Bureaucracy-Em-Up

[Moth_Monk]

Well what about Yahtzee's Sarah Palin joke? I mean if the transgender one was "bad"...

 

[thethird0611]

Considering that transgenderism can often be identified in very young kids, it's extremely unlikely that they're suffering from a mental disorder that's typically found with adults. Mind you, it would help if I knew more about what you were talking about by providing a source/reference from a credible, professional, and reasonably unbiased site.

The paper you posted says transgenderism is a mental disorder. If you're saying someone thinking they're a different person is a mental disorder and someone thinking they're a different gender isn't a mental disorder, what are you basing that on?

Also, stating children don't suffer from mental disorders is talking out of your ass. That's completely untrue.

Your original post doesn't even make sense. "People are skeptical of transsexuality?" No they aren't. No one is saying they don't exist. What exactly was your original point?

The American Psychiatric Association revised their manual and stance on it not being a disorder anymore. They state that it has been found to be a condition that naturally occurs and thusly can't be medically classified as a disorder.
Here is a reference link to that fact: http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/03/1271431/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder/

Children do suffer from mental disorders, but gender dysphoria isn't a mental disorder. We don't even know what exactly causes it, but we know that it has existed consistently since very early civilizations.

There are plenty of people that are skeptical of transgenderism, but they tend to be extreme religious fundamentallists and people with believe the numerous false stereotypes that is typical in widespread media.

Im gonna give you some info for what your talking about with the link you posted. Ive got a Psych background and know fully about the DSM (believe me, I have to learn just how everything was classified, down to minor details)

Transgenderism was taken out, but gender dysphoria is pretty much the umbrella classification for transgender folks. So if you are transgender, your classified under gender dysphoria. Pretty much what changed in the DSM was...

Being Transgender - Not a disorder.
Trouble accepting your birth gender identity - Disorder.

Which I agree is a -very- needed revision of the DSM 5, but so many people dont understand what it means.

EDIT: revision

 

[Speksi]

0.3% of American adults in 2011 were estimated to transgender (or at least openly so). Population of the whole US in 2011 was 311.6 million. That's 93.5 million adult transgender people in America in 2011. The are even many 4 year olds who openly identify as being the opposite gender to their sex. Look up a little transgirl named Jazz, who happens to have and identical twin brother who doesn't identify as trans. Transgenders clearly exist, and you choosing to be blind to that doesn't change the fact that they exist.

As was pointed already, your math is off, champ.

4 year olds might also think they are fairies, birds, lions or anything else. They are four, what they say or identify as is not exactly solid evidence.

An identical twin does not necessarily grow in the exact same environment, or share the exact same brain. Some brains are more likely the be effected by mental disorders, and the environment plays a large part in it. Put a man grown up by his lesbian mom, her life partner, your grandma and your 5 aunts to be as girly as possible alongside a man grown up by his straight parents, masculine father and otherwise normal conditions, pushing the second man towards masculinity. You'll notice a difference, that is purely the result of the growing environment.

Claiming something exists doesn't mean it does. Until you prove it, it's a figment of your imagination. You'll just have to deal with it.

By the way, regarding your earlier post about it not being a mental disorder any longer, this was posted below on the article http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2012/12/trans-people-still-disordered-according.html

It seems someone disagrees with you.

 

[DerangedHobo]

Well what about Yahtzee's Sarah Palin joke? I mean if the transgender one was "bad"...

Heh, reminds me of that Doug Stanhope bit "Why would you vote for her when even GOD HATES HER?"
Well, that and the retard baby joke and his cutting edge political satire.

 

[LysanderNemoinis]

Well what about Yahtzee's Sarah Palin joke? I mean if the transgender one was "bad"...

Yes, but you're forgetting that it's okay to say anything about someone whose conservative, as Yahtzee's videos have shown time and time again. But if you insult someone whose liberal or is part of a protected class, then you're a horrible human being. I can guarantee it that you'd never hear him say something like that about Hillary Clinton or some other liberal woman. And if someone did, he'd be one of the first people to jump in (like many people posting here) and call it bad form.

 

[Moth_Monk]

Well what about Yahtzee's Sarah Palin joke? I mean if the transgender one was "bad"...

Yes, but you're forgetting that it's okay to say anything about someone whose conservative, as Yahtzee's videos have shown time and time again. But if you insult someone whose liberal or is part of a protected class, then you're a horrible human being. I can guarantee it that you'd never hear him say something like that about Hillary Clinton or some other liberal woman. And if someone did, he'd be one of the first people to jump in (like many people posting here) and call it bad form.

