Can Duke Nukem Become a Feminist Hero?

[mattttherman3]

I am curios as to how many copies of the game need to be sold in order to make a profit.

 

[Merkavar]

on the topic of feminism i went to

also, please, everyone: basic feminism - http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

and from their i found this article about beiber touching someones afro. like just gently touching the sides of it and saying he likes her hair. In the article the language used i think is just wrong. they used words like ''attacks'', to me thats just wrong cause when someone actually gets attacked the word has lost its meaning. Apparently beiber is a sexist arsehole cuase he gently pat someones afro. to me this is the sort of feminism that gives it a bad name. making mountain out of mole hills instead of focusing on serious issues.

 

[elvor0]

I honestly cannot hear the word feminist without thinking of Frank Zappas Briefcase Boogie from Thing Fish

OT: That would be hilarious if they did use Duke, but I think we'll see FOX and the Zealous Feminists hacking him to shreds for "corrupting the youth" as per usual.

 

[Mcface]

I think femminazi scape goat to further their own stupid agenda is probably a more realistic title.

 

[Andronicus]

I have just two words for you:
Free. Publicity.

That is all.

 

[Dogstile]

I still can't take feminists seriously. Always being offended it seems.

If duke can be used to further their cause, I will eat my own fist

 

[siahsargus]

Duke will do double good. One by killing the bad guys, and 2 by spreading awareness by being himself?

I think Duke Nukem deserves more of my respect now. Needs more bubblegum!

As long as he's being used towards the cause of feminine equality and not feminine superiority if they sit there and say "This is why women should be on top" then I'm kinda against that. The genders should be equal, not one superior to the other

I agree. I see both genders as equal, and even certain physical differences can be matched I think. :3

There are women who can lift staggering amounts of weight (A lot of women who work as firefighters would likely qualify, for one example) and any sort of training can let a woman kick just as much ass as a man in a fight; not to mention averages are just averages and it's more than possible for a man to be weaker than the average woman or for a woman to be stronger than the average man; so basically, I agree.

Not to mention a lot of social/cultural perceptions about men and women alike are just plain wrong.

Men and Women for most situations should be treated the same.

Of course, most cultural perceptions will be wrong, especially regarding gender and sexuality. However, even though women can certainly lift absurd ammounts of weight if properly trained and conditioned, men can lift slightly more when properly trained and conditioned. Just look at the olympics. The bright side to all of this is that a trained female marksam is statisticly better than a trained male marksman. Take that as you will.

 

[BeanDelphiki]

I hate feminists, always trying to "right wrongs" when they honestly have no real idea what the fuck their doing.

Say what? What, exactly, do you think "feminists" are "doing," in the monolithic way you imply here, that you hate?

Start with the fact that "feminism" has [a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies"]numerous different branches[/a], many of which are in direct conflict with each other's ideologies, and go from there.

You don't have a clue what you're saying, basically.

 

[BeanDelphiki]

on the topic of feminism i went to

also, please, everyone: basic feminism - http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

and from their i found this article about beiber touching someones afro. like just gently touching the sides of it and saying he likes her hair. In the article the language used i think is just wrong. they used words like ''attacks'', to me thats just wrong cause when someone actually gets attacked the word has lost its meaning. Apparently beiber is a sexist arsehole cuase he gently pat someones afro. to me this is the sort of feminism that gives it a bad name. making mountain out of mole hills instead of focusing on serious issues.

Um, it is a serious issue. How many people would you just walk up to and touch their hair? Or any part of their body without asking? Especially when you'd just met them?

That just doesn't happen that often to white people like Bieber (I'm white, and someone of another race "exploring" my hair without permission has happened to me ONCE), but it happens frequently to a lot of black women. Why? Why do so many [mainly white] people think it's okay to touch a black woman's hair like she's a goat in a petting zoo?

Think about it; Bieber was way out of line. That sense of entitlement to women's bodies (in particular the bodies of women of color) IS a "serious" feminist issue, as well as an anti-racism issue.

 

[Merkavar]

snip

she had a crazy big afro and he just slightly touched the side. he didnt just walk up to a stranger and do it. they both knew each other and were being interviewed together. i just dont see the issue. he touched her hair that was like 30 cm away from her head.

but anyway what i was getting at was the use of the word attack in this situation only serves to dull the meaning of the word when used in an actual attack.

and also making such a big deal out of a child touching someones hair just seems to me a waste of time and resources that could be better spent dealing with real issues like the wage differences between men and women or you know actual attacks on women.

 

[RelexCryo]

So...they perceive heterosexual hedonism as mysogyny? If Duke was gay and the twins were men, would that be an act of discrimination against men?

 

[BeanDelphiki]

snip

she had a crazy big afro and he just slightly touched the side. he didnt just walk up to a stranger and do it. they both knew each other and were being interviewed together. i just dont see the issue. he touched her hair that was like 30 cm away from her head.

but anyway what i was getting at was the use of the word attack in this situation only serves to dull the meaning of the word when used in an actual attack.

and also making such a big deal out of a child touching someones hair just seems to me a waste of time and resources that could be better spent dealing with real issues like the wage differences between men and women or you know actual attacks on women.

