Breast Sizes and Complaints

[elvor0]

I hate the new Lara for a series of reasons.

- She is MORE sexualized now that she is "realistic" than when she was a perfect hourglass-shaped woman with balloon boobs.

- "You will want to protect her". Cue sexy and pointless moanings of Lara during the game.

- She went from being her own character to simply being a female version of Nathan Drake (even including the sexy "goodlooking person in danger and dirt" thing).

Oldschool Lara was only slightly more of a character than the paddles in Pong.

Oldschool Lara wasn't in a game that was trying to be a character driven drama. (I'm not going to count American Lara, just the one in TR 1-5, because they're somewhat different characters)

New Laras character is....what exactly? "I'm scared" and "I can do this"? She's no more of a character than old school Lara croft, but oldschool Lara Croft wasn't pretending or trying to be anything else other than an action hero. New Lara just gets off on "dem feels" and because shes "vulnerable", she's not so much a character as a dramatic set piece for punishment. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed TR2013, but lets not pretend it told an amazing story because it didn't. Everyone is a stock character through and through.

To me, Old Lara was way better as a strong female character. She may not be a particularly complex or deep character, but her gender is never bought up, even her enemies respect her as an enemy and at what she does, heck, Sophia Leigh asks for her autograph. She isn't a strong "female", she's just strong. Yes, we don't go into her likes and dislikes, her inner demons, her struggles for survival, but not every story needs that. She's a superhero.

New Laras story isn't even told very well, she goes from being a timid, unsure and weak personality to uber capable action hero quite literally overnight. Yes, its a video game, all video game characters do impossible things for a living, but this is a game that's trying to tell a "grounded", character driven drama, and that doesn't work if you accelerate and compress time.

I don't like being beaten over the head with the notion that not only is she female, but she's SOOO CAPABLE. Because in my head I just say "So what? So was my Lara, and the game didn't feel the need to remind me of it every five seconds." It's almost the opposite of its own goal, because I was never under the impression that women can't be capable action heroes in the first place, in its attempt to be empowering, it faulters because it begins with the notion that she couldn't be powerful /because/ she is female and must overcome that, despite the fact that I'm playing fucking Tomb Raider, a series known for its badass action lead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9893950/Lara-Croft-in-Tomb-Raider-I-dont-need-reminding-that-shes-a-woman.html

Is something I'm going to add as a supplementary piece to my thoughts.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

OP, whatever your personal experience may be, those are far from the average size of breasts. Most of those are what large breasts look like, and the rest are what fake, really large breasts look like.

I'll say it again: all of these characters are among the most popular characters in gaming. There is a reason for that. Maybe because being a "cardboard cutout which is a vessel for people to project on"... ISN'T A BAD THING IN A VIDEOGAME.

There's a major difference in a character intended to be a self insert for the player, and a character in which the player wants to insert himself.

Both can be bland and devoid of characterization, though only one of them generally serves the purpose of projection.

 

[Souplex]

For me, size is only a small part of a complicated equation that includes perkiness, breast/waist ratio,, waist/hip ratio, and many others.

 

[Gengisgame]

There's nothing wrong with liking big breasts (in this case I'll say D and above) or butts or anything. The issue as I understand it is that there's not much variety and people are capable of liking more than just big breasts, butts ext.

Honestly, I find the new Lara more attractive. Possibly because I'm sexually attracted to dirt.

<.<

I highly doubt that.

What is far more likely is that you are more comfortable with the new Lara. It's the reason that Hollywoods female scene is almost exclusively made of thin women with small breasts and women like Christina Hendricks are very rare despite the appeal to males.

Large breasts are seen as sexual and appealing to men and we can't have that can we. You must admit that most things with large breasted women is attacked by a fairly large, nasty and vocal group who think they are morally right.

 

[Something Amyss]

What I attacked was the character of the new Lara.

Except when accusing me of things not said and making completely contradictory claims.

