BioWare "Falsely Advertised" Mass Effect 3

Guardian of Nekops

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AnarchistAbe said:
Jokes on the gamers! Now, we'll get the same exact ending to every fucking game. The safe, happy ending that nobody has grounds to complain about. Thank you, "retakers". Thank you for your entitled douchebaggery.
If the advertisements promise hundreds of different endings which are profoundly affected by your choices throughout the entirety of the game series, and you release one ending that is the same with three different colors, then you have failed to deliver on what you promised. I don't care how happy that ending is, and neither do most of the other people whose arguments you are dismissing.

AnarchistAbe said:
Do you REALLY feel they deserved this? Games marketing ALWAYS promises more than the game could deliver. Why is Bioware being singled out?
Just because you're following the status quo doesn't mean that you aren't wrong. Did you happen to hear the recent news about that pink slime stuff that everyone's been putting in their ground meat? The fact that everyone was doing it didn't stop the outrage, nor should it have done so.

The fact that the first two games delivered on their promises, and that the game was excellent until the last fifteen minutes are also relevant here... this isn't a case of them promising more than they could do, or having more variables than they could keep track of. They've proved, time and time again, that they CAN produce a high level of excellence that takes into account a wide variety of player choices... and somehow, for some reason, they just decided not to in this case. Probably because they figured people would just roll over and take it, because it's only the ending.

This isn't a new developer proudly proclaiming, "This is going to be the best game ever!" and finding that they can't back it up. That's easily forgiven. This is a great team, with great writers who have put an obscene amount of time into an excellent game, that suddenly decided to cap off their masterpiece with a big pile of lazy... right at the point of the game that's designed to be what you remember, the part that, more than any other, leaves a taste in your mouth.

Oh, and it's also the part of the game that reviewers don't get to until it's too late... the part of the game that can suck and still give your day-one customers (aka, your most loyal customers, who form the core of those complaining here) no warning before they hand over their cash.
 

Still Life

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Knight Templar said:
That's more than a little insulting.
And yet it is the truth.

I have no problem with people formulating arguments as to why/why not they were satisfied with the conclusion of ME3. I think there are valid points underneath all that vitriol.

However, much of the legitimate points have been hijacked by a mob-mentality and so I do not give a flying fuck if the truth is 'insulting'.
 

viranimus

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Ok as for qualifications? The simple ability to read and comprehend what I have read along with the ability to watch the example provided illustrating what the "promise" meant. Thats really all I need to fall back on, but if you wish I can break out a further elaboration.

Beyond that, qualifications relate to studying the human mind all my life and studying human psychology and sociology for half a decade now to understand human action and reaction as well as patterns and tendencies. I have minored in Educational arts with a focus on adult education . This course curriculum is rounded out with training in Marketing and Persuasion, Philosophy, English Lit, Law, etc. I have other qualifications as well but not specifically relevant to the context of marketing or advertisement. I am roughly 20 credit hours away from earning my Psy.D and can become legally licensed to operate as a psychologist.

Basically I have focused on the study of human behavior, language, law, education, motivation and marketing.

Im not trying to sound arrogant, but I understand that I do by listing it out in such a manner. Just trying to clarify.

Shadowkire said:
I hope you don't mind me asking:
What are your qualifications for determining what is or what isn't false advertising?

I would take your word for it except you are writing things on the internet, and like the BBB the internet has a reputation for being filled with people who think they know what they are talking about when many eventually reveal they don't.

I do not mean any offense, just want to find out whether your statements are backed by either legal facts or some form of authority on the subject.





Well, you can do the research on your own. The BBB re certifies approval for business on a yearly basis. Now go back and look at corporations that were found guilty of federal offenses and shut down either temporarily or permanently and compare that to their BBB rating the year before and after it occurs.

For recent example, AT&T is now involved in yet another major lawsuit, in this case from the Department of Justice due to intentionally overcharging the govermnet for calls as of march of this year. Now this isnt a new instance. AT&T has over 20k complaints lodged against it with the BBB, some of which have been involved in major class action lawsuits, yet somehow the BBB ranking for AT&T is still only at a B and it is considered passing the BBB standards.