I might agree that it's strong language to call it an "attack," but the fact that he "just slightly touched the side" (WTF?) of someone's hair - who he had just met, and without asking permission - in NO WAY excuses this b.s. (And, it was 30 cm away from her head? So what, is it not still a part of her body?! Are my hands not part of MY body? I mean, they're pretty far from my torso!)

Note that this isn't just about Bieber's individual behaviour, it's about a pattern of behaviour - white people feeling entitled to touch black people's hair (even more so if it's a white male and a black female). If you think the criticism falling on Bieber is "unfair," you're missing the point - it's less about Bieber and more about the fact that he's made himself a public example of this kind of fucked-up behaviour that needs to be called out.

BTW, a sense of entitlement to women's bodies is an enormous part of why women get "actually" attacked.

 

[BabyRaptor]

I don't play video games looking for people to worship as a hero. Most non-gamers seem to REALLY miss this fact, but...Video games aren't real life.

Anyone who tries to treat them that way is a few crayons short of a box.

 

[Iron Lightning]

I'm going to quote myself here:
"Not only does he watch Oprah, he's a personal friend of hers in the Duke Universe.
He has to be more than just what we see in-game for her to regard him in that manner.

The thing about Duke is that, yes, he is this rugged, crude man who indulges in women's sexuality, but unless I missed something, he's not bad about it. Sure, he's going to accept a horny young girl throwing herself on him, but when these same people are in danger, he rushes to their rescue, facing an empire of terrifying aliens single-handedly.
Is there any instance of Duke actually abusing a woman?
(Well, yes, in earlier versions of Duke Nukem, he may play Kevorkian to a few terribly mutated women, but when they're begging for a mercy-kill, I bet a lot of people would oblige)

What I see is that he's an intelligent, but coarse horndog with a fierce sense of chivalry."

If people can use him to promote feminism, (Real feminism, of course. Not this female-supremacist nonsense who claim to be femenists) then great!

Still, though, I don't see him as necessarily so mysogenistic. I mean, in his universe, he's extremely attractive. If an extremely desirable man went and saved my life and I was a horny, scantily-clad young woman, I'd prolly throw myself at him, too.

(I am a young woman, mind you. But asexual and quite modestly dressed.)

You know, usually I disagree with you, but in this case you're spot-on.

One interesting fact, in the more PC N64 version of Duke Nukem 3D you could actually save babes instead of just ignoring or euthanizing them. Also, in the 2nd level of the PC version of Duke Nukem 3D you come across some strippers who you can either tip to get a flash (except for the ones who always had their back to you, as per the oddities of 2D sprites in a 3D environment) or kill them which spawns a group of enemies that immediately start shooting at you. Any game that punishes you for killing women is certainly not misogynistic.

Although that is ignoring what feminists perceive to be the issue with Duke Nukem Forever: that Duke is saving these women not because they're people but because they're women. This logic is flawed as Duke is not only saving women. True, only women are being kidnapped by the aliens but that doesn't mean that Duke isn't (albeit indirectly) saving everyone else who's under alien threat.

I've never once heard Duke saying anything the slightest bit derogatory about women. Trust me, I would've remembered if Duke ever said "Get back to the kitchen, *****" or "Stop dancing and start making babies." Heck, the first couple Duke Nukem games didn't even have anything to do with women, back then Duke was just saving the world from some weird red dude who was building robots (he even spent the first game wearing magenta, for some reason.)

Maybe I'm missing the point though, maybe these feminists are using the same argument against Duke that they have against pornography: that women having sex somehow objectifies them. This argument is just stupid. Weren't these the same people that continue to rally against the negative connotations of words referring to promiscuous women?

 

[BeanDelphiki]

Maybe I'm missing the point though, maybe these feminists are using the same argument against Duke that they have against pornography: that women having sex somehow objectifies them. This argument is just stupid. Weren't these the same people that continue to rally against the negative connotations of words referring to promiscuous women?

That's...not the argument, though. The argument of the feminist anti-porn movement has not so much to do with sex itself - I don't think I've ever heard an anti-porn feminist say that "sex objectifies women" - but that paying for and consuming images of women having sex objectifies women. That selling images of this otherwise-private act is something that turns women into sexual objects for the pleasure of men.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that argument, as I would consider myself "pro-porn" in a general sense, and I think the entire concept of "sexual objectification" has more holes in it than swiss cheese. (I think most of what some people sloppily sum up as "objectification" would be better discussed in terms of men's sense of entitlement to women's bodies and sexual access. I also think that not all porn has the same issues across the board.) I'm just saying you don't seem to grasp the argument there.

Actually, there's a BETTER argument for Duke Nukem "objectifying" women than one that could possibly be applied to the wide variety of porn out there... Because Duke games (at least more recent ones) really do treat women as objects of sexual entertainment and nothing more.

