Ummm...It's the first time there has been a Star Wars game...lithium.jelly said:
That's a Made by Bioware...
That's an MMO...
Umm...
BioWare Insists The Old Republic Is Innovative
- Thread starter Marshall Honorof
- Start date
That's a Made by Bioware...
That's an MMO...
Umm...
Look Mister "James Ohlen", i don't give a dam to who you are, what you do, or what you think you're doing, but just leave my beloved Half Life away from your shenannigans.Marshall Honorof said:
You gave us a huge text and not even gave a reason to what your game does that's different...
And really? Comparing Half life a action/puzzle/platforming FPS and Gears of War a Action/tactical over the shoulder game, with Battlefield and Call of Duty? Really? Makes me think your in the business for sh!zzles and giggles, cuz apparently you do not know the difference between quality and generic quantity...
You guys are being a bit too harsh here. In fact, I would say Bioware doesn't get credit for the areas where it did innovate, instead they are just taken for granted.
Yes, we all know they brought their brand of storytelling to the MMO genre, but as a side-effect of they made it so you can define the your character's actual personality and morality in a tangible way beyond just role-playing.
They also brought their companion system from other games, and not just mimicking their existing style from say, dragon age. Instead they tied it into the crafting system and made it much more dynamic. Instead of spending long boring stretches of time in some crafting hall, you do your crafting on the run sending orders to your companions, who's effectiveness are tied to how much they approve of you, which again feeds back into the story. In other MMOs, pets are just another skill that you learn at a trainer, in SWTOR they are people you meet who join you on your journey.
The combat mechanics as they said are where they chose not to rock the boat too much. If they had come up with something radically different, they would've been lambasted from MMO fans who wanted the tradition controls and skills system they were accustomed to and the game would've been considered niche like Fallen Earth. They have however added their own twists like the cover system, which works well once you get the hang of it. Also, TF2 style healing. Even the PVP warzones have new twists on old formulas, like being able to throw the flag in huttball. Or the technical innovations like transitioning into player-specific instances WITHOUT load screens.
There are tons of smaller examples throughout the game, which you may choose not to see or even may dislike, but they are there nonetheless.
Those of you who actually played FPS games before Half-Life will immediately know what he is talking about. Mechanically, HL (which I loved) didn't bring anything new, we had shooting, we had levers, we had in-game cinematics, we had vent crawling, we had all of that. What they did was 1up the presentation and storytelling element to draw you in more, not unlike what Bioware has done.
Yes, we all know they brought their brand of storytelling to the MMO genre, but as a side-effect of they made it so you can define the your character's actual personality and morality in a tangible way beyond just role-playing.
They also brought their companion system from other games, and not just mimicking their existing style from say, dragon age. Instead they tied it into the crafting system and made it much more dynamic. Instead of spending long boring stretches of time in some crafting hall, you do your crafting on the run sending orders to your companions, who's effectiveness are tied to how much they approve of you, which again feeds back into the story. In other MMOs, pets are just another skill that you learn at a trainer, in SWTOR they are people you meet who join you on your journey.
The combat mechanics as they said are where they chose not to rock the boat too much. If they had come up with something radically different, they would've been lambasted from MMO fans who wanted the tradition controls and skills system they were accustomed to and the game would've been considered niche like Fallen Earth. They have however added their own twists like the cover system, which works well once you get the hang of it. Also, TF2 style healing. Even the PVP warzones have new twists on old formulas, like being able to throw the flag in huttball. Or the technical innovations like transitioning into player-specific instances WITHOUT load screens.
There are tons of smaller examples throughout the game, which you may choose not to see or even may dislike, but they are there nonetheless.
Those of you who actually played FPS games before Half-Life will immediately know what he is talking about. Mechanically, HL (which I loved) didn't bring anything new, we had shooting, we had levers, we had in-game cinematics, we had vent crawling, we had all of that. What they did was 1up the presentation and storytelling element to draw you in more, not unlike what Bioware has done.
I like Bioware but I see no reason why I should play TOR.
No matter how much he denies it, it plays the same and feels as other MMO's. There's really no reason to start playing, except maybe if you're a big Bioware or Star Wars fan. Nothing stands out about that game, let alone that the monthly subscription fee is becoming less and less the norm.
Now a game like Guild Wars 2, that's how you can change MMO's. There is a reason to go play that instead of any other MMO out there.