I'll take this opportunity to say that Hillary Clinton is a psychotic monster...

 

[Kenmoo]

I guess I don't follow up enough around twitter and "the online community" but why does it seem the last year(s) transgenders and feminists are such edgy topics?

Maybe it's because I'm European? Some of the topics you Anglosphere countries bring up just don't exist here in the center of Europe.

Anyway Yahtzee. Nice of you to apologize. But humour is a way to shock people out of their comfort zone and I hope this doesn't lead to selfcensoring. I'm sure you have made many jokes you have regrets about, but you know what. Make it a once a year special in which you reflect on them and share those thoughts with us.

I just feel that this fast reaction of yours will just lead to more whining and more posts like "You apologized for x but not for y, think of the children!"

 

[Kenmoo]

Meh, people getting upset over jokes again, a bit dissapointed to see Yahtzee stepping down to apoligigise though. really, it just seems weird for asking forgiveness for cracking a joke, btu whatever, everything you're going to say is going to upset someone, so whatever.

The current social and political landscape in America is very hostile against transgenders because of the California "bathroom" bill and Chelsea (Bradley) Manning seeking hormone therapy in prison. There have been 3 murders of transwomen in just this last week, and obscene amount murder this past summer. Keep in mine we have a very very small population, so this many killings is proportionally as troubling the genocide of Jews in WWII. In the same fashion, it would have been seen as very poor taste to make Jew jokes during WWII, just as it is now in poor taste to make transgender jokes. The main difference is that because we're so small of a population we lack positive visibility in media and every bad stereotype leads to more very real discrimination.

I'm really glad Yahtzee apologized and explained his fault in the matter with integrity. Very few people in this world do that anymore.

Sorry to burst your bubble a bit. It's harsh what happens in California. But barbaric behaviour in your country doesn't reflect on the rest of the world and this is the internet. You need to put on some armor or else you'll find yourself shocked about many ideas out there... Sure Yahtzee will count more American fans than Belgian ones. But that doesn't self entitle anyone to whine about cynical humour.

 

[Synthetica]

I don't think deciding what circle in hell people go to would be good enough. I'd rather be in the role of Saint Peter, or whatever the guy that decides between heaven and hell for dead people's name is, judging if they'll go to hell or to heaven.
"You'll need to send certain percentages to hell, 'cause heaven will get overpopulated, but not too many, because the opposite thing will happen. "

 

[kingpocky]

A lot of self-styled "liberals" seem to have forgotten what liberalism actually entails. For example: freedom of speech. One should take notice of the fact that free speech has never prevented a group from gaining acceptance, and in this day and age of unprecedented freedom of speech, we also have an unprecedented level of acceptance for minorities. Censorship does nothing but generate antipathy towards the group that you claim to represent.

People keep using those words. I do not think they mean what they think they mean. Freedom of speech means that the government cannot prevent you from or prosecute you for saying things. It doesn't mean that people can't say they think something is offensive. If someone were trying to say that Yahtzee shouldn't be allowed to make transsexual jokes, they'd be nuts, but I don't think anyone has said that, have they?

Do people think that Yahtzee quivered in fear about the five or six people who might have actually stopped watching his show over a joke, and broke down into a forced apology? Give him a little credit, he's a big boy.

 

[Warachia]

I'm not sure how that comment about transsexuals could be offensive, because a person with the sex of male sucking the dick of another person whose sex is male is considered a homosexual because you only look at the sex of the people when deciding that, not their gender.

 

[mike1921]

I didn't see what was wrong with the joke in the first place, but whatever.

Look on the bright side, at least now we know that if we cry and stamp our feet enough we can get The Escapist to change or remove parts of their videos.

I wonder how one could get the people who cant live without being offended to whine and moan about the lazy editing on Bob's videos when he just goes in and out of his bostonian accent annoyingly.

OT: -100 respect for Yahtzee. I thought he was above caving to those who whine about a small word choice.

Nope. When you're dealing with very leftist people who think they're so very edgy, they're actually the most boxed-in and politically correct. So if you want to hear him bash America, southerners, whites, Christians, anybody with money, people in the military, businessmen, etc., then I'm sure you'll be happy to know he'll never cave on those jokes. But against anyone else...expect more video censorship in the future.

