Bayonetta as a role model

[terraswrath]

FYI I mentioned that I'm female because when people were bringing up points prior to this you were assuming that they were male and telling them that they weren't qualified to make an argument because of their gender. I observed this and didn't want you tarring me with the same brush because I agreed with them.

I've explained why my contribution centres around her sexuality - because she's a sexual character by design, and design is key to Eastern game development. The style of the characters fuse the physical and emotional and that's what compels so many gamers to JRPGs and the like. Your original argument was for Bayonetta to become a feminist icon, and I've explained why people are disagreeing with this notion - because of that focus on the physical, it blocks everything out that would have made the character's interactions really shine. The reason a large proportion of people who play the game are just going to react to her physical form is because that's what was marketed to them.

I've said before I agree with you that her personality does lend her to being more than just eye-candy, but I've also explained how it's foregone for the innuendo the game is laden with. Personally I felt the plot had much more potential, but it's all let down by leaving a cutscene that opens up character potential only to go back to the shallow fighting style. And unlike a cutscene it's always there, you can't ignore it, even have to focus on it to advance in the game (by employing her character to use those moves).

You missed my point completely about the character's existence. I wasn't insulting your perceptions of reality at all and I'm sorry that this thread has made you so defensive to have assumed as such (see where these assumptions come in?), I was pointing out that her presentation rests on the game development and how it has a bias towards objectification. You can't escape from that or retcon it to see her character as you want to see it in isolation of a yawning sexual promiscuity that extends to her glasses. This isn't Bayonetta being 'proud of herself'. These aspects of her physical form that were designed specifically to appeal to males. One male in particular. This is how she fails as a feminist icon.

I wasn't personally attacking you at all or coming in 'all guns blazing'. I was pointing flaws in your argument and trying to explain to you why people are inclined to disagree with you. Again, your last paragraph demonstrates my point of your reactions to opposition exactly. I don't agree with you, so I don't fully understand and I haven't read the thread properly, because I can't 'see' the justification in your argument. I have said before. I do. I just don't agree with you, and given my reasons why. Just because I focus on the physical aspects of her character doesn't make my argument invalid, particularly when the game itself is driven by gorgeous visuals and striking models that Kamiya is famous for. Aren't you 'missing the point' yourself by only wanting to focus on her personality?

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I have to say that I disagree. Bayonetta is a caricature of a person, and caricatures don't make for particularly good role-models. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about her as a female character. I mean even her clothes and accessories have more originality to them than she does as a person (im a fan of the gun-heeled shoes).

No Bayonetta, I actually don't want to touch you, as long as I don't have a ten foot pole at hand that is. You are too much of a tired cliché...

 

[Rachel317]

snip

Hell yes, I completely understand she was originally created to act as fan service. That's an observation that is COMPLETELY unavoidable, and I don't disagree with you on that. As I say, whilst the sexual side of her personality was created for male gamers (predominantly), I like to see her as something more than that. I appreciate that you don't agree with my interpretation, and that's OK! I understand your reasoning for that.

Now that you've said you can see my point of view, then we have no real argument. I appreciate your point of view, and you get mine. The fact we disagree is why I created this topic in the first place!

As I say, I admit to instigating the sexuality discussion, and I do focus on that sometimes, for sure, because it's part of her personality. But that's also what I was hoping other people would do; look at the sexuality ALONGSIDE the other aspects of her. You have, so fair enough, your opinion is just as valid as mine. In reference to previous posts where I've questioned the qualification of the poster's contribution, even if a female gamer had said what they'd said without considering the points I had put forward, I would say the exact same thing. It just happened that it's mainly males who are contributing. If the topic was just "I like Bayonetta, do you?" and people only focused on sexuality, that would be fair enough. But when I've put in the effort to craft an argument, it's not fair to overlook it.

Maybe "feminist icon" is the wrong term, seen as how so many people have different views of what feminism is, so I thank you for pointing that out, and have clarified this in the original post. And if you've read the thread, maybe you can understand why I get defensive! I've already been personally attacked over this point of view, which isn't fair, especially when I haven't been aggressive or verbally abusive towards anyone for a differing opinion.

The thing about your post wasn't that I think you're "wrong" or anything like that (as I say, your opinion is as valid as mine), it was the "grow up" that got my back up. I found that slightly unfair as I'm just trying to justify my opinion by TRYING to educate people on WHY I think the way I do about Bayonetta. You can't say, "I don't fully understand your argument, but I disagree anyway, based on only one observation about Bayonetta" and expect me to not counter this.

To finish, I apologise that this has turned into a bit of an argument, that wasn't the intention. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, although I do understand your point of view.

 

[Rachel317]

I have to say that I disagree. Bayonetta is a caricature of a person, and caricatures don't make for particularly good role-models. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about her as a female character. I mean even her clothes and accessories have more originality to them than she does as a person (im a fan of the gun-heeled shoes).

No Bayonetta, I actually don't want to touch you, as long as I don't have a ten foot pole at hand that is. You are too much of a tired cliché...

Fair enough. I thought her personality was quite refreshing, it's not something I'm used to seeing in games.
Those shoes ARE awesome, though. The boots themselves are really nice, + a gun = freaking awesome.
I quite liked those leather arm things she had on too.

But I think most video game characters are caricatures, to a certain extent. I don't know about you, but I can't think of many "normal" characters :/

I thought her taunts were pretty funny. I suppose they had more creativity than Jeanne's "You mother f***er!", but yeah, sometimes they were a bit...cringey.
The "How do the Americans put it? Oh yes. Bust a cap in yo' ass" bit early on really gets me. I think it's the English accent which makes it so..."gah!!!"

 

[Sarcastic_Applause]

i was just thinking about this today; really bayonetta is one of the very few female characters i would recommend as a role model, there are so many moments where i think if women were to be like this then i'd go out more (apart from the whole gun slinging, killing angels thing; wouldnt want to get in front of her career. Bayonetta doesnt shy away from issues, rather just confronts them head on, she is open (to an extent), Strong willed, knows what she wants and will NOT be outspoken or have someone in her way.
"if you or anyone were to get in my way i'd have to... how do the americans put it? Oh yes! 'Bust a cap in yo ass'

Hell... Yes!

 

[Rachel317]

i was just thinking about this today; really bayonetta is one of the very few female characters i would recommend as a role model, there are so many moments where i think if women were to be like this then i'd go out more (apart from the whole gun slinging, killing angels thing; wouldnt want to get in front of her career. Bayonetta doesnt shy away from issues, rather just confronts them head on, she is open (to an extent), Strong willed, knows what she wants and will NOT be outspoken or have someone in her way.
"if you or anyone were to get in my way i'd have to... how do the americans put it? Oh yes! 'Bust a cap in yo ass'

Hell... Yes!

