I'm sorry but that's just bullshit. The Old Republic didn't innovate the MMO genre at all. It's essentially a WoW clone with a gimmick, just like every other MMO released in the past 5 years.
BioWare Insists The Old Republic Is Innovative
- Thread starter Marshall Honorof
- Start date
It seems the argument is over whether there was enough "new" to qualify as innovative as a whole. In that regard I think Ohlen's (and presumably Bioware's) assessment is fair, TOR is certainly an evolution of the MMO genre, and a respectable one at that, but no more. Was it ever intended to be anything else? Apparently (and sadly) not.Jahandar said:
Getting on to dictionary definitions (minor quibble)... tedious as that is. To innovate is to apply new ideas etc. but it doesn't have to build on what goes before.
I'm not saying it's completely new but it changes many things which I don't like much anymore about current MMO's, there is reason enough to switch to it.Centrophy said:
For example, the boss fights don't happen in instances, they happen in the normal world. When someone summoned a dragon nearby you can participate, it doesn't matter whether you have the quest or not, you can simply participate in defeating it. Regardless whether you have the quest or whether you're in the group/guild/faction with the other people, you'll get rewarded with loot, exp etc.
Another thing which always bothered me about MMO's which is different in Guild Wars 2 is that, every class can be a DPS/tank/healer. No more waiting for that one person to come, only to fight a boss.
This is how I view difference in MMO's. Using some things from old MMO's but also changing them enough, to to warrant switching to that game.
The only thing that TOR has is that it plays in the Star Wars universe.
I really don't like BioWare. They're the only game company besides maybe Activision that I dislike, too. They just come off as really unprofessional and they lash out at their customers pretty ruthlessly. You can tell that they don't care about their customers at all, and that they just see people as money trees.
The isn't entirely right, nor entirely wrong. TOR isn't a re-invention or a revolution of the genre, but as is quite rightly described as an innovative and evolutionary entry to the MMO market.
How it has innovated:
Fully voice-acted, cinematic dialogue gives characters personality and even the "fetch 5 of X" and "kill 10 of Y" quests have meaning and weight to them (even if they are no more exciting to actually perform).
A class storyline just for the player, that delivers a single-player experience to an MMO.
Companion characters with personality.
Phased (ie. instanced) story areas streamlined and integrated perfectly with the world at large.
The player can make role-playing choices in dialogue that award light/dark side points and can be brought up later in the story. An MMO player-character with personality!
How it has evolved what has come before:
Area looting. Looting is considerably less of a pain
Companion's do your crafting/gathering for you (mostly) and sell your junk too.
Moddable armour/weapons that can level with the player from low level thru to max level.
The group experience has been tailored to perfection. Reasons why it's better than other MMOs (which may or may not have any one of the following, but not all):
- Phases scale to the number of players (Flashpoints do not) keeping them challenging and soloable if desired.
- The social points system (not amazing atm, but likely to change)
- How convo rolls/player choices are handled in group dialogues
- MORE XP and better rewards for teaming with other players, NOT LESS.
- Optional Heroic (multiplayer) quests, but companions for solo players.
- Flashpoints are streamlined for four players (making groups easier to put together)
- Everyone can do reasonable DPS, even healers and tanks
Player housing, in the form of a personal spaceship which doubles as a mission hub, rest area and transport.
Space mission minigame > Fishing
What the game does well, if no differently than other MMOs:
The PvP is fun, the queue-from-anywhere system is very welcome and the rewards for winning and losing are just right (ie. not punishing for the losers).
The pacing and spacing of side-quests running along-side main quests
The various ways to lvl (PvP, PvE, Flashpoints, Space missions, etc) after lvl 10.
The atmosphere and story of each different planet
Unique and worthwhile abilities granted by crafting professions are well thought out and add to players' arsenal of abilities.
What the game doesn't do well:
Mounts - While it's great that they can be cast in 0.5s rather than WoW's 2-3s they're pathetically slow, even the top ones.
I hate how since WoW every single item now must be soulbound. Eve Online is probably the only game that has (almost) entirely avoided this nonsense. Still, I will admit it works in the context of the game and its economy. But practically everything in this game is soul bound.
Morons in chat...not BioWare's fault, it's par for the course with MMOs I suppose.
The targetting system is not quite right.
Performance needs to (and I believe will) be improved.
The age old issue of waiting for particular enemies to respawn in open-world missions. Getting zero credit for a kill if another non-grouped player tagged it. This is a dinosaur of MMO games and I don't understand why with the level of polish BW paid the rest of the game, they let boring, needless and frustrating stuff like this still exist.
Things I'm ambivalent about:
It looks above average at best. Not ugly, not dated, but not shiny and next-gen. I realise it's to allow for lower entry-requirements. I still don't like it.
The talent system. Boring, not particularly well structured or thought out. Needs looking at.
How it has innovated:
Fully voice-acted, cinematic dialogue gives characters personality and even the "fetch 5 of X" and "kill 10 of Y" quests have meaning and weight to them (even if they are no more exciting to actually perform).
A class storyline just for the player, that delivers a single-player experience to an MMO.
Companion characters with personality.
Phased (ie. instanced) story areas streamlined and integrated perfectly with the world at large.