You would wonder why a company like AT&T who has a bad reputation and 20k major complaints lodged would still be able to retain a B rating?

BBB has determined that AT&T meets BBB accreditation standards, which include a commitment to make a good faith effort to resolve any consumer complaints. BBB Accredited Businesses pay a fee for accreditation review/monitoring and for support of BBB services to the public.
Yep, they get that rating because they pay for it.

The BBB is a sham and has been for years. I realized this when the organization I worked for in 2001 who dealt with consumer credit products had massive numbers of customers threatening to contact the BBB due to intentionally selling second chance credit to people who did not even quality for it (such as fictional chars, children, ) and targeted high risk clients and then corralled those customer accounts into inaccessible queues so as no collection efforts would be made on them. That way they could quickly and easily submit the charged off credit accounts for tax breaks and profit loss that way they end up earning more than what the account was actually worth. On the employee side of things, employees were expected to stay out of those queues, instructed to accept any promise over an actual offer of payment, and various other questionable tactics for collection of debt. Then the company was subjected to a lawsuit by the state against the two facilities in the state predominantly for employee related violations. They were in effect ran out of the state and no longer operate within the state and settled with the state to pay a nominal fine and high tailed out out back to their headquartered state of Delaware.

At no time did this organizations BBB rating ever drop below a B, Not the year before they were ran out of town, not the 3 years after exiting and settling to avoid a higher lawsuit.

The BBB is a scam to dupe ignorant consumers into trusting their opinions as valid, all the while taking in massive kick backs from companies to assure the public that the company is reputable.

I would have gone into much greater detail with more examples of transgressions, but I think these two are enough and really the information is readily available for people to research.

So in short, I have educational background to understand how humans think and act. I also have personal experience with the opinions of the BBB and how invalid they are based on independent research.

Edit: Wow, I did misread the question. I explained how the BBBs opinion is not valid. However, I have studied law to a limited extent as well as marketing, though only in the process of rounding out my course study. So not within high depth or detail, but Id say I likely have just about as much if not more understanding of marketing law as a BBB rep who cannot comprehend written text with a video illustration and cannot differentiate the difference between promises and peoples interpretation of promises made. But I am no more an bar certified marketing corporate lawyer than anyone else, But I can identify what a good one would be able to rip a case to shreds on.
 

Knight Templar

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Still Life said:
Knight Templar said:
That's more than a little insulting.
And yet it is the truth.

I have no problem with people formulating arguments as to why/why not they were satisfied with the conclusion of ME3. I think there are valid points underneath all that vitriol.

However, much of the legitimate points have been hijacked by a mob-mentality and so I do not give a flying fuck if the truth is 'insulting'.
I am not simply using buzzwords, I am not using any vitriol.
So there isn't any truth to using me as a jumping off point to make such statements.

It is both insulting and inaccurate because I was the one who Undeadpool was taling to.
 

Avalanche91

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Basically every company is guilty of this to a extend, but Mass Effect 3 had been anticipated since part 1, the story had 2 games to flesh itself out, and a lot of what was promised, especially in regards to the ending failed to deliver or wasn't delivered at all.
It's a unique scenario because Mass Effect 3 literally invalidates ALL you did for the past 3 games in the last 10 to 20 minutes of its finale.

If you only played part 3 without the previous games Mass Effect 3's ending will feel lackluster. If you played since part 1, the ending will feel infuriating, even betraying.

People are complaining this much because it's a unique ocassion. It doesn't happen often that a company with a relativly good image and loyal fanbase alienates it's fans so toroughly and in such a short timespan.

As for the whole legal practise surrounding it, part of me was actually hoping someone would be dumb enough to start a lawsuit. They'd probably lose, but it is a nice warning towards the industry. Customers hate being lied to.
 

Still Life

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Knight Templar said:
It is both insulting and inaccurate because I was the one who Undeadpool was taling to.
And I was making a broader point not aimed at you specifically. End of story.