No matter how much he denies it, it plays the same and feels as other MMO's. There's really no reason to start playing, except maybe if you're a big Bioware or Star Wars fan. Nothing stands out about that game, let alone that the monthly subscription fee is becoming less and less the norm.
Now a game like Guild Wars 2, that's how you can change MMO's. There is a reason to go play that instead of any other MMO out there.
Except from what I can see, the combat system is essentially the same as the EQ/WoW formula. Hit 1,2,3,4,5,1 while waiting for cooldowns. I would also posit that it's also about getting the "phat loots" in the form of gear so you can go get more gear.Beryl77 said:
Game doesn't venture into any virgin territory, and in fact is probably on the side of the MMORPG debate that is holding the genre as a whole back with gameplay mechanics and design that largely wants to say that there is no higher evolution in the genre than what Everquest and later WoW hammered out about a decade ago.
It's absolutely ludicrous to say that something Bioware has been doing for 5 games is suddenly revolutionary because they crammed it under the hood of an MMO. 1, I genuinely wonder just how consequential the dialogue system can become, and 2, from what I've seen its nothing very uh... good? The writing is mediocre.
Mind you, none of this would be a problem except that Bioware went out of their way to proclaim that TOR is a departure from what you've seen in MMOs and basically said they wanted to move you toward a properly epic feeling when instead most of what we're getting is essentially WoW in space, and I do mean that very literally. It's a sad day when someone can spend 10 minutes in photoshop drawing direct comparisons between a TOR class, and WoW's Warrior class.
I'll give GW2 the benefit of the doubt that it'll actually be different and actually understand why the World of Warcraft method of such an over-saturation of quests that the game becomes a steady stream of theme parks is a bad thing, and recognizes that while you're not exactly going to do away with class roles (IE: the holy trinity in WoW) you can at least manipulate the dynamics between them a bit better. The problem with the class roles in WoW is that it pulled you out of the game; DPS oriented characters may as well have been playing a single player game, healers don't get noticed till something goes wrong, and tanks are both a thankless job, and the most work.
It's absolutely ludicrous to say that something Bioware has been doing for 5 games is suddenly revolutionary because they crammed it under the hood of an MMO. 1, I genuinely wonder just how consequential the dialogue system can become, and 2, from what I've seen its nothing very uh... good? The writing is mediocre.
Mind you, none of this would be a problem except that Bioware went out of their way to proclaim that TOR is a departure from what you've seen in MMOs and basically said they wanted to move you toward a properly epic feeling when instead most of what we're getting is essentially WoW in space, and I do mean that very literally. It's a sad day when someone can spend 10 minutes in photoshop drawing direct comparisons between a TOR class, and WoW's Warrior class.
I'll give GW2 the benefit of the doubt that it'll actually be different and actually understand why the World of Warcraft method of such an over-saturation of quests that the game becomes a steady stream of theme parks is a bad thing, and recognizes that while you're not exactly going to do away with class roles (IE: the holy trinity in WoW) you can at least manipulate the dynamics between them a bit better. The problem with the class roles in WoW is that it pulled you out of the game; DPS oriented characters may as well have been playing a single player game, healers don't get noticed till something goes wrong, and tanks are both a thankless job, and the most work.
Valve was the first (that I know of) to integrate setpieces seamlessly into FPS gameplay without cutscenes. That's pretty innovative, for the time at least. Setpieces before that were either simple (a tank blows up) or in a cutscene.ravenshrike said:
HL2 is a bit more innovative due to the physics that were put in but as you said as a genre as a whole it hasnt done much.animehermit said:
OT: TOR is innovative for alot of things
1. it made pvp fun again. you can go in anytime and with anygear and still help win the battle ground unlike say wow were if you dont go full pvp youll be ground into dust.
2. story telling. im more invested in doing quests when there a reason to do it. which leads me to.....
3. no true grind. look i know theres going to be at least one person whos going to say im wrong but you never have to grind anything and in the long run the kill so many quests are just bonuses were you kill people you would have to anyways.
4. companions. If my pet in wow could replace a healer or a tank if we needed it to id still be playing.
5. the voice acting. if youve ever watched a cartoon you will have deja vu the whole game and its greeat to remember your childhood.
6. good and evil. Now this is in my opinion the best part of the game. So youve been tracking down this guy you have to kill hes been throwing pain in the ass minions at you for five quests but the person your working for wants him alive, you can still KILL him or punch him or maim him or anything else you want. hell you can freeze his ass and be good or let them go if you wish thats what makes me love this game.