Here's the thing, jokes have two points, the point that the joke teller is trying to convey and the one the audience perceives. He intentionally jabs at Christians, White People, Etc. You're receiving the same point he's giving, and that's the only one you're getting.
The problem with this joke is that it misconstrues him as trans-phobic because in order to get the point across a man sucking off a transexual woman has to be gay. So you're also getting the point that transexuals aren't legitimate. Also: America, Southerners, Whites, and Christians aren't in the kind of "it's a coin flip if they're even seen as people" state that Transexuals are in.

It amazes me how afraid people are of a simple amount of nuance and instead they just see "THIS JOKE CAN BE SEEN AS OFFENSIVE, SO CAN THIS ONE, SAME THING"

 

[mike1921]

It amazes me how afraid people are of a simple amount of nuance and instead they just see "THIS JOKE CAN BE SEEN AS OFFENSIVE, SO CAN THIS ONE, SAME THING"

The thing is, he probably wouldn't get the ration of shit he is if he had left that episode how it was, and issued an apology and just watched what he said a little more closely in the future.

And yes, it does come down to things being the same, who is to say a transvestite being offended is worth any more than a southern american being offended? Just because the transvestite is a minority it suddenly means more and they get issued an apology and have episodes changed?

Hell, yahtzee makes fun of kids with down-syndrome and doesnt apologize.

Why? It's his video if he found his wording offensive why can't he change it?

It's not about people being offended it's about the point of the joke, and it's about someone misrepresenting their own opinion. The joke came across in a way that made it seem as if he doesn't accept transexuals, that was the subtext behind it. It was an unintentional second point. It's all about the intent. He intends to shit talk.

Transvestite= Wears clothes of the opposite gender, think transVESTite, or VESTIRSE if you know spanish. It means nothing about how you identify yourself.

Also: For transexuals yes there is reason to be more careful since they're just so far behind in terms of social progress that it's very likely that any given person is either hateful or highly uninformed of them. Fuck, gaming forums lean left, even here there's a decent amount of people who have a very strong anti-transexual sentiment.

 

[Mr F.]

Jesus people, clue in. Yahtzee didn't apologize for the joke, he apologized for the unintentional stereo-typing in his writing of the joke. He apologized because he was being a lazy writer, not a critical writer, which, if you people haven't clued in.. is what he does and takes pride in. It's not at all surprising that he apologized for this. What *is* surprising is the number of you yahoos who think he "caved" to any sort of pressure. It should be pretty apparent from what he reviews.. or more specifically.. what he avoids reviewing.. the caving to pressure isn't what he does.

It wasn't lazy wording, that's just an excuse for him to backpedal after someone complained. The joke made perfect sense and was completely in context.

"but I realise now that this was a poor choice of words, because some people who identify as female have cocks."

In other words, 'I'm apologizing because a dude with a dick calls himself a lady and got offended.' You seriously think he went back over the video after he put it out and decided this weak joke was actually better?

"I'm not gay, I only suck off pantomime dames."

Of course not. That joke is a perfect example of why we all suffer from unnecessary censorship and phony outrage from hypocrites.

Firstly, Phony outrage? Jesus christ. A large part of the LGBTQ community would like to talk to you. Secondly, the second joke actually makes far more sense. I just... Christ.

Do you believe that Trans people even exist? Lets get that out of the way. Because your statement indicates that you do not believe they exist, or you do not believe their thoughts and opinions should count, or that you believe that they should remain to be victimised. Right.

Go you. Social justice crusader you.

Artists can backpeddle. People can change. People can realise they have put their foot so far up their arse that they can taste it and then apologise. Doing so does not make you a weaker man, does not make you pathetic, does not mean you have caved.

It just means that if you are in the public eye, you HAVE to sometimes be careful. If Yahtzee could not be funny without attacking one of the most victimised groups in society, I would not find him funny.

Hypocrites? Please explain the hypocricy. At the same time, please explain why getting upset by a problematic joke, a joke that essentially reinforces the idea that "You are not a woman.", is not worthy of outrage if you are either a member of the LGBTQ community or an ally of the LGBTQ community.

And I say all the above as a sociology undergrad and a CIS gendered male. I would tear you to little pieces with sociological theory, but I genuinely believe you could not comprehend it. I do not mean that insultingly, unlike your attack on trans people, I mean that with my head held low and a heavy heart.

