Blaming the victim

[Agayek]

QFT. I just do not understand the mentality behind this type of stuff. To me, it makes no sense. The victim is never to blame for the crimes committed against them. Ever.

The victim is never to blame.

Unless they do something mindnumbingly stupid.

You don't walk through the ghetto of Detroit in a nice suit and gold Rolex, for perfectly valid reasons. If you got mugged in such a situation, it's at least partially your fault for being stupid. The same is also true in some rape cases (the ones I'm referring to are not the overly violent cases, but more along the lines of date rape, etc). Granted, any situation where someone runs up, throws their victim to the ground and ravishes them is 100% completely and totally the fault of the attacker, regardless of what anyone else says.

If a woman lets a man get her drunk to the point of passing out, goes home with a stranger, or any of a number similarly stupid moves, then she's at least partially to blame for whatever will happen.

I'm not saying that the attacker is in any way justified (personally, I'd like to kill them myself), just that there are some instances where the victim is at least partially at fault. These are almost always the situations wherein the victim could have done something to prevent it. For example, refusing any more drinks or being with friends to prevent a complete clusterfuck.

 

[holy_secret]

I sure won't like it if someone ever does that in front of me.

 

[Agayek]

Better yet ... why don't we mandate that all people can only wear clothes from an approved booklet? The world would be so much better if all girls dressed like nuns without a single hint of their physical presence ... Christ.

Looking over the forum posts am I the only one who realises the irony that rather than actively fighting the problem bt coming down hard on the perpetrator freedom of expression must 'take one for the team'?

A police officer's duty is to uphold the law, be a shield for the people, to act in their best conscience and protect them at the cost of self. Not to act like the fucking morality gestapo of the Middle East

Know what would be a lovely place to live? Somewhere we can do whatever we please, without consequence or thought.

Unfortunately, we live in the real world. As such, there are certain things we need to accept. One of these is that some people cannot be trusted. Only an idiot willingly makes themselves a target for such people.

That cop may as well have been saying "Don't flash rolls of $100 bills at people in the ghetto". It's the exact same concept. His wording probably could have been better, but the idea is to employ some common sense, because like it or not we have to live with the fact that the world isn't perfect.

If you can exercise some level of logic, you'll be fine, no matter how you dress or act, but if you make yourself a tempting target in a vulnerable position, a large portion of the human race will take advantage of that.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

 

[Flare Phoenix]

You take your chances sometimes. If someone is speeding and they end up crashing into a tree, you blame them for speeding. Sure, you may feel bad that it happened but the fact of the matter is they still had a cause in what happened. To me it is a similar thing here: if a girl dresses like a slut, she isn't helping matters. Now before anyone goes off at me, I'm not saying if you dress like a slut you deserve to be raped.

The thing that really needs to stop is fake accusations of rape. Unfortunately, the majority of rape claims turn out to be false, which makes it that much harder for someone who has really been raped to come forward.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

*clicks the button that says 'Would you like to know more?"*

I'm sorry this is probably me being stupid but I don't understand?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Better yet ... why don't we mandate that all people can only wear clothes from an approved booklet? The world would be so much better if all girls dressed like nuns without a single hint of their physical presence ... Christ.

Looking over the forum posts am I the only one who realises the irony that rather than actively fighting the problem bt coming down hard on the perpetrator freedom of expression must 'take one for the team'?

A police officer's duty is to uphold the law, be a shield for the people, to act in their best conscience and protect them at the cost of self. Not to act like the fucking morality gestapo of the Middle East

Know what would be a lovely place to live? Somewhere we can do whatever we please, without consequence or thought.

Unfortunately, we live in the real world. As such, there are certain things we need to accept. One of these is that some people cannot be trusted. Only an idiot willingly makes themselves a target for such people.

That cop may as well have been saying "Don't flash rolls of $100 bills at people in the ghetto". It's the exact same concept. His wording probably could have been better, but the idea is to employ some common sense, because like it or not we have to live with the fact that the world isn't perfect.

If you can exercise some level of logic, you'll be fine, no matter how you dress or act, but if you make yourself a tempting target in a vulnerable position, a large portion of the human race will take advantage of that.

Not where I live ... fyi ... please don't actually come here and spout such nonsense because I can guarantee you'll probably be deported. Last time I checked Australians we're part of the human race. Funnily enough I spent alot of time in Japan, last time I checked the Japanese we're also part of the human race and lack of restrictions on dress sense and self expression weren't instantly preyed upon by muggers and rapists either ^_^

You're talking about rapists as if they were socially functional ... it's the sense of empowerment and sexual conquest of the target that gets a rapist to commit their actions.

you know the places where they do limit all sexual liberation is the places which are rape capitals of the world, right?