Throwing myself in on this, I would say that yes, there is innovation there. It actually is a game changer for MMOs as it sets a lofty precedent of expectation for the narrative capability of an MMO that was up till now previously practically non existent.
However, every little bit of awe that is earned by bioware for putting this level of complexity and depth into an MMO format.... is absolutely undone by the flagarant carbon copying of Wow.
Im not saying it is wrong for an MMO to be inspired by the world WoW created. Im not saying ToR should completely ignore gameplay conventions WoW helped to refine. WoW Is a Juggernaut (pun), So if your going to emulate something, Emulate one of the best.
What I AM saying is that there is absolutely no excuse for a game that the developers knew before they even started working on that would draw comparisons to WoW. Purposely chosing to not only NOT try to distance themselves from WoW but to go out of their way and completely verbatim copy certain elements of WoW that is unacceptable.
Literally I could go on for hours with theses failed opportunities bioware missed to be able to use and refine what WoW built on and differentiate their game so that people would not be as compelled to draw immediate comparisons to WoW. Its not a bad thing to emulate or be inspired by WoW. At its core, WoW is a well made game and it was a good idea to take inspiration from it, and honestly ToRs gameplay is solid enough because of it. However the problem boils down to the difference between inspiration and plagiarism. Bioware saw that wide line and basically kept pissing on it till the line had been eroded away.
But getting back on track and wrapping this up. The story portion of the game is phenomenal for an MMO. Hell, I will say that the story portion of ToR is better than what Bioware gave us with Dragon Age 2. Its collective of very lovely (albeit simple) stories in the star wars universe. If this was a stand alone offline bioware RPG, People would have lauded it for being another hit for them. Now add that back into being in the more restrictive and difficult to work with field of MMOs and yes what Bioware did was impressive, as well as game changing. But by trying to get the product out and having to rely on WoWs game mechanic it permanently attaches an asterisk to this "win" for bioware
TL;DR
Every bit of accolades Bioware deserves for changing what we expect out of MMOs with its narrative elements is invariably going to be tainted by carbon copying and phoning in WoWs gameplay mechanics.
However, every little bit of awe that is earned by bioware for putting this level of complexity and depth into an MMO format.... is absolutely undone by the flagarant carbon copying of Wow.
Im not saying it is wrong for an MMO to be inspired by the world WoW created. Im not saying ToR should completely ignore gameplay conventions WoW helped to refine. WoW Is a Juggernaut (pun), So if your going to emulate something, Emulate one of the best.
What I AM saying is that there is absolutely no excuse for a game that the developers knew before they even started working on that would draw comparisons to WoW. Purposely chosing to not only NOT try to distance themselves from WoW but to go out of their way and completely verbatim copy certain elements of WoW that is unacceptable.
Loot:
Acceptable
Having "tiered" loot dropping from mobs ranging from Junk to rare.
Unacceptable:
Having your tiers color coded, using the exact same color scales of Purple>blue>green>white>gray
Acceptable:
Putting in a safeguard that protects you from accidentally deleting one of your toons in char select
Unacceptable:
having the exact same pop up box to act as that safe guard and using the exact same saftey word to DELETE
Acceptable
Using interconnected fast travel system to get to areas of importance
Unacceptable:
Making them into a pre programmed "taxi" system that locks you into a mount system where you cannot move, range of motion is limited to act as a "scenic route" look around as you travel that you have to pay a nominal fare to ride.
Acceptable:
Having two predominant factions that are at odds with each other
Unacceptable
Starting your evil faction off in either the Orc like brown rocky desert plains, or the Undercity like hazy/foggy wooded areas
Acceptable:
Using a secondary poly skin texture to "wrap around" your base toon so that a variety of armor styles can be created.
Unacceptable:
Making it so that virtually every race/class combo will invariably look the same in sets, all of which will no matter how illogical it may be to feature oversized shoulderpads (even on robed wearers)
Acceptable:
Having a feature that lets you preview what a piece of equipment will look like on your toon
Unacceptable:
Using the same command to initiate that dressing room feature, then limiting it to a similar size, and view capacity.
Acceptable:
Having menu systems that open up pop up boxes to let the player know what they have looted, what gear they have on, how much money they have, etc.
Unacceptable
Configuring your menu boxes in the same way where I = Inventory, C= Char, B = Bags, etc.
Acceptable
Having social mobs that can link together when one of their allies is in trouble.
Unacceptable
Creating cluster mobs that are completely inseparable from each other.
Acceptable
Giving mobs an aggressive radius.