It amazes me how afraid people are of a simple amount of nuance and instead they just see "THIS JOKE CAN BE SEEN AS OFFENSIVE, SO CAN THIS ONE, SAME THING"

The thing is, he probably wouldn't get the ration of shit he is if he had left that episode how it was, and issued an apology and just watched what he said a little more closely in the future.

And yes, it does come down to things being the same, who is to say a transvestite being offended is worth any more than a southern american being offended? Just because the transvestite is a minority it suddenly means more and they get issued an apology and have episodes changed?

Hell, yahtzee makes fun of kids with down-syndrome and doesnt apologize.

I think it has something to do with the fact that Trans people are far more likely to get assaulted, raped, abused and the like. And that its a bit of a false equivalence that you are making there. And that the minority actually spoke up.

People forget that Free Speech means freedom to be torn apart as a result of free speech. Also freedom to change a joke to a joke that makes MORE SENSE whilst issuing an apology to the community that spoke out due to the attack.

I'm not sure how that comment about transsexuals could be offensive, because a person with the sex of male sucking the dick of another person whose sex is male is considered a homosexual because you only look at the sex of the people when deciding that, not their gender.

Transexual: a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex

Nothing to do with gender, thats the issue. Most people who do not think about the issue find it very hard to comprehend why things are offensive.

To put it simply, although you might struggle, a MTF trans women who is pre-op and has sex with a bloke, and only wishes to have sex with blokes and will continue to have sex with blokes following the op, if they choose to get it, is for all intents and purposes strait, if that is how they consider themselves. You have no right to put your own values on others, the joke was poor because it attacked this and the community spoke out because they are VERY, VERY used to being attacked for whatever reasons, ignorance or genuine hatred included.

So yeah. I chose a few of you at random to respond to. I am going to regret doing so.

Meh, people getting upset over jokes again, a bit dissapointed to see Yahtzee stepping down to apoligigise though. really, it just seems weird for asking forgiveness for cracking a joke, btu whatever, everything you're going to say is going to upset someone, so whatever.

The current social and political landscape in America is very hostile against transgenders because of the California "bathroom" bill and Chelsea (Bradley) Manning seeking hormone therapy in prison. There have been 3 murders of transwomen in just this last week, and obscene amount murder this past summer. Keep in mine we have a very very small population, so this many killings is proportionally as troubling the genocide of Jews in WWII. In the same fashion, it would have been seen as very poor taste to make Jew jokes during WWII, just as it is now in poor taste to make transgender jokes. The main difference is that because we're so small of a population we lack positive visibility in media and every bad stereotype leads to more very real discrimination.

I'm really glad Yahtzee apologized and explained his fault in the matter with integrity. Very few people in this world do that anymore.

Wow. Get over yourself. I don't feel like picking apart all of your lunacy but I'll squash the "trannies disproportionally murdered" thing right now.

310 million US citizens.
Based on your numbers, .3 are trannies. 930,000
13k murders in 2010
14 trannies murdered in 2010

That's way below average. You'd be expecting 40 or 50 murders. Now go check the stats of how likely you are to get murdered if you're black. That's what disproportional looks like.

Did you HAVE to use the term trannies?

Yes, yes you did. For fucks sake.

For the record, using that term in that context is the equivalent of referring to all women as bitches in domestic violence statistics. You probably know that. You probably know that the term you are using is loaded and insulting. But you probably don't care.

Right, I really do need to get out of this thread. I have to smoke, pack and beat my head against a brick wall. I would put in a tldr but since all of my responses are tailored to you as individuals, although I might have repeated myself a little bit (Sorry for incredibly sloppy editting). I look forward to the "Spirited debate" that I have now entered into and I will try and avoid using strawmen arguments.

If you guys avoid using loaded offensive terms for funsies and misunderstanding the meaning of Free Speech/Censorship.

 

[Warachia]

I'm not sure how that comment about transsexuals could be offensive, because a person with the sex of male sucking the dick of another person whose sex is male is considered a homosexual because you only look at the sex of the people when deciding that, not their gender.

Transexual: a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex

Nothing to do with gender, thats the issue. Most people who do not think about the issue find it very hard to comprehend why things are offensive.

Sorry, but you've got this entirely backwards, gender is what you identify as, sex is defined by you reproductive organs.
Sources:
Sex definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sex
Gender definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gender?s=t (see relevant questions for far better claraification)
And the difference: http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html and http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

Hope I've cleared that up.