That bit always makes me cringe. English people should not try to be gangsta!!! Haha.
Still cool though. I would have liked to see more of the cut scenes fully animated. Some of them worked well with the film reel (Bay drawing on Luka's face with lipstick), but it seemed disjointed at times. What do you think of the plot? Everyone says it's either nonsensical, or too complex. I thought it was fantastic!

 

[terraswrath]

snip

To be honest it wasn't the discussion or you yourself I was saying 'grow up' to, it was the certain individuals in the discussion that were inclined to say those disagreeing in this thread were ignorant of equality. I'm sure you can see how absurd the notion that disagreeing over the suitability of a videogame character as an icon indicates you're anti-feminist, and why I would be insulted by that! I thought I'd clarified that in the paragraph preceding it, but clearly that isn't the case so I apologise.

Trust me when I say I didn't contribute to start an argument but add to the discussion in my own personal way. I felt that people were getting side-tracked and simplifying the argument I've presented by just saying she 'dresses like a whore' (to paraphrase) whereas that isn't the point at all. I've played the game and know very well Bayonetta isn't a whore, I just wish she wasn't so much fanservice! I wasn't trying to threaten your beliefs but as you've said, a feminist viewpoint isn't really appropriate looking at Bayonetta. I think that's why so many people were focusing on sexuality - because the development 'fan service' surrounding her is the fatal flaw in that argument. I think Bayonetta as simply a role model is a much more vibrant notion, and one I can get behind.

Hey look, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot - it seems both our hostilities were created through misunderstanding. I'm happy to agree to disagree now you see my point. Friends?

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Fair enough. I thought her personality was quite refreshing, it's not something I'm used to seeing in games.

Well that's part of what I consider to be unoriginal. It's kind of like they purposefully made Bayonetta "counter-cultural" for the sake of being counter-cultural. There's nothing especially original about that apporach, punk-music and the grass roots of heavy metal dabbled in that decades ago.

Also, as for strong yet sexual heroines being a "new" thing, haven't any of you ever seen Xena - The Warrior Princess? She was around in the 90´s already, and in my opinion she pulled of that "sexy/fighting" routine way better than Bayonetta does.

Bayonetta is just way too obvious, and, as I've said, counter-cultural for the sake of being counter-cultural. Which isn't particularly cool when you think about it. I mean the reason why many of the more memorable heavy metal and punk bands became recognized was due to the fact that they were composed by people who had ideas and messages who inadvertedly became counter-cultural to the current cultural values, more as an after effect than actual premeditation. Then AFTER them came the "posers" (like Kiss or Twisted Sister whose basic message was that they were nothing but attentiongrabbing whores).

And it's kind of the same thing here. Bayonetta is an attentiongrabbing poser only being counter-cultural for the sake of being counter-cultural.

It doesn't serve to portray a very "strong" or "powerful" image at all. It's more like that obnoxious teenage girl who has to be in everyones face because all she want is to be NOTICED!

So that's what I see when I see Bayonetta. She's desperately screaming at me to "notice" her, and the more she does it, the more I just ignore her.

Now I don't mean to sound cold or cruel or vicious here, but that's the way I am so that's how it all comes out. (yes, Bill Hicks quote, but we shared an uncannily similar mindset about many things)

Those shoes ARE awesome, though. The boots themselves are really nice, + a gun = freaking awesome.
I quite liked those leather arm things she had on too.

Of course they are. I mean I couldn't really help but be charmed by those shoes.

Not that im usually particularly inclined to discuss my sexual fetisches but im not going to shy away from admitting that I have a thing for women in high-heels. And aside from that im what you would call a gun enthusiast (if it can be fired, makes loud noises and cause destruction at what I point it at then I probably like it), and the almost dirty combination of the two just seemed incredibly "cute" and somehow personal to me. XD

It's just so sad that they have to be worn by such a boring lady like Bayonetta. : /

And it's pretty strange too, since the person who designed Bayonetta seems to be of some kind of kinship with myself if he (i think it was a guy) could invent something like gun-heeled shoes, and even a catchy name for the character (yes I like the name as well), but still fail to make the character interesting.

But I think most video game characters are caricatures, to a certain extent. I don't know about you, but I can't think of many "normal" characters :/

I could probably dig up a few. The thing is, the caricatures are usually serious attentionwhores by default. That's why you rarely come to think of more "normal" characters in any given game (the caricatures hog the spotlight pretty much all the time). And I doubt you'll find much in the way of "normal" in games like Bayonetta due to their obvious flamboyant nature.

Then again, a lot of j-rpgs and japanese action games suffer a bit from the over-keyed and flamboyant. It seems to be kind of ingrained in the japanese popular culture.

I thought her taunts were pretty funny. I suppose they had more creativity than Jeanne's "You mother f***er!", but yeah, sometimes they were a bit...cringey.
The "How do the Americans put it? Oh yes. Bust a cap in yo' ass" bit early on really gets me. I think it's the English accent which makes it so..."gah!!!"

Hehe, seriously, doesn't that line come from Guy Ritchie's movie "Snatch"?

Turkish: "Well then, why didn't you bust a cap in his ass, Tommy!?"

Tommy: "Are you saying I can't shoot?"

Turkish: "No Tommy, im not saying you can't shoot. I KNOW you can't shoot. What im saying is that six pound pice of shit stuck in your trousers would do more damage if you fed it to him."

Tommy: "Are you saying the gun doesn't fire?"

Turkish: "You've tried it?"

Tommy: *sitting in the passenger seat of the car a few minutes later making a stupid face as he braces for his heavy revolver to fire and it goes: ..."click!"*

Turkish: *completely unsurprised* "Woops!"

XD

Oh well, it's the first time I've heard the phrase in a rather british backdrop.

 

[Rachel317]

Well said... and I understand what you mean. But when a girl dresses in uncomfortable clothing that restricts movement simply to show off her body, it is hard not to jump to conclusions. If I see a girl in revealing clothes I can only assume she is either trying to appeal to guys, or being vain. I feel like it simplifies her as a character even if it can be overlooked.

Obviously Bayonetta is a fictional character, so this is some intense over-analysis coming up, but the fact that she is dressed like that makes her seem shallow. Sure, you could say that she is just confident, but it's hard to imagine that she didn't have a much more versatile outfit to do all that fighting in. I believe that basic idea goes through anyone's mind when they see her, and it demeans any other traits that she has.

Basically, I'm saying she could be considered a role model, but she would be a better role model if she dressed normal.

Possibly. Maybe it's more difficult to take her seriously; that's something I don't necessarily disagree with.
Thing is though, the outfit was made of hair, not leather, so how restricting IS hair, really?