Unacceptable:
Making that aggro radius small enough that outdoors it can easily be avoided and uniform enough that you can "sense" how large that radius will be with no worries of variation.
Acceptable: (debabtably)
Having equipment deterioration
Unacceptable:
Having to pay exponentially increasing fees for equipment repair and having death being a overweighted cause for equipment damage as a death penalty.
Acceptable
Having "tiered" loot dropping from mobs ranging from Junk to rare.
Unacceptable:
Having your tiers color coded, using the exact same color scales of Purple>blue>green>white>gray
Acceptable:
Putting in a safeguard that protects you from accidentally deleting one of your toons in char select
Unacceptable:
having the exact same pop up box to act as that safe guard and using the exact same saftey word to DELETE
Acceptable
Using interconnected fast travel system to get to areas of importance
Unacceptable:
Making them into a pre programmed "taxi" system that locks you into a mount system where you cannot move, range of motion is limited to act as a "scenic route" look around as you travel that you have to pay a nominal fare to ride.
Acceptable:
Having two predominant factions that are at odds with each other
Unacceptable
Starting your evil faction off in either the Orc like brown rocky desert plains, or the Undercity like hazy/foggy wooded areas
Acceptable:
Using a secondary poly skin texture to "wrap around" your base toon so that a variety of armor styles can be created.
Unacceptable:
Making it so that virtually every race/class combo will invariably look the same in sets, all of which will no matter how illogical it may be to feature oversized shoulderpads (even on robed wearers)
Acceptable:
Having a feature that lets you preview what a piece of equipment will look like on your toon
Unacceptable:
Using the same command to initiate that dressing room feature, then limiting it to a similar size, and view capacity.
Acceptable:
Having menu systems that open up pop up boxes to let the player know what they have looted, what gear they have on, how much money they have, etc.
Unacceptable
Configuring your menu boxes in the same way where I = Inventory, C= Char, B = Bags, etc.
Acceptable
Having social mobs that can link together when one of their allies is in trouble.
Unacceptable
Creating cluster mobs that are completely inseparable from each other.
Acceptable
Giving mobs an aggressive radius.
Unacceptable:
Making that aggro radius small enough that outdoors it can easily be avoided and uniform enough that you can "sense" how large that radius will be with no worries of variation.
Acceptable: (debabtably)
Having equipment deterioration
Unacceptable:
Having to pay exponentially increasing fees for equipment repair and having death being a overweighted cause for equipment damage as a death penalty.
Literally I could go on for hours with theses failed opportunities bioware missed to be able to use and refine what WoW built on and differentiate their game so that people would not be as compelled to draw immediate comparisons to WoW. Its not a bad thing to emulate or be inspired by WoW. At its core, WoW is a well made game and it was a good idea to take inspiration from it, and honestly ToRs gameplay is solid enough because of it. However the problem boils down to the difference between inspiration and plagiarism. Bioware saw that wide line and basically kept pissing on it till the line had been eroded away.
But getting back on track and wrapping this up. The story portion of the game is phenomenal for an MMO. Hell, I will say that the story portion of ToR is better than what Bioware gave us with Dragon Age 2. Its collective of very lovely (albeit simple) stories in the star wars universe. If this was a stand alone offline bioware RPG, People would have lauded it for being another hit for them. Now add that back into being in the more restrictive and difficult to work with field of MMOs and yes what Bioware did was impressive, as well as game changing. But by trying to get the product out and having to rely on WoWs game mechanic it permanently attaches an asterisk to this "win" for bioware
TL;DR
Every bit of accolades Bioware deserves for changing what we expect out of MMOs with its narrative elements is invariably going to be tainted by carbon copying and phoning in WoWs gameplay mechanics.
i'd take normal dialoge options over Bioware style moral choices any day. Adding their own kind of Dialog-system to a generic mmo doesnt make it innovative.
He doesn't even get his facts right when he tries to argue a point with FPS's, which definitely changed. One can argue if they changed for the better, but if you compare old FPS like DOOM with new FPS like the COD:MW series there are clear differences.
He doesn't even get his facts right when he tries to argue a point with FPS's, which definitely changed. One can argue if they changed for the better, but if you compare old FPS like DOOM with new FPS like the COD:MW series there are clear differences.
It doesn't just fail to innovate, it's a backwards regression to 2008 or so because of the outdated engine they are using. The engine holds back not just graphics and performance, but also the feel of the gameplay and the scope of the content.
