Blaming the victim

[Flare Phoenix]

I remember a quote I heard for an anti-rape ad: "One in four women will be raped in her life-time. Will it be your mother, your daughter, your sister, or your wife?". That is a powerful message in my opinion.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

You know, I think the thing that is REALLY sick is that whenever a guy gets raped, you always get some dickheads who go "Well why is he complaining? I wish that had happened to me!"

 

[cobra_ky]

The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame. Obviously most of it lies with the attacker, and they are the one who should be punished severely. That said, the victim is at least partially responsible.

Please explain to me how it can possibly be the victim's fault if they are drugged with rohypnol.

In the case of rohypnol no, but I believe is someone goes out, gets completely wasted, they should be held responsible for their actions. But if someone slips something into their drink, hell no.

ok. so if get completely wasted and somebody steals my wallet, i should be held responsible for my actions? what if i pass out drunk and someone kidnaps me and steals my kidney? i'm just trying to get a handle on the ground rules here.

If you actually bothered to read my post, I said a completely wasted person is responsible for THEIR actions. Which means, if you get completely wasted and agree to have sex with someone in your wasted state, you shouldn't be allowed to sober up and claim it was rape just because you did something you regret.

that's fine, but i'm talking about rape, not consensual sex.

As for if someone steals your wallet or kidney, you aren't responsible for them doing it, but you sure as hell are responsible for lowering your defenses and making yourself an easy target.

ok, so no one should get super drunk in public ever. i can understand that.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

*clicks the button that says 'Would you like to know more?"*

I'm sorry this is probably me being stupid but I don't understand?

I want to know more of that case and i stated it as though i were clicking the more info button on the news terminal in the (god forsaken piece of shit) Starship Troopers movie.

A dorky way of saying i want to know more of how the court got to that standing.

tbh with you I really don't know how it came to that, I wasn't at the trial and he doesn't like to talk about it much (He was lucky the judge could have given him even more time but I think he took pity). Without wishing to be cynical I honestly think that when most juries hear the word "rape" they literally stop listening to anything the defense has to say. Such is the stigma that surrounds a crime like that the countries greatest defense barrister could offer all the proof of innocence he liked but as far as the jury is concerned the guy's as guilty as sin and deserves to spend the rest of his life nervously watching his back in the showers.

Look mate me and Google are going to find out about this so maybe some key words to find a news article?

Also the idea that a few seconds during sex can justify it as rape is bull shit. That judge had better have been disbarred, that jury fined, and his wife(sorry if shes family but she is a **** if she pursued charged for that) and she deserves jail time for wasting court time and resources, worsening the gap on what is consent and rape.
The laws seem designed to allow women to criminalize sex they regret because its so fucking easy and so many get away with it.

And apparently in Marryland it is 100% legal for a woman to say 'Get the fuck out of my snatch or i yell rape" and if he doesn't register what she said, pull out and get off/out from under her within 5 seconds it is legally rape.

How can a law like that even get passed?

Well it's like the law that says if a robber breaks into your house and cuts himself on a knife you had left lying around, he can sue you for injury.

HOW DO THESE LAWS GET PASSED!?!?!
Its just so idiotic.

Wow, I gotta say I'd be tempted to warn off any guys she might have lined up for the future if I were you.

Cases like that are why i hate the legal system.
Justice is blind, a judge and jury try to guide her hand, lawyers try toi prevent her from hitting their client, at any point in time 50% of lawyers in a courtroom are trying to mislead justice from claiming a guilty man, & common sense has to be used to fill in the blanks.

Luckily we have a centre-right government in atm so hopefully the pendulum will start to swing back the other way a little. Mind you, they've still got to contend with the largely left wing media.

 

[DrOswald]

I am not saying women should not wear sexy clothing.

I am saying it is wise for women to take precautions to protect themselves from rape, at least until we live in a world where rapists don't exist.

And what precautions should they take, aside from not wearing sexy clothing?

Well, these 2 links can give us a decent start.

http://cityofdavis.org/police/investigations/rapeprev.cfm
http://www.kevincoffee.com/women_safety/rape_prevention_tips.htm

Though some of the tips are kind of weird. Does anyone know if there is a federally approved rape prevention document? I didn't see one.

edit: Also, a quote from my post: "I am not saying women should not wear sexy clothing."

 

[Johnnyallstar]

The worst thing about pointing blame to the victim is what has happened as a society where now everyone tries to play the victim card in a twisted type of social jujitsu. Where the predators act as the victims to force other people to capitulate.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!

*clicks the button that says 'Would you like to know more?"*

I'm sorry this is probably me being stupid but I don't understand?

I want to know more of that case and i stated it as though i were clicking the more info button on the news terminal in the (god forsaken piece of shit) Starship Troopers movie.