I'm really not buying your argument that the Duke's attitude toward women isn't derogatory. Hell, watch the trailer:

V.O.: ...But [the aliens] made one mistake: they shouldn't have gone after our women.
Duke: Dammit! Why do they always take the HOT ones?

1. "Our" women? Who's speaking? What do they mean by "our"? That's probably the most troublesome line of the trailer.
2. That's his reason for defending the planet?
3. What if they weren't hot? He wouldn't care? Sure seems to imply he doesn't care about women as people.

I have a real soft spot in my heart for Duke Nukem. I fucking LOVED those games growing up. (And I tipped the strippers a lot as a kid, too...) But man, people actually defending the over-the-top misogyny as if it's not there blows my mind.


Edited to add: Notice the image that appears at 2:12 in the trailer? I was vaguely amused by the "pixelated strippers as a way-too-obvious selling point of the game" up until then, but that was so brief - and sandwiched between baddies violently exploding, too? - that it's like someone was going for "subliminally sexualizing violence" and just didn't make it fast enough. I hope I'm not the only one who was honestly disturbed by that.

 

[Logic 0]

I never thought I would see duke nukem and helping feminism in the same sentience.

 

[Morganan]

Lets call this what it is, an attempt to garner some free media from the mainstream press. Who here thinks a feminist group raising the profile of this title would do anything but good things for it's sales?

 

[Sh0ckFyre]

So Duke can kill everything with an X-chromosome, but having sex with girls makes him controversial?

 

[Iron Lightning]

Maybe I'm missing the point though, maybe these feminists are using the same argument against Duke that they have against pornography: that women having sex somehow objectifies them. This argument is just stupid. Weren't these the same people that continue to rally against the negative connotations of words referring to promiscuous women?

That's...not the argument, though. The argument of the feminist anti-porn movement has not so much to do with sex itself - I don't think I've ever heard an anti-porn feminist say that "sex objectifies women" - but that paying for and consuming images of women having sex objectifies women. That selling images of this otherwise-private act is something that turns women into sexual objects for the pleasure of men.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that argument, as I would consider myself "pro-porn" in a general sense, and I think the entire concept of "sexual objectification" has more holes in it than swiss cheese. (I think most of what some people sloppily sum up as "objectification" would be better discussed in terms of men's sense of entitlement to women's bodies and sexual access. I also think that not all porn has the same issues across the board.) I'm just saying you don't seem to grasp the argument there.

No no, I grasp the argument completely, I'm sorry for oversimplifying it.

Actually, there's a BETTER argument for Duke Nukem "objectifying" women than one that could possibly be applied to the wide variety of porn out there... Because Duke games (at least more recent ones) really do treat women as objects of sexual entertainment and nothing more.

I'm really not buying your argument that the Duke's attitude toward women isn't derogatory. Hell, watch the trailer:

V.O.: ...But [the aliens] made one mistake: they shouldn't have gone after our women.
Duke: Dammit! Why do they always take the HOT ones?

1. "Our" women? Who's speaking? What do they mean by "our"? That's probably the most troublesome line of the trailer.
2. That's his reason for defending the planet?
3. What if they weren't hot? He wouldn't care? Sure seems to imply he doesn't care about women as people.

1. I believe that phrase was intended to work in the same way as "our people" (i.e. Earth's women.) The real issue with that line is implying that the only motivation Duke has is the aliens taking our women.
2. It seems like it, Duke's quite the hedonistic bastard.
3. I'm unsure about that, you may be reading a bit much into that line. The implication is still there, but it seems more like a reflection of Duke's hedonism than any misogyny. He could also just be pointing out one of the game's cliches for comedic effect, as Duke now seems pretty much aware that he's a videogame character.

I have a real soft spot in my heart for Duke Nukem. I fucking LOVED those games growing up. (And I tipped the strippers a lot as a kid, too...) But man, people actually defending the over-the-top misogyny as if it's not there blows my mind.

The argument I made in my above post is that misogynist is the wrong word for Duke. I don't really see any hatred of women in Duke, but more of the raw impersonal lust for women expected of his ultra-hedonistic personality. As for your point about Duke treating women as objects I am... a bit unsure about it. If he simply only cared about women as objects for sexual gratification then there wouldn't really be any reason for him to mount a rescue operation for whatever relatively small group of women that the aliens kidnapped. If someone stole my TV, yeah I'd be pissed, but I wouldn't fight a few alien races to get it back when I could just go and buy a new TV. Unless we're to assume that the aliens have somehow captured all of Earth's women, which would be patently ridiculous.

Edited to add: Notice the image that appears at 2:12 in the trailer? I was vaguely amused by the "pixelated strippers as a way-too-obvious selling point of the game" up until then, but that was so brief - and sandwiched between baddies violently exploding, too? - that it's like someone was going for "subliminally sexualizing violence" and just didn't make it fast enough. I hope I'm not the only one who was honestly disturbed by that.

That, however, is most troubling. I didn't catch that one the first time around, thanks for pointing it out to me. Well, if any game's going to do the whole violence and sex thingy it's going to be the one with both strippers and shooting things in the face.