Or, are you the face of a unified social movement?
 

back pain

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Kingsnake661 said:
TheBelgianGuy said:
Darkmantle said:
SweetLiquidSnake said:
Eric the Orange said:
I know you report what gets views... but GOD DAMN, can we just drop the Mass Effect shit.

sorry for going off the handle but I am more than sick of hearing about this. I know I don't have to read it, but I do see it popping up every other thread made.
AnarchistAbe said:
This makes me want to scream. Entitled douchebags, all of you. No arguments, deep down you all know its true.
The Artificially Prolonged said:
Mass Effect 3 fiasco sticking around like a bad rash. I was hoping all fallout over this was over.
Where were all of you on my other post? I made one pointing out that these over-entitled fans should be labeled as "Massholes" and condemned, but the entire post ended up getting flooded with Massholes butthurt about my name calling and tried to tear me a new one.

Glad to see I'm not alone in thinking this is a dead issue.
your post got flooded because you are in the extreme minority. It should be easy to see that.
People in Retake Mass Effect: 60.000?
Mass effect 3 sales: over 3.500.000?
Irony?
It's called a cross section of the total population. When you take a survey, you can't accually poll EVERYONE, you take a sample group. You can argue the survey group may have a bias, but it's not 60,000, vrs 3.5 mill. it's 60k verses the total user base in the BSN which is smaller. And a majority in that poll of people. It is a true majority accross the whole 3.5 million? *shrug* My gut tells me more people are unhappy with the ending then happy, but who can really say? Neither of us. SO it's a moot point really.

And even so. 60k people at 60 dollars a pop is 3.5 million in buying power. Sure, it's not THAT much, but it's nothing to sneaze at either. That much money can put a real dent in your quartely earnings i'd bet.
60k out of 3.4 million (and growing) is about 1.8%, that's not much in the grand scheme of things. In fact I think Bioware has more to gain in the long run by losing those fans.
 

SciMal

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Undeadpool said:
Hence why I included the qualifier "Probably." Also the ending wasn't "broken," it was classic, high science fiction. If that's not to your taste, that's one thing, but in no way was it "broken."
Sorry to add another voice to the cacophony of opposition, but I disagree with one particular assertion: "...classic, high science fiction..."

No, it isn't, no matter how far back you go.

"The Time Machine" - H.G. Wells: The protagonist basically watches the world crumble as he searches in vain for a better future. As millions and billions of years pass, he sees life on Earth "ebb" and die. When he returns to the past and his laboratory, he leaves a few flowers as evidence of his travels and then disappears again. We don't know what happens to the protagonist, but throughout the novel we experienced his horror, shock, and awe at everything he experienced. It is thought provoking because it shines a spotlight on the entropy and mortality of what we subconsciously assume is eternal: Life and the world. The ending is satisfying because we know precisely what the protagonist has done - continued his search for answers, and we want him to succeed. The ambiguous ending is fine because the message of the author was delivered; "There are stranger things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophies" + "Savor every day." We don't need the protagonist to return, because doing so would tarnish the message.

"Ender's Game" - Orson Scott Card: The protagonist is racked with confusion and guilt as it turns out the games he was playing turned out to be an actual war. He may have just committed genocide, but there exists a single hope: He finds the egg of a queen so that he may, if he chooses, rebuild the species he helped extinguish. At the time the protagonist is a young boy, with all of the social skills and moral values befitting a young boy. He has defeated every enemy - real or imagined - in his wake, and we are given a better understanding of the enemy via Ender's point of view. The ending is bittersweet but hopeful, pointing to a period in time where peace between the two warring species might be possible. We're fine not addressing what happens after Ender finds the egg because we know it's in good, capable hands.

"Blade Runner" - Directed by Ridley Scott: The antagonist delivers the key philosophical dilemmas in his confrontation with the protagonist - a person who is automatically established to have questionable morals in the first few minutes. The ambiguous nature of the protagonist's morals reflects the opaque nature of the antagonist's right to exist, which very effectively delivers the audience a single question: Where do our creations cease to be under our control and live for themselves under their own terms? The ending is either bittersweet or happy, depending on which version you've seen/prefer. Here, the question is clearly posed to the audience, and no answer is given because it's meant to point out the inadequacy of our conceptions of the definition of life and what it means to be alive.