 

[DerangedHobo]

Jesus people, clue in. Yahtzee didn't apologize for the joke, he apologized for the unintentional stereo-typing in his writing of the joke. He apologized because he was being a lazy writer, not a critical writer, which, if you people haven't clued in.. is what he does and takes pride in. It's not at all surprising that he apologized for this. What *is* surprising is the number of you yahoos who think he "caved" to any sort of pressure. It should be pretty apparent from what he reviews.. or more specifically.. what he avoids reviewing.. the caving to pressure isn't what he does.

It wasn't lazy wording, that's just an excuse for him to backpedal after someone complained. The joke made perfect sense and was completely in context.

"but I realise now that this was a poor choice of words, because some people who identify as female have cocks."

In other words, 'I'm apologizing because a dude with a dick calls himself a lady and got offended.' You seriously think he went back over the video after he put it out and decided this weak joke was actually better?

"I'm not gay, I only suck off pantomime dames."

Of course not. That joke is a perfect example of why we all suffer from unnecessary censorship and phony outrage from hypocrites.

Firstly, Phony outrage? Jesus christ. A large part of the LGBTQ community would like to talk to you. Secondly, the second joke actually makes far more sense. I just... Christ.

Do you believe that Trans people even exist? Lets get that out of the way. Because your statement indicates that you do not believe they exist, or you do not believe their thoughts and opinions should count, or that you believe that they should remain to be victimised. Right.

Go you. Social justice crusader you.

Artists can backpeddle. People can change. People can realise they have put their foot so far up their arse that they can taste it and then apologise. Doing so does not make you a weaker man, does not make you pathetic, does not mean you have caved.

It just means that if you are in the public eye, you HAVE to sometimes be careful. If Yahtzee could not be funny without attacking one of the most victimised groups in society, I would not find him funny.

Hypocrites? Please explain the hypocricy. At the same time, please explain why getting upset by a problematic joke, a joke that essentially reinforces the idea that "You are not a woman.", is not worthy of outrage if you are either a member of the LGBTQ community or an ally of the LGBTQ community.

And I say all the above as a sociology undergrad and a CIS gendered male. I would tear you to little pieces with sociological theory, but I genuinely believe you could not comprehend it. I do not mean that insultingly, unlike your attack on trans people, I mean that with my head held low and a heavy heart.

It amazes me how afraid people are of a simple amount of nuance and instead they just see "THIS JOKE CAN BE SEEN AS OFFENSIVE, SO CAN THIS ONE, SAME THING"

The thing is, he probably wouldn't get the ration of shit he is if he had left that episode how it was, and issued an apology and just watched what he said a little more closely in the future.

And yes, it does come down to things being the same, who is to say a transvestite being offended is worth any more than a southern american being offended? Just because the transvestite is a minority it suddenly means more and they get issued an apology and have episodes changed?

Hell, yahtzee makes fun of kids with down-syndrome and doesnt apologize.

I think it has something to do with the fact that Trans people are far more likely to get assaulted, raped, abused and the like. And that its a bit of a false equivalence that you are making there. And that the minority actually spoke up.

People forget that Free Speech means freedom to be torn apart as a result of free speech. Also freedom to change a joke to a joke that makes MORE SENSE whilst issuing an apology to the community that spoke out due to the attack.

I'm not sure how that comment about transsexuals could be offensive, because a person with the sex of male sucking the dick of another person whose sex is male is considered a homosexual because you only look at the sex of the people when deciding that, not their gender.

Transexual: a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex

Nothing to do with gender, thats the issue. Most people who do not think about the issue find it very hard to comprehend why things are offensive.

To put it simply, although you might struggle, a MTF trans women who is pre-op and has sex with a bloke, and only wishes to have sex with blokes and will continue to have sex with blokes following the op, if they choose to get it, is for all intents and purposes strait, if that is how they consider themselves. You have no right to put your own values on others, the joke was poor because it attacked this and the community spoke out because they are VERY, VERY used to being attacked for whatever reasons, ignorance or genuine hatred included.

So yeah. I chose a few of you at random to respond to. I am going to regret doing so.

Meh, people getting upset over jokes again, a bit dissapointed to see Yahtzee stepping down to apoligigise though. really, it just seems weird for asking forgiveness for cracking a joke, btu whatever, everything you're going to say is going to upset someone, so whatever.