Oh ... and it's not the same fucking thing. If people are killing eachother over a measly hundred dollars then that's a social problem ... if someone commits an act of rape it is a profoundly aberrant psychology that empowers such an action.

By taking aberrant psychological problems and turning them into societal concerns ... you're almost justifying the psychological condition on the grounds that "Oh, well .. victim should have known better" ... Fuck that, I would be happier seeing society torn down and rebuilt if any such claims we're made then simply persist in such a state.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

As a male I find it insulting that the cop in Toronto, or people like him, think males are so primitive that we can't restrain ourselves from leaping on the first attractive woman we see and rape her. I mean that's really the implication of the statement, don't wear revealing clothes because anyone with Y-chromosome has no self control or a sense of right and wrong.

Unfortunately that is true for some males. Some males look at a woman with tight, revealing clothing and basically go "She is presenting, so she obviously wants someone to have sex with her regardless of what she says".

 

[kurupt87]

Wearing provocative clothing might make a woman a more appealing target, that doesn't make the perpetrator any less of a scumbag.

That's just it:

While I agree that the Toronto officers choice of words and candor were inappropriate, I think what he said wasn't exactly wrong. Of course, you are never, EVER to blame the victim for the crime that was committed against them, but let me throw this scenario to you:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.

Absolutely this. Excellently put, well beyond my ability at least.

What have psychological experts and profilers been telling us for years? Rape is about power, not about sex. That's why homosexual rape happens so much in prison even though statistically it has to be occurring with great frequency with offenders who would never even experiment out in the real world. The look of the victim has absolutely nothing to do with it. The case can be argued that looks may be a factor for perpetrators of date rape, for whom I believe an (at least perceived) inability to otherwise get laid is the prime motivator in the opinions of many, including myself. But rape by force is always, always about power. And possibly little dicks.

Uh huh. And who is more attractive to a sadist? The confident victim who knows they look good and dresses to show it or the unconfident one who dresses conservatively?

 

[Zhukov]

"That chick is wearing a miniskirt and tank top. I'd better rape her!"

Yeah...

No.

Sorry. Not seeing the logic there.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

Yeah, I heard in some countries if a woman, at any time, decides she was raped it is considered raped. That means a woman can consent, they can have sex, and afterwards she can go "Well that wasn't very good. I was raped!". Now tell me that is not unfair.

I did a short course a few weeks back, and this girl was going on about how she was going to claim her ex-boyfriend had raped her because they had had sex when she was 17 (she is 25 now). She said outright it would be purely for revenge, and that she had consent at the time. You want to know the sick thing: all of her female friends agreed that it would be the right thing to do...

No one deserves to be raped, but my god some deserved to be punched in the face...

 

[Agayek]

Not where I live ... fyi ... please don't actually come here and spout such nonsense because I can guarantee you'll probably be deported. Last time I checked Australians we're part of the human race. Funnily enough I spent alot of time in Japan, last time I checked the Japanese we're also part of the human race and lack of restrictions on dress sense amd self expression weren't instantly preyed upon by muggers and rapists either ^_^

You're talking about rapists as if they were socialy functional ... it's the sense of empowerment and sexual conquest of the target that gets a rapist to commit their actions.

you know the places where they do limit all sexual liberation is the places which are rape capitals of the world, right?

Oh ... and it's not the same fucking thing. If people are killing eachother over a measly hundred dollars then that's a social problem ... if someone commits an act of rape it is a profoundly aberrant psychology that empowers such an action.

Okay, first off, there's two different "types", for lack of a better term, of rape cases. The first is an aggressive power struggle between the attacker and the victim, wherein the attacker is seeking to prove their own virility and dominance over another human being via sex. This is abhorrent, and is always the fault of the attacker. Every. Single. Time.

The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame. Obviously most of it lies with the attacker, and they are the one who should be punished severely. That said, the victim is at least partially responsible. These cases quite often involve circumstances where the victim could have stopped it, one of the best examples is simply not accepting drinks from someone you don't know, not leaving your cup unattended, or simply stop drinking before you black out. Is it right that these cases happen? Fuck no, but that doesn't absolve the victim of the fact that they could have stopped it, but didn't.

Also, where the fuck did all this cultural bullshit set in? I have never said, or implied, that there should be limits on what people want to do. All I'm saying is that there are some instances where the victim is indeed at fault. These instances are when the victim could have avoided the whole thing if they took sensible precautions. They shouldn't be punished or held accountable for being attacked, but the fact of the matter is, they did something stupid. Washing that away just because they were attacked doesn't help anyone. If I get mugged while wearing nice clothes in a bad neighborhood, I'm partially to blame, because I made myself a target while vulnerable. People, at their core, are animals, and they will take advantage of such vulnerability. All it takes is to take reasonable precautions and it's extremely unlikely you'll be a victim. And if you are unlucky enough to be a victim, you'll at least have the knowledge that you did everything you could.