Bioware and EA just didn't have enough experienced technical people, and they made a wrong call with building their record-breakingly expensive MMO on a 2006 middleware engine.
Bioware and EA just didn't have enough experienced technical people, and they made a wrong call with building their record-breakingly expensive MMO on a 2006 middleware engine.
This whole 'story-based' MMO is ultimately misguided. You're basically doing your typical Bioware SP missions, alongside other people. It's co-op gameplay. MMOs should strive to have PvP like Eve Online or Ultima Online. Even Star Wars Galaxies offered a lot more, like player housing, a player economy, player set goals, a leveling system that encouraged experimentation and offered ways to change classes if dissatisfied, and social interaction through gameplay. If you didn't want to be a hero, you could play an Entertainer, a Cook, or an Image Designer or Fashion Designer. TOR, in comparison, is a regression.
I'm sure TOR does look innovative when compared to what are, arguably, the least innovative genres out there. Everything is relative...
Truth is though, TOR is an evolution, not a revolution. That's still worthy, and that really ought to be enough for Bioware.
Truth is though, TOR is an evolution, not a revolution. That's still worthy, and that really ought to be enough for Bioware.
Since I'm getting migranes from the amount of stupidity I have to read here again, let's clarify one thing first.
The Word 'innovation' does not mean what you think it means.
Yes, TOR is an innovation for Bioware, because they as a company have never done an MMO before.
Yes, TOR has innovative elements, as there hasn't been a successfull story driven Mass Effect/ WOW hybrid to my knowledge.
If Blizzard would call their new Pandaren innovative, it would still be true (if that expansion sold well) because they never had cuddly martial arts bear in chinese dresses before.
It would be a personal innovation.
The word innovation has lost all meaning as it is used, abused and got butchered for PR means over the last decade.
At it's core definition in a business sence it is the successfull application of Knowledge for commercial gains.
Knowledge => Money = Innovation
Money => Knowledge = Science
The Word 'innovation' does not mean what you think it means.
Yes, TOR is an innovation for Bioware, because they as a company have never done an MMO before.
Yes, TOR has innovative elements, as there hasn't been a successfull story driven Mass Effect/ WOW hybrid to my knowledge.
If Blizzard would call their new Pandaren innovative, it would still be true (if that expansion sold well) because they never had cuddly martial arts bear in chinese dresses before.
It would be a personal innovation.
The word innovation has lost all meaning as it is used, abused and got butchered for PR means over the last decade.
At it's core definition in a business sence it is the successfull application of Knowledge for commercial gains.
Knowledge => Money = Innovation
Money => Knowledge = Science
Innovation doesn't mean revolution or that you can't build upon what anyone else did. It's having new ideas, new methods, and other new advances, but always building on what came before.
Innovation is not invention.
Most people seem to just be mad that the game didn't innovate in the places where they wanted, but that doesn't mean it didn't innovate at all.
That bioware innovated in key areas that were neglected by previous MMORPGs (emphasis on cinematic storytelling, moral dilemmas, defining your character's personality, streamlining crafting, etc) is quite clear to anyone who plays the game. These are all exactly the kinds of innovations you would expect in the natural evolution of an MMORPG, and it makes sense that Bioware would choose those areas to innovate since it's their specialty.
If you were looking for something completely different, perhaps it wasn't an MMORPG you wanted in the first place, or perhaps you should wait for an MMORPG that innovates in different areas, but there's no point in claiming that this step in the evolutionary process didn't happen.
You'll see it for yourself when future MMOs start incorporating aspects of SWTOR into their own MMOs, borrowing on Bioware's innovations just as they borrowed from games like Everquest.
Innovation is not invention.
Most people seem to just be mad that the game didn't innovate in the places where they wanted, but that doesn't mean it didn't innovate at all.
That bioware innovated in key areas that were neglected by previous MMORPGs (emphasis on cinematic storytelling, moral dilemmas, defining your character's personality, streamlining crafting, etc) is quite clear to anyone who plays the game. These are all exactly the kinds of innovations you would expect in the natural evolution of an MMORPG, and it makes sense that Bioware would choose those areas to innovate since it's their specialty.
If you were looking for something completely different, perhaps it wasn't an MMORPG you wanted in the first place, or perhaps you should wait for an MMORPG that innovates in different areas, but there's no point in claiming that this step in the evolutionary process didn't happen.
You'll see it for yourself when future MMOs start incorporating aspects of SWTOR into their own MMOs, borrowing on Bioware's innovations just as they borrowed from games like Everquest.