A dorky way of saying i want to know more of how the court got to that standing.

tbh with you I really don't know how it came to that, I wasn't at the trial and he doesn't like to talk about it much (He was lucky the judge could have given him even more time but I think he took pity). Without wishing to be cynical I honestly think that when most juries hear the word "rape" they literally stop listening to anything the defense has to say. Such is the stigma that surrounds a crime like that the countries greatest defense barrister could offer all the proof of innocence he liked but as far as the jury is concerned the guy's as guilty as sin and deserves to spend the rest of his life nervously watching his back in the showers.

Look mate me and Google are going to find out about this so maybe some key words to find a news article?

Also the idea that a few seconds during sex can justify it as rape is bull shit. That judge had better have been disbarred, that jury fined, and his wife(sorry if shes family but she is a **** if she pursued charged for that) and she deserves jail time for wasting court time and resources, worsening the gap on what is consent and rape.
The laws seem designed to allow women to criminalize sex they regret because its so fucking easy and so many get away with it.

And apparently in Marryland it is 100% legal for a woman to say 'Get the fuck out of my snatch or i yell rape" and if he doesn't register what she said, pull out and get off/out from under her within 5 seconds it is legally rape.

How can a law like that even get passed?

Well I'm from the UK so I don't know how similar state laws in the US are but I think the main problem isn't that the law is biased against men. The law is just badly thought out so there's room for smart and manipulative individuals to exploit it, and that juries are naturally biased against defendants with crimes of this magnitude.

There really wasn't much more the judge could have done. The Jury had found him guilty of rape so he had to dole out a fitting punishment for rape no matter what he thought of the decision (under the circumstances the judge gave the softest sentence he could.) And don't worry she's not family, and I've said worse about her.

I'm sorry but I really don't want to go into any more detail. It's a very personal issue for him so I'm not sure if there is an article on it anywhere but I really don't want to direct people to it if there is, considering what he was convicted of even if it was a pile of shit. Suffice it to say it happened and it was a fucking sham but I really don't want to name names or places on the internet without him knowing about it.

Alright i didn't want to get any sleep tonight anyways but i understand the reasons and should i find anything it won't leave the hold in the ground i find it in.

By the way what the hell is it with this month?
Had that ham of an ad saying verbal abuse was=to physical abuse
Seems like an extra strong wave of feminism induced hatred of men
Seems like i have seen more about the double standards in society involving women and how they are in many ways(brutal ones at that) held over men.

Idk maybe I'm getting older and noticing it more or maybe it is just happening more this month.

I'm yet to see a Demotivational poster captioned 'The World' *insert facepalm related image 'What is it coming to?'... but it can't be long now.

 

[Bobbity]

Fuck 'em. This is not only stupidity, it's disgusting, morally abhorrent, and fucking evil. To blame having been raped on the subject of the rape itself - a fucking eleven year old girl, is fucking - I don't think I have the words to express what I feel about those people. Fuck them to the deepest depths of whatever hell they happen to believe in.

I think that this used to be the standard practice during the fucking Dark Ages, and apparently these fuckwits haven't moved on from there.

There's no other way to look at this; rape is not acceptable in any scenario, much less on an eleven year old girl - who was assaulted by eighteen men. For anyone to try and defend that position is to mark themself as a person devoid of conscience, morality or empathy.

Spoiler: Okay, one last thing.

[HEADING=2]FUCK THEM.[/HEADING]

 

[Rayne870]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

 

[SovietSecrets]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

Would you rather rape a fat chick in sweat pants and a hoodie or an actual good looking chick?

OT: Rape is sad all around. I haven't heard much cases where the victim was one to blame, but rape is rape. Dude who did it should be put away. Rarely does the victim ever get any blame because honestly they don't deserve it and for anyone who has been through a rape, I wish them the best to be able to make it through and get their lives back on track.

 

[Katana314]

Replies like Bobbity's upset me. The worst part is, I think the basis of what you're saying is agreeable by EVERYONE here, including the cop: Rape is never justified. Horribly misreading someone's opinion just seems to lead to a spiral of hatred.

Please, for god's sake, if you are the LEAST bit surprised about an opinion or statement made by somebody, be sure you get the context and the full meaning of what they meant before you go on hate-speech.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I agree with everything you said, with 2 exceptions:

1. Sexy clothes are designed to show off a woman's body. It is showing off their nice, ahem, "shit." (I apologize for the unfortunate wording, it made sense when I made that last post.)

A: Rape capitals of the world are places where the sexual liberalization of women has been most curtailed.

2. Everyone is a potential mugger/rapist, unless you actually know them and trust them, and even then it is not 100%. We live in a dangerous world.