Oldschool Lara wasn't in a game that was trying to be a character driven drama. (I'm not going to count American Lara, just the one in TR 1-5, because they're somewhat different characters)\

Not the point, and I don't really care how you feel about either Lara. A claim, a false claim as to Lara's character was made. WW made a positive claim about Lara's character. Apparently, the real reason had nothing to do with what I said (seems to be a running theme) but because she has such a massive dislike for current Lara (also seems to be a running theme).

If you're not addressing that, then you're not addressing my only point on the matter.

Well, except the one where I said I was more attracted to new Lara than old one. Speaking of....

I highly doubt that.

You can doubt my sexuality all you want, but I find new Lara to be more sexually attractive. You can accuse me of lying or try and police your own sense of sexual standards on me, but new Lara's the one I would rather fuck.

Though I don't find "comfort" and "attractiveness" to be mutually exclusive, either.

Also, sounds like you're arguing cultivation theory, which is the same one that argues video games can enforce and normalise sexism. Might want to pick your arguments better, because I know you don't like that argument.

 

[hentropy]

Chances are you did indeed know a lot of women with breasts that big (at least clothed and supported by a bra)- but chances are they had more than 3% body fat, unlike a lot of those women.

There really isn't a meaningful "average" breast size, because breast size is decided first by how much adipose fat is stored in your body and secondly by the distribution of that adipose fat and thirdly by genetic factors that may make them bigger or smaller than others with similar body types.

I think what some might be asking for is not that huge breasts are bad, but that character designers occasionally maybe, just maybe consider making a character with bigger boobs that also has the body fat composition that would justify such a bust.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

T&A is fine and all but give me some HOT, THICK PHAT girls any day a da week; so far, Ellie from Borderlands 2 is my only girl that meets that image (that I know of, admittedly), other women that are drawn like that are intentionally made to be ugly or otherwise disgusting.

 

[Something Amyss]

In fairness it depends on which 'oldschool' Lara Wyvern means. True oldschool LC had only slightly more character than the pong paddles.

That would be great, but WW went on to talk up the perks of the blank slate character, so that seems an argument for the early character.

 

[Dizchu]

I don't mind them, but I like them only when they're wellmade. No, Lara wasn't wellmade, but she was the very first female self-insert character, and it meant a lot for me when I was a young girl. Things are changing and female protagonists in videogames are getting more varied and cooler, but back in those days Lara was nearly the only time I was a female protagonist.

A lot of my female friends (and my mother) really liked the Tomb Raider games, and I think despite the widespread criticism of Lara as a character, she was really appealing.

But honestly I think Samus Aran was a much better "self-insert" female character. Maybe that's just me though (also I believe in Super Metroid she was 6ft 3 which is incredibly refreshing compared to all the dainty women featured in other games).

I know most teenage boys never really had a decent way to understand how breasts worked but now with videogame boob physics and photoshop I think they're worse off than ever. I like burying my face into somebody cleavage as much as the next gynephile but boobs aren't helium balloons on the inside of somebody's chest. They're fat. The fatter you are the bigger your boobs will get.

I thought they were like bags of sand? :^)

But yes, even small breasts have weight to them. If they're like any kinds of balloons, they're like water balloons. And not water balloons filled to maximum capacity.

No offence OP, but maybe you should stop basing your views on women from anime and video games.

 

[infohippie]

It's threads like this that make me ashamed of liking the female body.

It makes me despise, and scornful of, the people who WANT to shame anyone for liking the female body.

Boobs of all different kinds are great. I'm a big fan of them, from enormous to nearly flat. As someone above me said, it depends on the person (or game character) and what looks good on them specifically. I don't like games where all female characters are given huge tits just because, but if a character design works well with big boobs, or with tiny ones, I see nothing wrong in liking them for what they are.

 

[wolfyrik]

I hate the new Lara for a series of reasons.

- She is MORE sexualized now that she is "realistic" than when she was a perfect hourglass-shaped woman with balloon boobs.

- "You will want to protect her". Cue sexy and pointless moanings of Lara during the game.

- She went from being her own character to simply being a female version of Nathan Drake (even including the sexy "goodlooking person in danger and dirt" thing).