I could go on with "Dune," "2001: A Space Odyssey," "Starship Troopers," Aasimov's "Foundation" series, and more if I bothered to look through my bookshelf. From reading all of them, I can tell you one thing:

The ending to ME3 is only an imitation of classic sci-fi endings. It mimics some of them in core philosophical issues (particularly "Dune" and Aasimov's "Foundation" series), and some in abruptness ("2001"), but it doesn't understand how or why the classics did it in the first place. ME3's ending doesn't pose philosophical questions relating to the core themes of the previous games; it addresses an entirely new, out of nowhere moral dilemma that's not fleshed out. Then it shows the cinematic, which is fine on its own up until Joker crashlands - this is infuriating because if Mass Effect 3 understood classic sci-fi it would END when you make your choice and show the immediate affect cinematic (control/destroy/sythesize). That way the player could assume for themselves what happened to their companions and appreciate the heroic sacrifice they just made to save everybody. By showing the last 30 seconds and the Normandy on an unknown world it immediately discards your heroic sacrifice because what you did has affected NONE of the crew. They're not crying, they're not weeping, the world they're on isn't one saved from the Reapers, by explicitly showing you the "uplifting" ending, the writer(s) is implying that Shepard served their purpose - like an old dish rag - and the galaxy is ready to trundle on without Shepard. This is only punctuated with the grandfather narrator that does nothing but show you; "Shepard is SOOOOOO ancient history by now."

So, to recap the endings of some "Classic" Sci-Fi:
-Moral dilemmas and themes posed throughout stories inform and enrich the ending. Ambiguous endings are often present because the specific question or message at-hand doesn't have a modern answer or context; the authors are showing us something knew. Through time and internal reflection the viewers/readers construct the answer to the questions or themes posed, effectively participating in the story itself and continuing it.

Then ME3:

-Moral dilemmas and themes posed throughout the story are completely discarded in favor of a single, brand-new dilemma that is forced upon the player. Then after the player makes their choice, their participation and dozens of hours of investment are immediately pushed aside like yesterday's news to make way for the introduction of a prologue that implies multiple centuries pass where the character doesn't exist, marginalizing the player's achievements to barely more than a paragraph in a futuristic history book. You just don't do that. It wouldn't even be so bad, but Joker/Edi/Whomever don't even take a freaking moment of silence at the end to signify their affection or relationship with the person that just sacrificed themselves to save them all from a gruesome death.

No, ME3's ending is like a classic sci-fi ending that's been told secondhand to somebody who usually writes technical manuals.
 

Knight Templar

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Still Life said:
Knight Templar said:
It is both insulting and inaccurate because I was the one who Undeadpool was taling to.
And I was making a broader point not aimed at you specifically. End of story.
Then next time do not use me to make the point if I am not related to your point.
 

Still Life

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Knight Templar said:
Then next time do not use me to make the point if I am not related to your point.
Interesting: I didn't even quote you, so it's a big stretch to claim ad hominem.

You should take more time to consider things rather than allowing your knee to do the talking.
 

Seanfall

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The Great JT said:
Jesus, at this point, this isn't just a shit-storm, this is a shit-hurricane!
with shit-hail and shit-sleet...and oh my god..on the horizon is that...IT'S A SHIT-TYPHOON!!!
 

Knight Templar

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Still Life said:
Knight Templar said:
Then next time do not use me to make the point if I am not related to your point.
Interesting: I didn't even quote you, so it's a big stretch to claim ad hominem.

You should take more time to consider things rather than allowing your knee to do the talking.
You quoted somebody who was talking about and to me and what I said.

Do you not understand context?
 

Seanfall

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Kazedarkwind said:
i feel really bad for the writers at bioware right now, as an artist myself all i can imagine is them slumped down behind a desk hating their life cause people are practically wishing death upon them for there work. Which is one of the most heart breaking things ive seen out of this whole ending debate.

if i ever meet them im buying them a drink. They don't deserve this crap that the retakers are giving them.
Expect there's evidence that only Casey Hudson and lead Writer Mac Walters made the ending and cut the writing team out of it. Plus the Retakers sent them all 400 cupcakes. Their not bad people it's just that people focus on the more vocal and abusive of them cause it's easier to discredit them rather then look at the ones who are being rational and reasonable.
 

Seanfall

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Innegativeion said:
Kopikatsu said:
I just want to point out that the Shepard Lives scene is part of the ending (provided that you did the right things).