The current social and political landscape in America is very hostile against transgenders because of the California "bathroom" bill and Chelsea (Bradley) Manning seeking hormone therapy in prison. There have been 3 murders of transwomen in just this last week, and obscene amount murder this past summer. Keep in mine we have a very very small population, so this many killings is proportionally as troubling the genocide of Jews in WWII. In the same fashion, it would have been seen as very poor taste to make Jew jokes during WWII, just as it is now in poor taste to make transgender jokes. The main difference is that because we're so small of a population we lack positive visibility in media and every bad stereotype leads to more very real discrimination.

I'm really glad Yahtzee apologized and explained his fault in the matter with integrity. Very few people in this world do that anymore.

Wow. Get over yourself. I don't feel like picking apart all of your lunacy but I'll squash the "trannies disproportionally murdered" thing right now.

310 million US citizens.
Based on your numbers, .3 are trannies. 930,000
13k murders in 2010
14 trannies murdered in 2010

That's way below average. You'd be expecting 40 or 50 murders. Now go check the stats of how likely you are to get murdered if you're black. That's what disproportional looks like.

Did you HAVE to use the term trannies?

Yes, yes you did. For fucks sake.

For the record, using that term in that context is the equivalent of referring to all women as bitches in domestic violence statistics. You probably know that. You probably know that the term you are using is loaded and insulting. But you probably don't care.

Right, I really do need to get out of this thread. I have to smoke, pack and beat my head against a brick wall. I would put in a tldr but since all of my responses are tailored to you as individuals, although I might have repeated myself a little bit (Sorry for incredibly sloppy editting). I look forward to the "Spirited debate" that I have now entered into and I will try and avoid using strawmen arguments.

If you guys avoid using loaded offensive terms for funsies and misunderstanding the meaning of Free Speech/Censorship.

Wow, that was just like, euphoric bro, I tip my fedora to you.
Seriously, this is why the LGBTQSPA community is failing, because they don't have the balls, the ovaries to fight, and I do use that term literally. You want to know why blacks got their rights? They didn't do it by getting offended at a joke (and let me remind you, a joke is meant for humor, there can be malice behind it but there was none in Yahtzee's video) and then collectively rages on their forums about how they're oppressed and victimized, the did it by standing up, whether it be violent or non violent protests, they got the ever loving shite beaten out of them. They did not cower over words and might I add that Freedom of Speech is the right to voice your opinion and say what you want however bat shit crazy or insensitive that may be, it doesn't mean you won't get the crap beaten out of you, it doesn't protect you it just means that the police will not shove a baton up your ass. We don't have that in my country but in the few places that do I would like to keep it that way.

That tirade out of the way, Yahtzee made a joke, it was a joke, as opposed to all the other horrific references he's said people decide to get irate at this? Why? It's just that mentality of 'oh I'll laugh at everyone else but if someone insults me or my group I get offended and get on my soapbox'. It's hypocrisy.

And women who go through all the hormone treatment and operations are still women, they're just women on roids and with mutilated genitals, same goes for men, we do not yet have the technology to make a man into 100% certifiable woman and vice versa, post op cannot reproduce and while I'm on the subject men and women have every right to turn away post ops or pre ops without being discriminated against or called monsters, I've seen that mentality over the internet and it's a laughable premise, you are still having sex with the same sex, the same gender, whatever they may identify with mentality they're still the gender they were born into. I can't fuck a monkey and say IT'S NOT BESTIALITY IT IDENTIFIES AS HUMAN! It's the same mentality.

 

[Miroluck]

So yeah. I chose a few of you at random to respond to. I am going to regret doing so.

Meh, people getting upset over jokes again, a bit dissapointed to see Yahtzee stepping down to apoligigise though. really, it just seems weird for asking forgiveness for cracking a joke, btu whatever, everything you're going to say is going to upset someone, so whatever.

snip

There have been 3 murders of transwomen in just this last week, and obscene amount murder this past summer. Keep in mine we have a very very small population, so this many killings is proportionally as troubling the genocide of Jews in WWII. In the same fashion, it would have been seen as very poor taste to make Jew jokes during WWII, just as it is now in poor taste to make transgender jokes.

snip

snip

snip

Right, I really do need to get out of this thread. I have to smoke, pack and beat my head against a brick wall. I would put in a tldr but since all of my responses are tailored to you as individuals, although I might have repeated myself a little bit (Sorry for incredibly sloppy editting). I look forward to the "Spirited debate" that I have now entered into and I will try and avoid using strawmen arguments.