See, that's what the sad thing is; if you saw a woman dressed like that, you'd make assumptions that could be wrong, but it's how society has imposed it's restrictions and expectations upon us. A woman MUST be craving male attention, rather than just "[liking] the little outfits."
Until women, and men for that matter, are able to explore their personalities and sexualities in whichever way they see fit, then this will always be an issue. Hell, I'm guilty of the same thing! If I see a woman done up to the nines, short skirt, fake tan, loads of make up, I automatically think "slut!", whereas she might like to dress like that even when she's alone.
If Bayonetta can be looked at as MORE than a sexual object, then she could help to dispel these sometimes unfair assumptions we hoist upon others. I think that's probably what my whole argument comes down to.

To be honest it wasn't the discussion or you yourself I was saying 'grow up' to, it was the certain individuals in the discussion that were inclined to say those disagreeing in this thread were ignorant of equality. I'm sure you can see how absurd the notion that disagreeing over the suitability of a videogame character as an icon indicates you're anti-feminist, and why I would be insulted by that! I thought I'd clarified that in the paragraph preceding it, but clearly that isn't the case so I apologise.

Of course! If people think she sucks as a role model after considering her strengths, then that's fair enough. Everyone has their own opinion of feminism, nd how it should be tackled. I think sexuality is a big weapon that women/feminists have, whereas others might think it's more about independence or intelligence or...whatever else!
Sorry if you thought I was insinuating this anti-feminist notion.

Trust me when I say I didn't contribute to start an argument but add to the discussion in my own personal way. I felt that people were getting side-tracked and simplifying the argument I've presented by just saying she 'dresses like a whore' (to paraphrase) whereas that isn't the point at all. I've played the game and know very well Bayonetta isn't a whore, I just wish she wasn't so much fanservice! I wasn't trying to threaten your beliefs but as you've said, a feminist viewpoint isn't really appropriate looking at Bayonetta. I think that's why so many people were focusing on sexuality - because the development 'fan service' surrounding her is the fatal flaw in that argument. I think Bayonetta as simply a role model is a much more vibrant notion, and one I can get behind.

I agree with this, actually. As much as I think the sexuality is great, we both know who it's targeted at. I wish she was sexual on her on merits rather than fan service, but that's a difficult thing to present in a game. How do you think they could rectify this? I like the idea of her clothes coming off, but maybe if the outfit wasn't so tight? If they want to present her as a sexually dominant character, then they can't help but market her to randy teens, because gaming is still male orientated

Hey look, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot - it seems both our hostilities were created through misunderstanding. I'm happy to agree to disagree now you see my point. Friends?

Absolutely! I was getting tired of countering the "Have you seen the size of her legs?!?! ZOMG!!!!!!11111" comments

1)Bayonetta flaunts her intelligence whenever she can, just to belittle Luka.

When? I don't recall her ever belittling Luka. In fact, he was the one constantly belittling her, with his accusations.

2)Bayonettas "friendship" with Luka is purely GUILT-based. She killed his Dad!

Have you played the game? If not, I don't want to spoil anything, but there is opposition to this point.
Even if she did kill the dad, wouldn't it have been easier to kill Luka too, than have himm dogging her? But she doesn't, even though she could easily get rid of him with no evidence. She's inherently a good character.

3)Bayonetta is NOT sexually confident... She's totally void of feminine modesty.

Hmm...I can see why you would assume this, but it's not exactly a rule that women should be modest. Why should they be? The time when women were meek, prudish and sexually repressed is (almost) long gone. There aren't any hard and fast rules as to how women should act, but the view that women should never talk about sex or acknowledge they have desires is quite an...old-fashioned, out-dated opinion. I'm very overly sexual (although not in the outwardly flirtatious way that Bayonetta is, but that mainly comes down to lacking her confidence than anything), but that doesn't mean that I cant be modest, or that I'm a slut, or that I'm wrong, right?
BIG differance![/quote]

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Everyone has their own opinion of feminism, nd how it should be tackled.

Yes, it should be tackled with a hard elbowjab to the side making it gasping for air and then you take the opportunity to curb-stomp it to death.

Don't mistake this sour comment of mine as being anti-equality or anything like that. In fact im one of the most fair and consequent pro-gender equality people I know.

It's just that I've come to be severely disillusioned by the ideology known as feminism and it's false claims to wish to promote gender equality. I happen to find gender equality to be a noble and quite logical pursuit, and it grinds my gears when som power hungry pseudo-nazi cunts hijacks that noble goal for their own nefarious purposes like they have done in so many countries already (especially in Sweden where I happen to live).

Thankfully you can be pro-gender equality without having to be a feminist. Feminism doesn't have copyright on the concept of gender equality, and I would even make such a bold claim as to say that feminism stopped being about gender equality decades ago. What you have now is a twisted perversion, designed to chastise and punish men collectively, even to such a degree where you do it in grade school against young boys while at the same time pave the way for womens careers through unfair and unequal affirmative action policies.

That's feminism for you. And until the day I see a substantial number of so called feminists who publicly protest against these policies, and actually denounce the actions of the power hungry cunts, im going to assume that the entire ideology of feminism if forever and irrevocably corrupt and should be opposed.

Pardon my french.

 

[Rachel317]

Well that's part of what I consider to be unoriginal. It's kind of like they purposefully made Bayonetta "counter-cultural" for the sake of being counter-cultural. There's nothing especially original about that apporach, punk-music and the grass roots of heavy metal dabbled in that decades ago.

Hmm...I KINDA see your logic here. Just like she's sexual for the sake of being sexual, as opposed to it doing any great service for women. I DO see where you're coming from. Maybe it's unoriginal in a "she's only original for being unoriginal" kind of way (yes, I know that makes NO sense), but in gaming itself, because it's not the average...I quite like her for it.
Meh, we shall agree to disagree!

Also, as for strong yet sexual heroines being a "new" thing, haven't any of you ever seen Xena - The Warrior Princess? She was around in the 90´s already, and in my opinion she pulled of that "sexy/fighting" routine way better than Bayonetta does.

I must say, I haven't seen Xena. I know of her, though.
I don't deny that there are characters out there who could be described as better role models. I don't doubt that's true! But just as an example of (what I perceive to be) sexual confidence, oozing sex appeal, intelligence, wit and charm, I believe Bayonetta's a good character to look to. Obviously, if you don't see those things, or think they're nonsensical alongside her OTT sexuality, then you won't see her as a good example. Fair enough!

It doesn't serve to portray a very "strong" or "powerful" image at all. It's more like that obnoxious teenage girl who has to be in everyones face because all she want is to be NOTICED!
So that's what I see when I see Bayonetta. She's desperately screaming at me to "notice" her, and the more she does it, the more I just ignore her.