The player can make role-playing choices in dialogue that award light/dark side points and can be brought up later in the story. An MMO player-character with personality!
How it has evolved what has come before:
Area looting. Looting is considerably less of a pain
Companion's do your crafting/gathering for you (mostly) and sell your junk too.
Moddable armour/weapons that can level with the player from low level thru to max level.
The group experience has been tailored to perfection. Reasons why it's better than other MMOs (which may or may not have any one of the following, but not all):
- Phases scale to the number of players (Flashpoints do not) keeping them challenging and soloable if desired.
- The social points system (not amazing atm, but likely to change)
- How convo rolls/player choices are handled in group dialogues
- MORE XP and better rewards for teaming with other players, NOT LESS.
- Optional Heroic (multiplayer) quests, but companions for solo players.
- Flashpoints are streamlined for four players (making groups easier to put together)
- Everyone can do reasonable DPS, even healers and tanks
Player housing, in the form of a personal spaceship which doubles as a mission hub, rest area and transport.
Space mission minigame > Fishing
What the game does well, if no differently than other MMOs:
The PvP is fun, the queue-from-anywhere system is very welcome and the rewards for winning and losing are just right (ie. not punishing for the losers).
The pacing and spacing of side-quests running along-side main quests
The various ways to lvl (PvP, PvE, Flashpoints, Space missions, etc) after lvl 10.
The atmosphere and story of each different planet
Unique and worthwhile abilities granted by crafting professions are well thought out and add to players' arsenal of abilities.
What the game doesn't do well:
Mounts - While it's great that they can be cast in 0.5s rather than WoW's 2-3s they're pathetically slow, even the top ones.
I hate how since WoW every single item now must be soulbound. Eve Online is probably the only game that has (almost) entirely avoided this nonsense. Still, I will admit it works in the context of the game and its economy. But practically everything in this game is soul bound.
Morons in chat...not BioWare's fault, it's par for the course with MMOs I suppose.
The targetting system is not quite right.
Performance needs to (and I believe will) be improved.
The age old issue of waiting for particular enemies to respawn in open-world missions. Getting zero credit for a kill if another non-grouped player tagged it. This is a dinosaur of MMO games and I don't understand why with the level of polish BW paid the rest of the game, they let boring, needless and frustrating stuff like this still exist.
Things I'm ambivalent about:
It looks above average at best. Not ugly, not dated, but not shiny and next-gen. I realise it's to allow for lower entry-requirements. I still don't like it.
The talent system. Boring, not particularly well structured or thought out. Needs looking at.
So many of these comments point out that the game is 'on par with WoW'.... that's pretty damn good for their first MMO, why would you criticize it for that
That's nice, if "innovation" is completely meaningless. If you want to call those tweaks "innovation," just about every God of War clone is "innovative." Every brown shooter is "innovative."Savber said:
This is how I see much of the criticism in this thread being constructed:
"I hate Bioware!"
"Bro! No way! You too!"
"Totes bro!"
"We should make out bro!"
Is it possible to frame your criticism of Bioware and TOR without also implying Bioware fed you your dog for dinner? Probably...
As someone who doesn't play MMO I can only offer an outsider's view. To me it appears Bioware did try to "innovate" with the TOR insomuch as they tried to offer deeper story in a style of game which usually only allowed for very shallow story experiences.
"I hate Bioware!"
"Bro! No way! You too!"
"Totes bro!"
"We should make out bro!"
Is it possible to frame your criticism of Bioware and TOR without also implying Bioware fed you your dog for dinner? Probably...
As someone who doesn't play MMO I can only offer an outsider's view. To me it appears Bioware did try to "innovate" with the TOR insomuch as they tried to offer deeper story in a style of game which usually only allowed for very shallow story experiences.
Well I would hope that's not what I've done, particularly the final comment! I played TOR in beta, and I've got to say I really think the fully voiced aspect of TOR is good but a little over praised. TOR felt very like the Tortage part of Age of Conan to me; they've just extended voice acting outside of the starting area. Yes, I think it's commendable but even Bioware employees are saying they weren't setting out to break the mold and they didn't. Nevertheless, they did do a solid job.aftohsix said:
While I think about it, while it's the aim of the game to keep bringing people back I really wish Devs didn't use the word 'addictive' as if it were positive. The Skinner box aspect of MMOs is something we should be hammering a stake into, not championing. Gaming should bring people back because it's fun not compulsive. (Indeed, surely this is the best selling point TOR has, you're coming back for story not dailies or rare loot collection etc.)
Excuse me, i'm sure there are some that are real, but i can name dozens if not hundred of MMO's that already cover the majority of that list and came before this last Star Wars MMO...animehermit said:
Just sayin' you are exagerating a little...
Innovation: An act of try a new method, idea, or product as defined by the dictionary.Zachary Amaranth said:
Name another MMORPG where it has fully-voiced characters, speaking companion characters that are not just a sideshow, unique class stories, and moral choices and consequences that holds more weight than any MMORPG.
Call these innovations bad or whatever but these are STILL innovations nonetheless.
Edit: What's with this bullcrap about changes in regards to storytelling in MMORPG are NOT innovations? WTHeck? Are you serious?