If you guys avoid using loaded offensive terms for funsies and misunderstanding the meaning of Free Speech/Censorship.

I will retype what Plunkies wrote to you in neutral fashion (I also fixed some numbers):

US contains approximately 310 million citizens.
Based on your numbers

It's actually by Turbo_ski

0.3% of American adults in 2011 were estimated to transgender (or at least openly so). Population of the whole US in 2011 was 311.6 million.

and it's 311.6 million.

0.3 are transgender which is 930,000

actually 934,800

13k (13,000) murders in 2010
14 (fourteen) transgender people murdered in 2010

That's way below average. You'd be expecting 40 or 50 murders. Now go check the stats of how likely you are to get murdered if you're black. That's what disproportional looks like.

If those 2010 murder numbers are correct, here's what we have:

Spoiler

13,000 / 311,600,000 * 100 = 0.00417%
14 / 934,800 * 100 = 0.0015%

0.00417% of US citizens were murdered that year;
0.0015% of transgender US citizens were murdered that year.

If your hypothesis(which I assume states that transgendered people are more likely to be murdered than cis) were true, that second percentage would have been at least 4 times higher.

WIth numbers as they are, it seems like cis US citizens are almost twice as likely to get killed than transgender ones.

 

[DrummerM]

I still find it kind of interesting that there was an uproar about a transsexual joke but a joke about Auschwitz was fine by comparison. I guess we've officially passed the "too soon" phase for Nazi war crimes.

 

[Mr F.]

I'm not sure how that comment about transsexuals could be offensive, because a person with the sex of male sucking the dick of another person whose sex is male is considered a homosexual because you only look at the sex of the people when deciding that, not their gender.

Transexual: a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex

Nothing to do with gender, thats the issue. Most people who do not think about the issue find it very hard to comprehend why things are offensive.

Sorry, but you've got this entirely backwards, gender is what you identify as, sex is defined by you reproductive organs.
Sources:
Sex definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sex
Gender definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gender?s=t (see relevant questions for far better claraification)
And the difference: http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html and http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

Hope I've cleared that up.

Sorry, going purely from scientific definitions is utterly bullshit. I am a sociologist, firstly, who believes that gender and sexual identity are fluid, because they are. So... Fuck that.

I will go with the definition of Gender as outlined by Judith Butler, one of the key theorists required by my course, go from a defintion of Transexual that my Trans friends are most comfortable with and run with it from there. "Science" proved blacks were inferior to whites, dumber, more servile and the like. "Science" still calls being Trans a mental illness.

Consider this, If you are transexual when post op, what the fuck were you whilst pre op or whilst on Hormone treatment? Nothing?

This is just another part of othering a group of people that you do not understand. That is a universal "You", directed at pretty much everyone in this thread. Its fine to not understand.

Not all of you are trying to becoming academics within the field, nor do all of you have a brother who is queer and an expert within the field.

*SNIP*
And women who go through all the hormone treatment and operations are still women, they're just women on roids and with mutilated genitals, same goes for men, we do not yet have the technology to make a man into 100% certifiable woman and vice versa, post op cannot reproduce

Same logic means people who are unable to reproduce are no longer people. So fuck that. Also, what gave you the right to dictate what someone is or is not? Oh! Science! The same science that dicated that black people were inferior! But thats ok, we are so enlightened right now, I mean, like 40 years ago we made it so gay guys could fuck without getting arrested! But whatever. We are so enlightened now. That is why if someone is a woman, looks like a woman and has the brain of a woman, which honestly is ALL THAT FUCKING MATTERS (Are you saying that someone who has been horrifically scarred is no longer a woman or a man? Gender and sex are identities. And if you are talking on a PURELY biological sense, then you are being an idiot. Sorry. Cause it doesn't really matter. I could get into that, maybe I will.

and while I'm on the subject men and women have every right to turn away post ops or pre ops without being discriminated against or called monsters, I've seen that mentality over the internet and it's a laughable premise, you are still having sex with the same sex, the same gender, whatever they may identify with mentality they're still the gender they were born into.

Gender is fluid. So no, you are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_performativity

I can't fuck a monkey and say IT'S NOT BESTIALITY IT IDENTIFIES AS HUMAN! It's the same mentality.

NO.
ITS.
FUCKING.
NOT.

Seriously.