Meh, I can see why you'd say this too. I think she's a Love or Hate character, with no middle ground.
I think part of the problem probably stems from the current view society holds of women. It hasn't particularly progressed in recent years, even though everyone claims it has. Women are still meant to be meek and mild, downplaying sexual desire, etc, which is absolutely not the case.

And it's pretty strange too, since the person who designed Bayonetta seems to be of some kind of kinship with myself if he (i think it was a guy) could invent something like gun-heeled shoes, and even a catchy name for the character (yes I like the name as well), but still fail to make the character interesting.

The lead designer was actually a woman, but that's not to say she doesn't have a fetish for sexy librarian-goth-dominatrices!
Bayonetta IS a cool name. I read a yahoo thing about someone asking whether they should call their child that Everyone was like, "Nooooooooooo, you asshole!!!"
I'd call a child Cereza (beautiful name, IMO), but not Bayonetta! Imagine how picked on the poor girl would be

snip

I completely understand what you're saying. It would seem that feminism has been hi-jacked in order to gain dominance, as opposed to equality.
That's why I emphasised my beliefs on this in the original post; I don't want to be classed as the same. Germaine Greer seems proud of that fact that she's been an "adulteress all [her] life", and I just thought...how feminist can you be, if you're shagging the partner of another woman?

It's just that I've come to be severely disillusioned by the ideology known as feminism and it's false claims to wish to promote gender equality. I happen to find gender equality to be a noble and quite logical pursuit, and it grinds my gears when som power hungry pseudo-nazi cunts hijacks that noble goal for their own nefarious purposes like they have done in so many countries already (especially in Sweden where I happen to live).

Yes, you know, the "I don't need a man!" "feminists" annoy me. If it's all about equality, why do they agree with isolation, separation, and segregation?

That's feminism for you. And until the day I see a substantial number of so called feminists who publicly protest against these policies, and actually denounce the actions of the power hungry cunts, im going to assume that the entire ideology of feminism if forever and irrevocably corrupt and should be opposed.

Pardon my french.

French pardoned! Again, I completely agree. I DO believe that sexuality is a BIG player when it comes to feminism. Yes, men have their own sexuality, but it's not nearly explored as much as women's, in most aspects of life. Feminism as in striving for equality can only ever be a good thing. Even in the current time, women still don't earn as much as men (in certain areas of the world, and business), women are still looked upon as the "fairer sex"...

But, I think what it really comes down to, is that SOME women are all for equality...when it suits them. What I mean, is that they expect to get the same wages, yet still want chivalry. They want to be seen as more than just the "mother" or "housekeeper", but still want a man to pay for their dates, clothes, and other such things. Not ALL women, mind you. I'm not trying to generalise TOO much here, but SOME women are like this. I KNOW women like this

 

[captaincabbage]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

lol I was going to post loltits as well, but then I read and I came out the same as you.

Also, you have an EPIC avatar.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I must say, I haven't seen Xena. I know of her, though.

:O

Lucy Lawless in leather armour and a sword beating all manner of mythical creatures from Greek mythology with just as much ferocity (although unfortunately with a lot less bloodshed) as dear old Kratos from the God of War series is a spectacle that should be enjoyed by everyone before they die.

Of course it's not a series that takes itself very serious all the time, but that's part of the appeal. If you're gonna re-write pretty much every part of Greek mythology then you can't really do it with a straight face, wouldn't you agree?

Meh, I can see why you'd say this too. I think she's a Love or Hate character, with no middle ground.

Probably. I should know being pretty much a Love or Hate character myself. (mostly Hate though, but that's beside the point) XD

I think part of the problem probably stems from the current view society holds of women. It hasn't particularly progressed in recent years, even though everyone claims it has. Women are still meant to be meek and mild, downplaying sexual desire, etc, which is absolutely not the case.

That's all very possible but I have to say that im more a product of the progressed ideals of society than conservative.

In my eyes, hypersexualized women are just boring clichés. I've simply grown too used to it. And I've also grown used to the popular views of sex in the modern climate. It's like people are like single-minded apes only looking to score the next fuck.

I had an encounter with a girl pretty recently who was completely surprised that I'd actually displayed interest in her personality and her thoughts about things not related to sex. It was like the concept was completely alien to her.

And it's this mentality of "just because it's modern times and we CAN do something, we have to OVERDO things" which is quickly becoming a cliché in my eyes. It's one of the many things which makes me into the misanthropic prick that I am most of the time.

I just thought I should tell you that. It's not really an issue (in my case at least) of my view of women or women ideals being conservative or anything. It's more of an issue where I've encountered the "new" and "progressed" mindset far too many times and it's made me disillusioned and bored.

Too much bullshit and bravado, and very little substance and realism. Even in REAL people. Weird, isn't it?

The lead designer was actually a woman, but that's not to say she doesn't have a fetish for sexy librarian-goth-dominatrices!

Okay, im not going to cite any sources now simply because I don't remember where I read it, but from what I had read, the designer of Bayonetta was a man who basically invented his version of the ideal woman or something like that. But I could be wrongly informed so im not going to make any final statements about it.

Bayonetta IS a cool name. I read a yahoo thing about someone asking whether they should call their child that Everyone was like, "Nooooooooooo, you asshole!!!"
I'd call a child Cereza (beautiful name, IMO), but not Bayonetta! Imagine how picked on the poor girl would be

Bah! Kids are monsters protected by prejudicial concepts about innocence. They will always find a reason to pick on someone if they can, so worrying about a name seems kind of redundant.

Eve if a kid gets picked on, most of them grow up and have to grow stronger from the ordeal. Also they often become very independent individuals with sound and fair values since they have had first hand experience with obnoxious and unfair people before. (I guess im speaking a bit from personal experience here)

High pressure might crush pieces of coal, but it can also result in diamonds.

I completely understand what you're saying. It would seem that feminism has been hi-jacked in order to gain dominance, as opposed to equality.
That's why I emphasised my beliefs on this in the original post; I don't want to be classed as the same. Germaine Greer seems proud of that fact that she's been an "adulteress all [her] life", and I just thought...how feminist can you be, if you're shagging the partner of another woman?

Splendid. Then I think I can assume that we at least have similar values. It's just that I want to dissasociate myself from feminism altogether, despite being pro-gender equality.

I don't believe in trying to repair sinking ships.

Yes, you know, the "I don't need a man!" "feminists" annoy me. If it's all about equality, why do they agree with isolation, separation, and segregation?

And worst of all: discrimination?

You'd think that the gender having a long history of gender discrimination being the gender who fully opposes unfair discrimination in all it's forms. Yet still you see the same people cheering along when the government tries to impose affirmative action policies with the goal of "helping" poor and useless women to more prominent positions in schools and the job market.