A: No, they aren't ... and the reasons why people mug others are not the same why perpetrators of rape perform their attrocities.

And dangerous is purely subjective ... never been mugged in Sydney, come close (I think). But what the hey, better to live in fear and have your ability to express yourself crushed because someone wants to dictate to you how it might be 'dangerous' otherwise ... kinda like a veiled threat really ... as if men will come and rape me if I decide to show a little flesh when I go out.

Perfectly logical reason for me to hide indoors my entire life and wear a tent to evade righteous persecution.

...you know ... rather than just having people condemn rapists simply for being rapists without passing judgement on the victim. But that would be unreasonable now wouldn't it?

 

[Rayne870]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

Would you rather rape a fat chick in sweat pants and a hoodie or an actual good looking chick?

OT: Rape is sad all around. I haven't heard much cases where the victim was one to blame, but rape is rape. Dude who did it should be put away. Rarely does the victim ever get any blame because honestly they don't deserve it and for anyone who has been through a rape, I wish them the best to be able to make it through and get their lives back on track.

That has little to do with it as well. Rape is a power, or opportunity thing, not strictly a sexual impulse. My sister ain't no model but that didn't stop the guy...

...and for some dark humor, the fat chick runs slower.

 

[Cadren]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

Would you rather rape a fat chick in sweat pants and a hoodie or an actual good looking chick?

Although it seems commonsense that more attractive females get raped more often, this is not true when looking at rape statistics. Rape victims are all ages, from pre-adolescent to senior citizen and as mentioned before, around half of rape cases happen to people under 18.

 

[SovietSecrets]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

Would you rather rape a fat chick in sweat pants and a hoodie or an actual good looking chick?

OT: Rape is sad all around. I haven't heard much cases where the victim was one to blame, but rape is rape. Dude who did it should be put away. Rarely does the victim ever get any blame because honestly they don't deserve it and for anyone who has been through a rape, I wish them the best to be able to make it through and get their lives back on track.

That has little to do with it as well. Rape is a power, or opportunity thing, not strictly a sexual impulse. My sister ain't no model but that didn't stop the guy...

...and for some dark humor, the fat chick runs slower.

I was trying to be humorous and not serious in that first line towards you, but yeah sorry about your sister mang/womang.

 

[y1fella]

So there's been a fair amount of talk in the news lately about the issue of blaming the victim, especially in regards to rape cases. Some of this is due to the case of the 11 year old from Texas: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20042118-504083.html

Another thing that stoked the fires was the recent comment of a cop in Toronto saying "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order to not be victimized."

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/04/slutwalk_toronto_takes_its_message_to_the_street_/
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-slut-walk-hits-dallas-streets-story,0,2823196.story

Personally I think that there is no reason EVER that someone should be sexually assaulted or raped. Because you find their clothing arousing or provocative, or they are very flirty due to over intoxication is not an excuse to ignore their rights as a human being, and this goes for both genders and every sexuality. Everyone should be able to dress how they feel comfortable without fear of personal harm.

So fellow Escapists, what are your thoughts on this whole issue? Do you think that there is too much victim blaming going on or that it really is the fault of women for wearing short-shorts or miniskirts?

EDIT:
I'm noticing a lot of blame being placed on men as rapists and women as false accusers and I would like to point out things go both ways. Yes those statistics are higher but it doesn't change the fact some men falsely accuse women and some women rape men. The point should be less about one gender in the grand scheme and more about are we coddling the attackers -who perpetrated physical and psychological torture- or is anyone in what constitutes provocative clothing at fault (e.g. a man in a nut-slinger speedo is asking for rape just as much as a woman in short-shorts)?

I think the blame falls squarely on the attacker. But you are a stinking moron asking for trouble if you act as mentioned.
Also I feel it's worth mentioning if you're a female in Dubai and if you get raped don't mention it to the police. Because if there aren't at least three male witnesses who agree with you it will be viewed as adultery a crime punishable with prison time over there. And their jails are much worse then ours.
So the situation really isn't entirely equal. Over here it is pretty much yeah but situations and circumstances change so there isn't a blanket solution.

 

[SovietSecrets]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

Would you rather rape a fat chick in sweat pants and a hoodie or an actual good looking chick?

Although it seems commonsense that more attractive females get raped more often, this is not true when looking at rape statistics. Rape victims are all ages, from pre-adolescent to senior citizen and as mentioned before, around half of rape cases happen to people under 18.

It was a joke, I know it has nothing to do with how people are dressed or what age they are.

 

[Rayne870]

Rape seldom has anything to do with what the victim is wearing. Anyway you are right there is no excuse for rape other than the fact that the person committing the act is deranged.