Indoctrination theory is still possible.
Interestingly their response to the indoctrination theory was very intentionally vague when asked at the PAX East panel. They even mentioned that the ending DLC's "content (should) speak for itself" in the very same response.

I have half a suspicion that they'll go along with it, claim it was their vision all along, and thousands of people will justifiably call bullshit on that claim.

So OP is right. Things are gonna keep on rumbling as they've been, and with the DLC we'll see either resurgence of rage and opposition, or finally a calm conclusion to all this, depending on how competently the DLC is done.
If they take credit for it, theirs no real way to disprove them...in fact a lot of IT would help show that it was. Personally if it gets rid of the endings we have I don't care if they take credit. But I would understand if other people (the fans that put IT together.) where.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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nikki191 said:
the mass effect controversy is a good thing. it doesnt matter what side of the fence you sit on this debate its the fact this is a debate thats lasted for weeks has consumed the net. there has NEVER been anything like this for games before and its the first time a video game IP has reached the level of star wars fandom.

like it or not mass effect has taken the step from fanboys/fangirls to something much larger. games have finally made it
really?

there hasnt been a game/franchise to earn this level of fandom?..I find that odd..then again *looks arund room... ME3 action figures, merchadice, wallposters* you may have a point
 

UnusualStranger

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Know what is annoying? "OMG WHY WON'T THIS GO AWAY!!>!?!>!> STUPID FANOIS MAKING NOISE!"

Guess what? When something starts, and there are enough people to latch on to it to get results IT WON'T JUST "GO AWAY". Goddamned people. I seriously mean that. I mean, obviously this is a big deal if we have to start wondering "Huh, do they have a LEGAL case here?". If we can get to that point where this might be going to trail and official complaints and all that, then THIS is not going to go away, because this stuff takes TIME.

I know, hard to believe, I know. TIME. It takes goddamned TIME for things to get done, for cases to get looked through, for paperwork to be filed, for teams to work, for PR departments to scramble, for legal teams to scramble.....ALL TAKES TIME. And not just "Oh, 2 weeks is a LONG TIME". This could be a MONTHS LONG PROCESS. Don't like that it takes that long? Maybe look at the systems in place and get those to be more efficient, and then it will go faster!

Or just sit there, wondering why people are bringing up something that is at the moment being worked through in legal departments and all other sorts of processes. Complain that "OMG! WHY IS THIS STILL HERE?", and be ignorant of things taking time because the system to deal with this is slow. Personally, I hope that this brings a hell of a lot more attention to systems, and games, and all sorts of stuff. Bioware (Or more specifically some particular writers/designers) really screwed up, and NEED to be held accountable for this idiocy. If an ending can be FOUGHT over to the point where a hell of a lot of people end up on a legal side or another, then the ending is a FAILURE. When you need CLARIFICATION for your ending, that means it is a failure of an ending. Sorry, but that is just how I see it played out.
 

TheCaptain

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AnarchistAbe said:
Congratulations! You got what you wanted, though. That's all that really matters, right? This company, that you loved so much and created a series we all love, getting hit for false advertising because you all didn't like what happened. Congratulations!
Also, because the falsely advertised their product.
 

Still Life

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Knight Templar said:
Do you not understand context?
Yes. I do. And you're reaching.

Because if I wanted to ridicule anything you were saying I would have included your post. However, my post was for someone who I felt made a broader point i.e. another context.

This in effect, creates another stream of dialogue and is something which occurs all the time on internet forums and in verbal conversation.
 

Seanfall

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Incomer said:
This is getting way out of hand. You don't sue people for making a bad movie sequels why should ME3 be any different. And if you do sue people for a bad film then F you dude, you are the reason why we can't have any nice things.

And honestly I'm wondering how will they talk me into thinking that ending which we were given has any meaning. On the other hand I'd be probably happy with some vlogs about their thought process while they were making it (coke orgy would be crush my dreams so hard :D).

Was it bad? Yeah it was pretty god damn terrible but it didn't cause major outbreak of cancer or something, stop freaking out >_<
Ooooooh believe me if I could sue Micheal Bay for making transformers I would.