I mean isn't one of the core beliefes of gender equality that women are just as capable as men to perform a wide variety of jobs, and that they are equally competitive on the job market? Yet they propose that the government should step in and help all those "damsels in distress" who just blame their lousy situation on fantasy-enemies like "patriarch structures"?

It's easier to just blame poorly proven conspiracies than to actually work your way to a decent career and demand that the government hands you your career on a silver platter, right? And thus inadvertedly promoting discrimination against men. Companies and institutions are forced by the government to hire a set quota of women and men, ultimately leading to cases where a male applicant might be a lot more educated and competent for the task, but getting rejected because the institution in question HAD TO hire a woman to fill that slot.

But then again, unfair discrimination is only bad when it happens to women, right?

Grrr, fucking feminists.

French pardoned! Again, I completely agree. I DO believe that sexuality is a BIG player when it comes to feminism. Yes, men have their own sexuality, but it's not nearly explored as much as women's, in most aspects of life.

Nope. Male sexuality just gets written off as being rape by nature instead. Ain't life grand?

Feminism as in striving for equality can only ever be a good thing. Even in the current time, women still don't earn as much as men (in certain areas of the world, and business), women are still looked upon as the "fairer sex"...

Well personally I don't consider it an inherent bad thing that women don't make as much as men.

I mean, yes the statistics say that men make more money than women. However, if there is one thing that statistics are pretty lousy at doing is proving WHY a situation looks like it does. Mostly, statistics only show HOW a situation looks.

Most feminists have chosen to interpret said statistics as a clear sign that the western world is afflicted by patriarchal structures serving to hold women down from realizing their true potential. BUT when said feminists are asked to present evidence for their conspiracy theories, none can come up with anything substantial. Yet they are strongly convinced that differences in salaries are obvious signs of gender discrimination.

One could wonder if these women have ever been to a job interview and learned of the fact that when it comes to salary, a shitload of private companies and governmental institutions practice salary negotiations. And more importantly, there are statistics showing that a lot of women go for significantly lower pay during these negotiations than men do.

Why this happens is up for debate, but if we're for gender equality here and opposed to gender discrimination, wouldn't a more reasonable course of action be to try to educate women during critical stages in their lives to value their work effort higher and how to successfully negotiate higher pay grades during job interviews? Instead of using the government to force private companies to use a more discriminatory policy when hiring and paying people?

Which of these courses of action do you think seem like siezure of power as opposed to reasonable and progressive policy?

But, I think what it really comes down to, is that SOME women are all for equality...when it suits them. What I mean, is that they expect to get the same wages, yet still want chivalry. They want to be seen as more than just the "mother" or "housekeeper", but still want a man to pay for their dates, clothes, and other such things. Not ALL women, mind you. I'm not trying to generalise TOO much here, but SOME women are like this. I KNOW women like this

I know exactly which you are refering to, and trust me when I say that they make me want to puke.

 

[hazabaza1]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

lol I was going to post loltits as well, but then I read and I came out the same as you.

Also, you have an EPIC avatar.

Why thank you!
Though I should probably thank the Avatar group on the Escapist, nice fellas them.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I have to agree with much of what the TC says. I think Bayonetta is a great character (also my 2010 GOTY); her character is kinda like the female version of Ash from Evil Dead II and Army of Darkness. Her sexuality is played for laughs just like how Ash's one-liners towards women are. Why can't female character's be like their macho male counterparts (e.g. Ash, Duke Nukem, etc.)? Isn't the real reason for the aforementioned male characters treating women the way they do is so they can get a feel for whether a women is into them without looking like they got rejected?

I'm not sure if Bayonetta can be seen as a feminism icon just because lots of scenes and interactions are played for laughs. Also, due to a friend of mine, I see feminism as a bad thing because she's all about the I hate men thing and everything, and extremely opinionated to a fault. I have nothing against equality for anyone, but my friend is always trying to put guys down just to do it. For example, she got on me one time for not knowing what person originated some concept (some kind of "ism") even though I knew exactly what the concept was and how to apply it, which IMO is far more important than knowing who came up with it.

What I do love about Bayonetta is that she doesn't play any games like most women. You are going to know if she does like you or not, she's not going to sit in a corner and wait for you to come up to her. I think the thing is that most women seem to believe they are entitled to be in the position of being asked out and they want equality. The man is expected to put himself out there and the female is the one reacting. Constantly being in that superior position will cost you equality other areas. I think a relationship with Bayonetta would reach that "serious" stage when she becomes comfortable and LETS you take the lead whereas the guy normally has that position from the very beginning.

Bayonetta is also a strong moral character. She does the right thing while acting like she doesn't want to, and you know she wants to because she goes out of her way to do the right thing. She just doesn't want to show any weakness because doing the right thing usually puts you in a more vulnerable situation than the wrong thing.

Lastly, Bayonetta is just that kind of person you'd like to be around whether it's just as friends or something more. She wears her emotions on her sleeves and she's not going to play any games.

Coming back to the feminism part. I think Bayonetta is just showing you that women have the ability to be the kind of person she is NOT that they have to or should be. Some people are just more reserved than others whether male or female. Just be who you are and not let society tell you how to be. I'm positive the game wasn't intended to be some kind of commentary on this kind of stuff but a lot times you get a more sincere and applicable message when a piece of art (movies, music, games, etc.) doesn't purposefully try to have some kind of social commentary.

 

[Rachel317]

In my eyes, hypersexualized women are just boring clichés. I've simply grown too used to it. And I've also grown used to the popular views of sex in the modern climate. It's like people are like single-minded apes only looking to score the next fuck.

Too much bullshit and bravado, and very little substance and realism. Even in REAL people. Weird, isn't it?

I must say, your story was unusual, to say the least. These highly sexual women...I've not really had the pleasure of dealing with one who wasn't just trying to get the attention of men, which is where some of m concern stems from. It's a shame that women are surprised by your approach, but if everyone (even women themselves) see their actions as a means of "getting" a man, then there isn't any real progression.

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite overly sexual most of the time (although not in the outwardly flirtatious way that Bayonetta is, but that's due to lacking her confidence more than anything), but it's NOT for anyone else but myself, because It's the way I am. When more women are able to act how THEY want to without having to think about how their actions re being perceived, then this issue will still exist. Same goes for men, but I think perhaps to a lesser extent?

Okay, im not going to cite any sources now simply because I don't remember where I read it, but from what I had read, the designer of Bayonetta was a mwho basically invented his version of the ideal woman or something like that. But I could be wrongly informed so im not going to make any final statements about it.

The lead animator is a man (the one who wanted the "perfectly sculpted ass") is a man, but it was a woman who originally designed Bayonetta. Kimaya (spelling) wanted glasses and yadda yadda, so she put them in.