Oldschool Lara was only slightly more of a character than the paddles in Pong.

Oldschool Lara wasn't in a game that was trying to be a character driven drama. (I'm not going to count American Lara, just the one in TR 1-5, because they're somewhat different characters)

New Laras character is....what exactly? "I'm scared" and "I can do this"? She's no more of a character than old school Lara croft, but oldschool Lara Croft wasn't pretending or trying to be anything else other than an action hero. New Lara just gets off on "dem feels" and because shes "vulnerable", she's not so much a character as a dramatic set piece for punishment. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed TR2013, but lets not pretend it told an amazing story because it didn't. Everyone is a stock character through and through.

To me, Old Lara was way better as a strong female character. She may not be a particularly complex or deep character, but her gender is never bought up, even her enemies respect her as an enemy and at what she does, heck, Sophia Leigh asks for her autograph. She isn't a strong "female", she's just strong. Yes, we don't go into her likes and dislikes, her inner demons, her struggles for survival, but not every story needs that. She's a superhero.

New Laras story isn't even told very well, she goes from being a timid, unsure and weak personality to uber capable action hero quite literally overnight. Yes, its a video game, all video game characters do impossible things for a living, but this is a game that's trying to tell a "grounded", character driven drama, and that doesn't work if you accelerate and compress time.

I don't like being beaten over the head with the notion that not only is she female, but she's SOOO CAPABLE. Because in my head I just say "So what? So was my Lara, and the game didn't feel the need to remind me of it every five seconds." It's almost the opposite of its own goal, because I was never under the impression that women can't be capable action heroes in the first place, in its attempt to be empowering, it faulters because it begins with the notion that she couldn't be powerful /because/ she is female and must overcome that, despite the fact that I'm playing fucking Tomb Raider, a series known for its badass action lead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9893950/Lara-Croft-in-Tomb-Raider-I-dont-need-reminding-that-shes-a-woman.html

Is something I'm going to add as a supplementary piece to my thoughts.

I agree, I enjoyed the original tomb raider ( the sequals not so much, got tired of the forumla). Most of the reasons I didn't enjoy TR2013 were gameplay, way too many QTEs but there was soemthing else nagging me all the way through the game and people have hit the nail in this thread. It's the constant references to Lara's gender. They've gone so far into trying not be sexist, that they've managed to come out the other side into actual sexism on quite a sinister level.

Big Boobs Lara was purile, in the same way that musclep-headed, mysoginistic Duke Nukem was purile but there was no real sexism in the TR. Nobody wanted to protect her because she didn't need it. Lara kicked ass. She wasn't breaking into tears every few minutes, no veiled threats of sexual assault and didn't need to be "vulnerable". Just an adventurer with guns.... who happens to be a girl for a change. We still enjoyed playing as her, still enjoyed finding secrets and shooting baddies.

I can see what they were aiming for, but they missed it. TR2013 should have been a story about a student who was exploring with friends and colleagues suddenly found themselves in a nightmare situation where they had to fight to survive, oh and happened to be girl.

Instad what we got was a lost confused, vulnerable girl who suddenly finds herself in a nightmare situation oh and she happens a student or something, which is kind of why she's on this boat or whatever, erm something story-ish. She's a girl by the way. A girl who's a lead in a game and this her creation story. Did we mention she's a girl? We're not sexist cos look, there's a girl. We know girls can't be tough but she's got to end up that way so look there's a potential sexal assault, that's why she has to pick up that gun, so it's ok that she's a girl who can fight and totally reasonable.......did we mention she's a girl?

 

[Dizchu]

It makes me despise, and scornful of, the people who WANT to shame anyone for liking the female body.

Boobs of all different kinds are great. I'm a big fan of them, from enormous to nearly flat. As someone above me said, it depends on the person (or game character) and what looks good on them specifically. I don't like games where all female characters are given huge tits just because, but if a character design works well with big boobs, or with tiny ones, I see nothing wrong in liking them for what they are.