Would you rather rape a fat chick in sweat pants and a hoodie or an actual good looking chick?

OT: Rape is sad all around. I haven't heard much cases where the victim was one to blame, but rape is rape. Dude who did it should be put away. Rarely does the victim ever get any blame because honestly they don't deserve it and for anyone who has been through a rape, I wish them the best to be able to make it through and get their lives back on track.

That has little to do with it as well. Rape is a power, or opportunity thing, not strictly a sexual impulse. My sister ain't no model but that didn't stop the guy...

...and for some dark humor, the fat chick runs slower.

I was trying to be humorous and not serious in that first line towards you, but yeah sorry about your sister mang/womang.

Sorry didn't catch the humor...which oddly I should have since we seem to share the same type. Sucks that it happened to my sis, but she doesn't seem too damaged, it's been a few months and she seems to be ok. I'm gonna do a reality check and talk with her again this weekend to make sure she's still ok, she's just now entering her first serious relationship at 16. I'm pretty much surrounded by victims actually.

 

[Bobbity]

Replies like Bobbity's upset me. The worst part is, I think the basis of what you're saying is agreeable by EVERYONE here, including the cop: Rape is never justified. Horribly misreading someone's opinion just seems to lead to a spiral of hatred.

Please, for god's sake, if you are the LEAST bit surprised about an opinion or statement made by somebody, be sure you get the context and the full meaning of what they meant before you go on hate-speech.

Sorry if I came out a bit strong; I know that the cop didn't mean to shift the blame to the girl; he simply meant to say that she should have been more careful. My problem is twofold: that the people at the town hall meeting gathered to show their support for the rapists. No matter how provocatively someone is dressed, it is still the fault of the rapist for assaulting her. Everyone here agrees, I hope, that rape is bad, but here we have people coming out not to say that the girl was stupid, but to show their support for the rapists, and by extension imply that the fault was the girl's. A person should be able to prance down the street naked without danger of rape, because the potential rapists should know not to act on their impulses. No matter how beautiful the victim, it was the rapist that took the action.

Secondly, what this child has been through was undoubtedly a horrendous experience, and now people are coming out and telling her off. She's gone through a traumatic experience, and she doesn't need this crap about it. My concern that some of the people on this forum see this dressing provocatively as an excuse for the crime, I already talked about, but I'm also concerned that any responsibility could be affixed to the victim. To imply that this rape was somehow partially her fault is wrong: completely and utterly wrong.

Also, the argument that rapists exist, and that she should have taken precautions, is stupid. If your daughter or little sister is catching the train home from a friend's house, late at night, and is raped, are you really going to affix the blame to her? Even if she's gone out wearing a blooding transparent top, would tell her that it was her own fault?

 

[DrOswald]

I agree with everything you said, with 2 exceptions:

1. Sexy clothes are designed to show off a woman's body. It is showing off their nice, ahem, "shit." (I apologize for the unfortunate wording, it made sense when I made that last post.)

A: Rape capitals of the world are places where the sexual liberalization of women has been most curtailed.

Has nothing to do with the comment, really. It's almost as if you never read my post. I was just pointing out that sexy clothes attract attention to a woman's body.

2. Everyone is a potential mugger/rapist, unless you actually know them and trust them, and even then it is not 100%. We live in a dangerous world.

A: No, they aren't ... and the reasons why people mug others are not the same why perpetrators of rape perform their attrocities.

I never said that muggers and rapists are similarly motivated, or that rapists are always muggers or such. Only that anyone could be a potential rapist OR mugger. Be it a close friend, trusted mentor, or a complete stranger.

And dangerous is purely subjective ... never been mugged in Sydney, come close (I think). But what the hey, better to live in fear and have your ability to express yourself crushed because someone wants to dictate to you how it might be 'dangerous' otherwise ... kinda like a veiled threat really ... as if men will come and rape me if I decide to show a little flesh when I go out.

Perfectly logical reason for me to hide indoors my entire life and wear a tent to evade righteous persecution.

...you know ... rather than just having people condemn rapists simply for being rapist without passing judgement on the victim. But that would be unreasonable, now wouldn't it?

Well, I don't suggest hiding in your house cowering in fear or never expressing yourself, and the victim should never be judged for such violence committed against them. I am simply against rape, and I want to help people prevent being victims of such a horrible crime. And I think it is possible to take basic steps to prevent becoming a victim without a significant negative effect to their life. It is simple really. If you don't want to get hit by a car, don't play in the highway. If you don't want to be mugged, don't flash $100 bills while in an area known for violent crime. And if you don't want to get raped, don't make yourself excessively vulnerable to rapists. None of these precautions will prevent all such tragedies, but they can help reduce the risk.