Bah! Kids are monsters protected by prejudicial concepts about innocence. They will always find a reason to pick on someone if they can, so worrying about a name seems kind of redundant.

True...but do you want to make a child a bigger target, or a smaller one?
It can make a child stronger, but it can also damage them beyond repair. It's a fine line. I'm all for unusual names, but Bayonetta is a relatively violent sounding name on its own, without the context of the game.

You'd think that the gender having a long history of gender discrimination being the gender who fully opposes unfair discrimination in all it's forms. Yet still you see the same people cheering along when the government tries to impose affirmative action policies with the goal of "helping" poor and useless women to more prominent positions in schools and the job market.

I will admit, I'm not familiar with all branches and philosophies of feminism, partly because I don't have the time, nor patience, to entertain everyone's individual/unique ideas of what feminism is but, yes, you'd think women more than anyone would understand the kind of suffering that goes along with repression.

But part of the problem...well, to give an actual example, I know people who will see a woman in a position of power and believe that she must have "fucked and sucked her way to the top". So, people STILL have this outdated view of women, and don't even realise they do!

Well personally I don't consider it an inherent bad thing that women don't make as much as men.

There ARE studies to show that women aren't as strong-willed in the negotiation stakes as men. This isn't being sexist at all, but you're right, often women DO accept lower wages.
However, this is, in part, also due to society's perception. If a man fights for a raise, he's a "go-getter". If a woman does the same, she's a "money grabbing *****". I wouldn't like to count how many times I've heard that. On the same note, a woman is a "gold-digger" if she dates an older man. However, a young man with an older woman is celebrated.

I'm not sure if Bayonetta can be seen as a feminism icon just because lots of scenes and interactions are played for laughs. Also, due to a friend of mine, I see feminism as a bad thing because she's all about the I hate men thing and everything, and extremely opinionated to a fault. I have nothing against equality for anyone, but my friend is always trying to put guys down just to do it. For example, she got on me one time for not knowing what person originated some concept (some kind of "ism") even though I knew exactly what the concept was and how to apply it, which IMO is far more important than knowing who came up with it.

It sounds like your friend is being highly unfair. You can agree with equality and not buy into the extremist feminist rubbish. Putting males down is exactly what has been happening to females for years, so you'd think women would understand the implications of repression, and avoid dong it to others!
I mean, it's never going to get to the point where men ARE repressed; they own too much of the media, and have more control over the world's economy and politics than women. But TRYING to dominate is wrong as well. What happened, happened, there's no changing the past. Black people don't try to dominate White people. The Jews don't try to kill all of the Germans. Sure, bad feelings are still harboured by some, but repeating the mistakes of the past isn't the way forward.

What I do love about Bayonetta is that she doesn't play any games like most women. You are going to know if she does like you or not, she's not going to sit in a corner and wait for you to come up to her. I think the thing is that most women seem to believe they are entitled to be in the position of being asked out and they want equality. The man is expected to put himself out there and the female is the one reacting. Constantly being in that superior position will cost you equality other areas. I think a relationship with Bayonetta would reach that "serious" stage when she becomes comfortable and LETS you take the lead whereas the guy normally has that position from the very beginning.

Oh yes, some women still want chivalry, yet also equality. The two...they CAN both be entertained, but women have to give something back as well. I don't know, maybe men LIKE to be the pursuer? But that's difficult, because if it's unwanted attention, it's harrassment, but a woman wont necessarily tell you this; possibly due to fear over her safety, or whatever else. This is a two way street; women need to realise that it'd be easier if they were more forthright, but men must realise that women flirt for the sake of it, it's not necessarily specifically to attract a man's attention. As I say, until both genders can explore their sexualities in a way they see fit, without hinderance or discrimination of any kind, then the issues will still exist.

Bayonetta is also a strong moral character. She does the right thing while acting like she doesn't want to, and you know she wants to because she goes out of her way to do the right thing. She just doesn't want to show any weakness because doing the right thing usually puts you in a more vulnerable situation than the wrong thing.

Lastly, Bayonetta is just that kind of person you'd like to be around whether it's just as friends or something more. She wears her emotions on her sleeves and she's not going to play any games.

This...is so perfectly said. Would you mind if I quote this in the original post? I hadn't even gone into the morality thing, but this is just so perfectly worded.
And...I'd be friends with her! I don't like the women who go out, high heels, short skirts, breasts hanging out, troweled on make up when she has an agenda. It's just so fake! But I have utmost respect for women who are sexually confident, like Bayonetta, when it's part of their character, and that's who they REALLY are, not just a fantasized version of themselves in order to get male attention. Could not agree more.

Coming back to the feminism part. I think Bayonetta is just showing you that women have the ability to be the kind of person she is NOT that they have to or should be. Some people are just more reserved than others whether male or female. Just be who you are and not let society tell you how to be. I'm positive the game wasn't intended to be some kind of commentary on this kind of stuff but a lot times you get a more sincere and applicable message when a piece of art (movies, music, games, etc.) doesn't purposefully try to have some kind of social commentary.

Exactly; looking deeper into a character is where you find all the good stuff. Sexuality for the sake of being sexual is fine, but if some people are able to read more into it, then that's fine too. Again, would you mind if I use this segment in the original post too?
You've perfectly summed up my feelings on the matter, AND added to it!

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I must say, your story was unusual, to say the least. These highly sexual women...I've not really had the pleasure of dealing with one who wasn't just trying to get the attention of men, which is where some of m concern stems from. It's a shame that women are surprised by your approach, but if everyone (even women themselves) see their actions as a means of "getting" a man, then there isn't any real progression.

Well, im no really going to speculate why they act the way they do. But atentiongrabbing must certainly have come into it somehow. Then again, you pretty much have to get peoples attention if you're a sexual person.

After all, if you want to score with someone it's going to be pretty difficult to do that if you can't even get their attention. That goes for both men and women.

So I guess my main gripe isn't really that horny people try to get attention in order to score. What makes me cynical and bored is the fact that the current culture seem to breed people into thinking of nothing else but scoring with the next person.

I mean, there's an entire UNIVERSE out there for fuck sake, but these people couldn't care less about anything outside of how they are going to be percieved as attractive in the eyes of others.

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite overly sexual most of the time (although not in the outwardly flirtatious way that Bayonetta is, but that's due to lacking her confidence more than anything), but it's NOT for anyone else but myself, because It's the way I am. When more women are able to act how THEY want to without having to think about how their actions re being perceived, then this issue will still exist. Same goes for men, but I think perhaps to a lesser extent?

Well, I have to say that I think the progression towards not caring to much about how you will be percieved by your action is a personal/"spiritual" journey which is kind of impossible to promote or enforce on a political scale.