The problem is when people treat the female body as if it's a sports car or something, and that's the uncomfortable feeling I get from threads like these.

 

[elvor0]

Oldschool Lara wasn't in a game that was trying to be a character driven drama. (I'm not going to count American Lara, just the one in TR 1-5, because they're somewhat different characters)\

Not the point, and I don't really care how you feel about either Lara. A claim, a false claim as to Lara's character was made. WW made a positive claim about Lara's character. Apparently, the real reason had nothing to do with what I said (seems to be a running theme) but because she has such a massive dislike for current Lara (also seems to be a running theme).

But it is a point you made:

- She went from being her own character to simply being a female version of Nathan Drake (even including the sexy "goodlooking person in danger and dirt" thing).

Oldschool Lara was only slightly more of a character than the paddles in Pong.

That is the point you made and what I'm adding to. The new vs old Lara debate has long since moved on from her tits, you're the one that bought up people being angry about her lowered bust size, but I'm not seeing that here, nor do I remember it being a thing either. The reason people are not directly talking to you about Laras tits is because they clearly don't want to. Noone cares about her tits, they care that a character they enjoyed got gutted.

WW didn't make a false claim, he stated an opinion that you didn't agree with. He didn't say old Lara was a deep character, he said she was her OWN character. There's a difference.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The cup size is the band size subtracted from the bust size, inches equaling letters. It's not a ratio as such, but it does tell you how many inches larger the fullest portion of the bra has to be. So yeah, a "C" average would indicate that women, on average, have breasts with approximately a 3" larger circumference then their torso.

Of course, there's a good number of women who don't know how to find a fitting bra, which can be an issue (and lead to a lot of discomfort), so I often wonder where the numbers are coming from.

Though, isn't there a thing that goes "plus or minus a bit if the designers feel like making it confusing" in there somewhere?

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I'm not and haven't exactly been selective when it comes to the size of my romantic partners' chest-borne assets and have experience with a wide range, so I guess you could say I don't really have a horse in this race.

Essentially:

#AllBoobsMatter

My family's women-folk seem to be bustier than the average so it's not really something I've noticed as being out of place in media, unless it's those "That's no moon!" size you occasionally see in hentai or whatever. That stuff isn't really appealing.

But I know girls with EEs (maybe Fs, honestly), DDs, and A cups. Most of whom are fit.

If she's attractive to me then her chest is, at most, a secondary or tertiary characteristic. Her tits are only part of the overall package and, frankly, I'm not going to be looking into her tits while we spoon.

All the time anyway.

...Unless you're like...heavily into...I'll say "paizuri" to be a bit less crude about it. Then I can see a definite problem with smaller breasts.

As for DoA's latest incarnation? They don't look that far outside of the norm or possiblity. Like, at all.

 

[wolfyrik]

I'm not and haven't exactly been selective when it comes to the size of my romantic partners' chest-borne assets and have experience with a wide range, so I guess you could say I don't really have a horse in this race.

Essentially:

#AllBoobsMatter

My family's women-folk seem to be bustier than the average so it's not really something I've noticed as being out of place in media, unless it's those "That's no moon!" size you occasionally see in hentai or whatever. That stuff isn't really appealing.

But I know girls with EEs (maybe Fs, honestly), DDs, and A cups. Most of whom are fit.

If she's attractive to me then her chest is, at most, a secondary or tertiary characteristic. Her tits are only part of the overall package and, frankly, I'm not going to be looking into her tits while we spoon.

All the time anyway.

...Unless you're like...heavily into...I'll say "paizuri" to be a bit less crude about it. Then I can see a definite problem with smaller breasts.

As for DoA's latest incarnation? They don't look that far outside of the norm or possiblity. Like, at all.