 

[DrOswald]

It's kinda like saying if you don't want to be robbed don't own nice shit.

It's kinda like saying if you don't want to be robbed don't take your nice shit and wave it in front of potential muggers.

 

[Harry Mason]

Rapists don't target attractive women, they target vulnerable women. End of story. There are probably some disadvantages to dressing in a risque manner, even dangerous ones, but saying that the manner is which a person dresses (unless we are talking, again, about things that increase vulnerability, like wearing skirts or dresses or ponytails) is just plain ignorant. Rape is not about attraction, it's about domination, humiliation, and power.

Some days I feel like I'm the only one living in the real world... Screw that stupid cop and the rapists he is unintentionally defending.

 

[ThongBonerstorm]

Blaming the victim is basically the polite version of saying "I fully support the perpetrator."

Ignorant comments like that are the reason there's such a firestorm on things like this in the first place. Just because one person makes a mistake doesn't automatically make the other person right.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

*clicks the button that says 'Would you like to know more?"*

I'm sorry this is probably me being stupid but I don't understand?

I want to know more of that case and i stated it as though i were clicking the more info button on the news terminal in the (god forsaken piece of shit) Starship Troopers movie.

A dorky way of saying i want to know more of how the court got to that standing.

tbh with you I really don't know how it came to that, I wasn't at the trial and he doesn't like to talk about it much (He was lucky the judge could have given him even more time but I think he took pity). Without wishing to be cynical I honestly think that when most juries hear the word "rape" they literally stop listening to anything the defense has to say. Such is the stigma that surrounds a crime like that the countries greatest defense barrister could offer all the proof of innocence he liked but as far as the jury is concerned the guy's as guilty as sin and deserves to spend the rest of his life nervously watching his back in the showers.

 

[DoubleTime]

Does it also include being able to do all the things that men usually do, like playing physically aggressive contact sports, putting on a male attire and sporting a masculine hairstyle? Well then, if they really insist on having ?true gender equality?, why is it that divorced women paying for their ex-husbands?alimony stays a rarity? Why are men still expected to pay thousands of ringgit in dowry on their wedding day, when some wealthy women are more than capable of doing the same thing? Why then do women feel completely fine with men paying for dowry and alimony, and not so fine anymore when other things seem to side with men?

This part actually has to do with social structure and the interrelations of the genders. Dowry/wedding rings exist mainly due to the societal connotation that a woman who has been engaged, and then the engagement has been called off, or was married and divorced, is "damaged" for lack of a better term. The amount of value society places on virginity means that a woman who may have had theirs compromised suffers a type of defamation of character and as a result has their wedding ring or dowry as a monetary compensation for this.

This is also why a fair number of modern, self-sufficient women return rings after a canceled engagement. They don't want it since it's a reminder of the relationship, and they don't need the money so they give it back as a way of saying so.

So the issue is not about the cost, but rather the societal expectations of virginity. Which has been changing, and can been seen in the decline of engagement rings in the last decade, but still has a long way to go.

 

[chowderface]

Ignorant comments like that are the reason there's such a firestorm on things like this in the first place.

No, it's really not.

See, they're not saying, "Oh, the victim made a mistake". They're saying "Well, you know, this wouldn't have happened if they weren't such a dirty slut. Serves 'em right." They're saying that the rape and whatnot was some kind of punishment. And there are words for the sort of people that think like that, but I can't say them, or I'll get banned.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

Yeah, I heard in some countries if a woman, at any time, decides she was raped it is considered raped. That means a woman can consent, they can have sex, and afterwards she can go "Well that wasn't very good. I was raped!". Now tell me that is not unfair.

I did a short course a few weeks back, and this girl was going on about how she was going to claim her ex-boyfriend had raped her because they had had sex when she was 17 (she is 25 now). She said outright it would be purely for revenge, and that she had consent at the time. You want to know the sick thing: all of her female friends agreed that it would be the right thing to do...

No one deserves to be raped, but my god some deserved to be punched in the face...

Luckily I don't think many people are that vindictive, but, yeah...

Out of interest, what did the ex do that made her want to fabricate a rape charge to get revenge? Couldn't she just have broken a load of his stuff, or taken a shit on his bed like normal insane ex-girlfriends do?

 

[Flare Phoenix]

A police officer's duty is to uphold the law, be a shield for the people, to act in their best conscience and protect them at the cost of self. Not to act like the fucking morality gestapo of the Middle East

Yeah, but we have to do things to help ourselves as well; you can't expect to provoke people and always expect the police to bail you out of shit. For example: I couldn't stand on top of a building with a megaphone and go "Attention Everyone! My home address is 123 Fake Street and you can get in through a window around the left side which does not lock. The house is completely empty between 9am to 5pm. Oh and my bank account details are..." and expect the police to keep everyone from robbing me.