Basically, if you're an insecure person who spend way too much time thinking about what other people think of you then you pretty much have to pull your shit together and learn that it's not going to be the end of the world if someone dislike you or have gotten the wrong impression of you.

But I guess it can be hard for many to think like that. It sure did take a ouple of years for me to mature in that department, and it involved going through some pretty painful crap too.

But nowadays I mostly think: "Meh! There's almost seven billion people on this planet. I think I'll treasure the attention and relationships of those who actually BOTHER to get to know me as a person, instead of pretty much basing their entire image of me on shifty first impressions and prejudice."

And the truth of the matter is that there is nothing standing in the way for women to adopt a similar train of thought and living according to it. Aside from their own mental blockages and certain social needs (that may or may not be exaggerated depending on which type of person we're talking about).

The lead animator is a man (the one who wanted the "perfectly sculpted ass") is a man, but it was a woman who originally designed Bayonetta. Kimaya (spelling) wanted glasses and yadda yadda, so she put them in.

That sounds more familiar.

True...but do you want to make a child a bigger target, or a smaller one?
It can make a child stronger, but it can also damage them beyond repair. It's a fine line. I'm all for unusual names, but Bayonetta is a relatively violent sounding name on its own, without the context of the game.

I don't believe in trying to conform after the rules of school bullies. I did spend a hefty part of my schoolyears fighting them and standing up for myself after all. So the idea of doing something with the hopes of "not being a target" seems very counter-productive to me.

In that regard, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to adopt children either because someone might pick on the children because they have homosexual parents. Bullies are supposed to be fought and put in place, not obeyed and feared.

I will admit, I'm not familiar with all branches and philosophies of feminism, partly because I don't have the time, nor patience, to entertain everyone's individual/unique ideas of what feminism is but, yes, you'd think women more than anyone would understand the kind of suffering that goes along with repression.

But part of the problem...well, to give an actual example, I know people who will see a woman in a position of power and believe that she must have "fucked and sucked her way to the top". So, people STILL have this outdated view of women, and don't even realise they do!

I know. But I think it's the wrong way to go when using such a ham-fisted political method as affirmative action (i.e gender discrimination) like they have done on many occasions here in Sweden.

I mean, all you'll do by favouring women over men through the government is basically supplanting the views that a woman sucked and fucked her way to the top with the image that the woman basically got the position handed to her on a silver platter without the least bit of effort. Either way, she's not very likely to get any respect.

So if one wants to work towards progression and changing people's outdated views of women in different workplaces, then you must use other methods while still letting women compete on the exact same terms as men do.

Also, women have to learn that their biological make-up WILL MOST LIKELY make them lesser suited for certain jobs. Like being a fire-fighter for instance. You need to be very strong in such a line of work, not only because the job will involve heavy lifting but because people's lives are dependant on you being able to get them out of a burning building. If you don't have sufficient strength then that means that you might not be able to aid those in need in time and people could die as a result.

This doesn't mean that women should be forbidden to go for a career as fire-fighters, BUT it's downright idiotic to do the way they have done here, where they actually let women take EASIER physical fitness tests than the men, because the women "can't be expected to pass" the physical exams that the men have to. :S

The same have been done in the military and the police. They are basically letting inferior people work as these civil servants who are supposed to safeguard the laws, rights and safety of our citizens.

Really how is that on par with "gender equaliy" when women get a lot more slack when they try to get a job in these types of professions, but the men still have to prove themselves even more? It isn't, of course.

And the fact that women get free passes like this only serves to diminish the public view of women in the workplace. IF women had to take just as hard physical fitness tests and exams as men in training to become soldiers, policemen or fire-fighters, then yes there would most likely be a lot fewer women in these professions. But people wouldn't go around thinking that these women who do make it have only gotten there because "papa government" ruled by the word of the femi-nazis gave them an easier time and a lot more free passes.

But the feminists of this country doesn't get that. They think it is better to downgrade the quality of the workers in the policeforce and the fire-fighter departments with the sole goal of getting more women to work there. Thus ulimately making all of society suffer for their perverted and twisted version of "gender equality".

There ARE studies to show that women aren't as strong-willed in the negotiation stakes as men. This isn't being sexist at all, but you're right, often women DO accept lower wages.
However, this is, in part, also due to society's perception. If a man fights for a raise, he's a "go-getter". If a woman does the same, she's a "money grabbing *****".

Well, the thing is if more women acted like "money grabbing bitches" when it comes to salary negotiations, society would sooner or later get used to the "crazy notion" that women want to be paid as much as possible for their work, just like the men do.

Also, if you think about it, don't you think that women who basically only sit and complain about salary differences come off more as "money grabbing bitches" while at the same time not showing the least bit of effort in trying to work harder, than women who don't ***** too much about the situation but still asks for higher pay with confidence?

It's not very unreasonable to assume that if women learn to become better negotiators (which is pretty ironic considering that one of the most conservative and traditional views is that women ARE some of the top negotiators, if you consider myths that they use their words instead of their fists and "if the world was ruled by women, there would be no wars" and similar nonsense) then they will be percieved as.. Well, better negotiators.

The "money grabbing *****" perspective seems to arise when the "*****" in question is trying to get her hands on money that she doesn't deserve in the first place.

I wouldn't like to count how many times I've heard that. On the same note, a woman is a "gold-digger" if she dates an older man. However, a young man with an older woman is celebrated.

Well, that stigma goes both ways you know. If people see a guy dating a younger woman then you can be damn sure that a lot of women are going to see him as some kind of pervert who "can't get a woman his own age" and this without having the slightest information about how that particular relationship came to be.

At the same ime you have women in their forties hanging out wih boytoy's half their age, but all these women get is cheers and "you go girl!" from other women.

Another popular prejudice over here is when women see men dating women with asian features. Everyone basically assume that the asian girl is an "imported wife" enslaved against her will to be that man's sex-toy and housekeeper, and the man is looked down upon.

So in that regard, the door swings both ways. And one side isn't very likely to stop unless the other does first...

 

[Rachel317]

So I guess my main gripe isn't really that horny people try to get attention in order to score. What makes me cynical and bored is the fact that the current culture seem to breed people into thinking of nothing else but scoring with the next person.

I mean, there's an entire UNIVERSE out there for fuck sake, but these people couldn't care less about anything outside of how they are going to be percieved as attractive in the eyes of others.

Totally understand this. Women (and men) who are sexually open for the sake of it are fine, but the ones who ONLY do it to get laid...well, this is where the stereotypes come in. So I, although not at all interested in "getting a man", yadda yadda, get tarred with the same brush as someone who is purely sex-driven. Nothing necessarily wrong with being that way, but it sure doesnt help the rest of us who are sexually open but who also have other sides to their personalities.
It's largely the same in the UK, you go to nightclubs to "pull", not to dance and enjoy yourself. Because the current generation believes itself to be largely unrepressed sexually, they see it as a free-for-all, and put all of their efforts into sex. Well, what's the harm in oozing sexuality, but not acting upon it at any given moment? Women/men who COULD have sex whenever they want, but don't, get a lot of respect from me.