This, in my experience, is how most straight/bi men actually feel. It seems that the less of a deal is made about boobs in a culture, the less taboo or sexualised they are, the less they matter to men and women. There are plenty of cultures where women don't cover their breasts at all and men don't see the breasts in a sexual way. Instead they're just a feature, like your nose or eyes. The western problem with boobs I suspect is because of religious prudism. MLike most things wrong with our society, it's likely the Victorians fault.For example, a period of medieval fashion which isn't readily replicated in re-enactment or renaissance fayres, saw the bust-line on dresses cut to just above the nipple. Aureoles peeping over the top on display. Something not seen again til the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

It's a stark and bizarre contrast to modern sensibilities where a woman can have a bikini which literally covers her nipple and aureoles and this is acceptable, but if a woman shows her actual nipple, even just to feed her baby, there's an outcry of rage and horror.

We've gotten pretty confused up as a society.

 

[infohippie]

It makes me despise, and scornful of, the people who WANT to shame anyone for liking the female body.

Boobs of all different kinds are great. I'm a big fan of them, from enormous to nearly flat. As someone above me said, it depends on the person (or game character) and what looks good on them specifically. I don't like games where all female characters are given huge tits just because, but if a character design works well with big boobs, or with tiny ones, I see nothing wrong in liking them for what they are.

The problem is when people treat the female body as if it's a sports car or something, and that's the uncomfortable feeling I get from threads like these.

True, it is not the nicest to view a woman as a collection of curves. However, men like to look at a pretty girl and always will. So long as your interaction with women is treating them as a person and not eye candy, I think there is nothing wrong with appreciating the female form.

 

[wolfyrik]

It makes me despise, and scornful of, the people who WANT to shame anyone for liking the female body.

Boobs of all different kinds are great. I'm a big fan of them, from enormous to nearly flat. As someone above me said, it depends on the person (or game character) and what looks good on them specifically. I don't like games where all female characters are given huge tits just because, but if a character design works well with big boobs, or with tiny ones, I see nothing wrong in liking them for what they are.

The problem is when people treat the female body as if it's a sports car or something, and that's the uncomfortable feeling I get from threads like these.

True, it is not the nicest to view a woman as a collection of curves. However, men like to look at a pretty girl and always will. So long as your interaction with women is treating them as a person and not eye candy, I think there is nothing wrong with appreciating the female form.

Agreed and this goes both ways. Women are rarely afraid to comment on a man's build and appearence, right down to their *ahem* pysical attributes. Appreciation of form is perfectly healthy and normal for all genders and most sexualities (within reason ie Jimmy Saville not so normal or healthy), it's how we treat each other beyond that, which counts.

 

[Dizchu]

True, it is not the nicest to view a woman as a collection of curves. However, men like to look at a pretty girl and always will. So long as your interaction with women is treating them as a person and not eye candy, I think there is nothing wrong with appreciating the female form.

Well of course, I appreciate the female form too. I also appreciate exaggerations of the female form (I mean even things like makeup are meant to exaggerate facial features). But the problem is when people like OP base their attitudes on these exaggerations and idealisations instead of real people.

 

[NPC009]

I've already seen bodyfat and bra sizes addressed, but I'd like to add this: many bras come with build-in lies. For cup sizes A and B, it's not uncommon to see a fair amount of padding, making the breasts look one, or even two, sizes larger. Even bras in larger sizes may have some padding, because this helps give the breasts a nice shape and hides the nipples. Basically, the padding makes everything look smooth when you're wearing thin clothes such as t-shirts. And yes, it makes the breasts look bigger as well. And that's just basic padding. There are many more ways to make breasts look bigger. Smaller, too, actually. Specialty stores sell bras that can make your breasts look a size smaller. These minimizer bras are great if your breasts are so large they throw off your proportions and/or you don't want the attention that comes with large breasts.

As for what's average, that's actually pretty easy to find out: look at what big brands sell. Many big brands stop at C or D cups for smaller band sizes. If you're a 32D or 34E (which would be similar to or smaller than what many consider average on a videogame character), you can forget about buying bras at H&M, for instance. Oh, and good luck finding something with a nice colour or fun pattern. Most larger sizes stick to the basic white, light brown ("skin colour") and black.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with liking big breasts. However, it's a bad idea to let the media twist your idea of average. You'll only end up disappointed.