As far as we know, monkeys haven't got complicated sexual identities. They might do. But the real issue there is a monkey cannot consent to sex. Because a monkey is not human. Your analogy dictates that you believe that a trans man that was born a woman is simply a woman. Also, that people who are born XXY are not really people, no matter what they think.

Nothing they think can change that.
They are less than human, because they have been mutiliated.
They cannot breed, thats all that matters.
Honestly, that breeding argument means gay men are not men and men that get fucking VASECTOMIES are no longer men. I guess that is not what you meant (Its what you said though).

post op cannot reproduce

Just think about that. Why does that matter. Why does ability to reproduce dictate if you are male or female. That indicates that a car crash can change your gender and sex. Choosing to get a vasectomy can change your gender or sex. My cat is no longer male. You are falsely equating ability to reproduce with either sex or gender. And its damaging to do so.

I need to leave now guys.

Its been fun, and by fun I mean scary. I really should give up posting around here on real issues. But I actually have a flight to catch and need to pack up this laptop. So yeah. Good day to you all.

On a side note, could you two please go off and read some sociological theory? I could post you a reading list when I land. I mean, it could get me in trouble, but I could even send you a few PDF documents containing some of last years set readings. It might open your eyes. Just saying. Education is AWESOME.

 

[Speksi]

I'm replying this mostly because I'm bored, waiting for a meeting to start, but partially because I find this whole thing intriguing.

Firstly, Phony outrage? Jesus christ. A large part of the LGBTQ community would like to talk to you.

What the hell is a "LGBTQ" community? Personally, I don't know if it's phony outrage, but it's ridiculous nonetheless. Stop being insulted by words said by people who don't agree with you, it's sad.

Do you believe that Trans people even exist? Lets get that out of the way. Because your statement indicates that you do not believe they exist, or you do not believe their thoughts and opinions should count, or that you believe that they should remain to be victimised. Right.

If they do exist, someone should have some proof of it. I've seen none so far, despite asking for it several times. Until you can prove "transgender" is anything more than a figment of your imagination, no it does not exist. Burden of proof is on you and "LGBTQ" community. If they are human, their thoughts and opinions should count, but in my opinion this whole transgender-fad is a sign of mental unstability, so maybe go through an evaluation first.

Calling yourself victimized is just the kind of drama queen attitude that will get you victimized. It's fine to speak up if you feel offended, but getting so crossed with a freakin' JOKE from a person who is known for making offensive jokes is pathetic. Almost as pathetic as Yahtzee actually caving in and changing a video for this ridiculous issue.

Artists can backpeddle. People can change. People can realise they have put their foot so far up their arse that they can taste it and then apologise.

Yeah they can, but they shouldn't have to because a group of drama queens get offended. Be offended, who cares, I bet many Christians also get offended by George Carlin, should he also censor himself and apologize for everything he's ever said?

It just means that if you are in the public eye, you HAVE to sometimes be careful. If Yahtzee could not be funny without attacking one of the most victimised groups in society, I would not find him funny.

You know what Yahtzee once said? A truly tolerant society is one where everyone can make fun of everyone else without anyone getting offended. And he's right. Will you change your post if I tell you I'm victimized and a self-diagnosed easily-hurt-by-words-phobic, and everything you just said offends me greatly? If not, double standard!

Hypocrites? Please explain the hypocricy. At the same time, please explain why getting upset by a problematic joke, a joke that essentially reinforces the idea that "You are not a woman.", is not worthy of outrage if you are either a member of the LGBTQ community or an ally of the LGBTQ community.

Man = XY chromosomes, male genitalia
Woman = XX chromosomes, female genitalia

It's not so complicated, really. Putting on a dress doesn't make you a woman, much like putting on a fur suit doesn't make you a dog.

If a joke is worthy of an outrage, then we're right back at the whole drama queen -thing. People don't share your opinions, or have to hold back on saying them. I think being transgender is a mental disorder, and I'm most certainly not going to apologize for that. At least not before you show me SCIENTIFIC PROOF that transgender people exist.

And I say all the above as a sociology undergrad and a CIS gendered male. I would tear you to little pieces with sociological theory, but I genuinely believe you could not comprehend it. I do not mean that insultingly, unlike your attack on trans people, I mean that with my head held low and a heavy heart.

What does sociology have to do with a biological argument? Also, using a term like "CIS gendered male" makes you look like a wannabe ultra-liberal hipster. I'd avoid it if I were you.

The correct term for "CIS gendered" is "normal male". I just decided it's an offensive term, so stop using it.