Well, I have to say that I think the progression towards not caring to much about how you will be percieved by your action is a personal/"spiritual" journey which is kind of impossible to promote or enforce on a political scale.
Basically, if you're an insecure person who spend way too much time thinking about what other people think of you then you pretty much have to pull your shit together and learn that it's not going to be the end of the world if someone dislike you or have gotten the wrong impression of you.
But I guess it can be hard for many to think like that. It sure did take a ouple of years for me to mature in that department, and it involved going through some pretty painful crap too.

Don't get me wrong, I know a national change of ideals isn't going to happen. Humans are largely shallow and judgemental, so even if things were to change, more stereotypes would come about in place of the old ones. This is a journey I'm currently undertaking, and it's nice to think that characters like Bayonetta, when you look past the original intentions of her creation, could help MORE women and young girls realise that there ARE alternative routes to take with their lives and personalities. If you really think about it, other than the clothes flying off, Bayonetta isn't particularly sexual - her normal speech isn't sex-orientated, sure she has the sexy walk but there's no actual reference to sex specifically, it's all insinuatiopn and suggestion.

I'm sorry you've had to go through some hard times. It sounds like you came out of it a better person, though?

But nowadays I mostly think: "Meh! There's almost seven billion people on this planet. I think I'll treasure the attention and relationships of those who actually BOTHER to get to know me as a person, instead of pretty much basing their entire image of me on shifty first impressions and prejudice."

Excellent point. Of course, I'm not saying ALL women should act like Bayonetta, especially if that's not howl they really are. I don't propose that people should be fake to fit into THIS personality type, just that you CAN be whoever you want to be, and you SHOULD be free from judgement. Of course, people will judge, but when you truly get to the stage where you can do something, or act in a certain way, for YOURSELF above all else, then I think people will become much more comfortable, and some of the stereotypes and judgements will begin to be alleviated.

And the truth of the matter is that there is nothing standing in the way for women to adopt a similar train of thought and living according to it. Aside from their own mental blockages and certain social needs (that may or may not be exaggerated depending on which type of person we're talking about).

Exactly! If it's seen in practice, then perhaps more women will realise that it's OK to act how they want to act. Unfortunately, social conditioning is a HUGE obstacle when it comes to this, and the fact that some people might be scared of being judged. But if I can say, "To hell with all of the people who don't approve", then I'm SURE there are other men and women out there who can, too.

I don't believe in trying to conform after the rules of school bullies. I did spend a hefty part of my schoolyears fighting them and standing up for myself after all. So the idea of doing something with the hopes of "not being a target" seems very counter-productive to me.

In that regard, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to adopt children either because someone might pick on the children because they have homosexual parents. Bullies are supposed to be fought and put in place, not obeyed and feared.

...I hadn't thought of this. Great point! Again, it comes down partly to other peoples' judgements, and that's not something we'll overcome very soon.
But yes, I suppose it must be a case if doing something that YOU feel is right, not listening to those who don't necessarily know ANY better.

I mean, all you'll do by favouring women over men through the government is basically supplanting the views that a woman sucked and fucked her way to the top with the image that the woman basically got the position handed to her on a silver platter without the least bit of effort. Either way, she's not very likely to get any respect.

If a woman HAS worked for her position, then she should be commended for it. But I absolutely agree with you, and actually made a similar point to what you said earlier today (before I read your reply). It's NOT equality if there's a "quota" to fill, it's not equality if someone holds a position that is completely out of their understanding and ability. Businesses supposedly have to present themselves as giving equal rights, but they undermine this whole concept by giving women jobs BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO, not because those women are capable of doing said job.
As you say, female firefighters...why shouldn't women have to be as fit and capable as the males for this kind of job? Of course they should! And this is what undermines the whole, "We're all for equal rights" rubbish. Well...I'd rather see a firefighting team of 5 men than 20 women, if the males are more capable at doing their jobs properly.

Money grabbing snip

Hell, I don't see those women as money grabbing in the first place. If they deserve a higher wage, then they're fully entitled to it.
Even if a woman does deserve it, they're still negatively viewed, at least here in the UK. It might be different in Sweden, but there's still a stigma surrounding women earning much in part, I would imagine, due to the fact that men have always been seen as the "bread-winners". These women ARE turning the stereotypes on their heads, but are still with the next stereotype that was linked too closely to the first.

Well, that stigma goes both ways you know. If people see a guy dating a younger woman then you can be damn sure that a lot of women are going to see him as some kind of pervert who "can't get a woman his own age" and this without having the slightest information about how that particular relationship came to be.

Hmm...I suppose this could be true, in some circumstances. Honestly, I haven't really thought much on the toyboy debate, so can't really comment, but...it's probably more acceptable for an older man to date a younger woman than the other way around. But I think that comes down to things like Playboy (and Hugh Heffner) and all of these "trophy wives" people go on about. I suppose it stems from the Victorian era and earlier when a woman was expected to marry as early as possible to avoid being left on the shelf (still at ridiculously young ages - imagine not being married when you're 25. Normal now, right? Obviously, it hasn't always been that way).

Another popular prejudice over here is when women see men dating women with asian features. Everyone basically assume that the asian girl is an "imported wife" enslaved against her will to be that man's sex-toy and housekeeper, and the man is looked down upon.

So in that regard, the door swings both ways. And one side isn't very likely to stop unless the other does first...

Now this...this is sad. Are there not THAT many Asian women in Sweden? I assume that this is something not commonly seen? That's such an unfair assumption to make...it looks like every country is dogged with its own stereotypes and inaccurate judgements! This probably comes from the Thai-bride thing, the mail order wives...so at least it has SOME basis, but without knowing someone's specific circumstances, why is it fair to judge?

And yes, the biggest obstacle is that one thing will have to stop before another does, but that first thing can't stop until there is s general consensus that it's accurate and...gah! It's not something we're going to be done with in the next few years, but I'd like to think, again to bring it back to Bayonetta, That if women are better represented in games, we might get some REAL progression. Gaming's quite a niche medium, obviously, so the big changes won't come about within it, but maybe if developers weren't targeting horny young boys so much (during their most important time of development and opinion forming), it might help.

Of course, they won't stop though! That side of gaming is too big a market to not cater for.

 

[Plurralbles]

I liked your post and it wasn't a bad argument, but someone and everyone, should be shot for looking for role models in fictional media.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I haven't played much Bayonetta but... a feminist icon? I suspect we're talking about different games.