Can Duke Nukem Become a Feminist Hero?

[Blind Sight]

I hate feminists, always trying to "right wrongs" when they honestly have no real idea what the fuck their doing.

I think you have no idea what they're doing.

I mean, okay, you have the extreme feminists who are sexist the other way around, but seriously, normal feminists just want equal rights and chances for women. I don't know about you, but I support that.

He could also be referring feminists who focus far too much on very little things. For example, I live with a slightly crazy feminist, and she goes on and on about how it's wrong for hospitals to put girl babies in pink blankets and boy babies in blue blankets. I personally don't see the great ill that this is inflicting on society. I think they should focus on more important things like studying extreme Muslim culture that calls for honour killings of disgraced women, but apparently the blanket thing is a big deal to a lot of women's studies majors.

 

[BeanDelphiki]

So Duke can kill everything with an X-chromosome, but having sex with girls makes him controversial?

Technically, everything has an X-chromosome.

I'm pretty sure the killing thing actually doesn't help, either.

 

[Terminal Blue]

He could also be referring feminists who focus far too much on very little things. For example, I live with a slightly crazy feminist, and she goes on and on about how it's wrong for hospitals to put girl babies in pink blankets and boy babies in blue blankets. I personally don't see the great ill that this is inflicting on society.

Of course you wouldn't. After all, sexual difference isn't a problem or anything, it's not like it leads to pronounced social inequality.

Feminists often focus on small things because they are symptomatic of big things. The blankets, for example, are interesting because they highlight the issue of binary sexual difference, its position in childrearing and the hundreds of years of cultural history which produce those subjects. 'Pink' has associations, 'blue' has associations and those colours will mark the way those children grow up for the rest of their lives, often to their detriment.

It is by critiquing 'common sense' practices which establish gender relations that early feminists achieved the gender reforms we take for granted today.

I think they should focus on more important things like studying extreme Muslim culture that calls for honour killings of disgraced women, but apparently the blanket thing is a big deal to a lot of women's studies majors.

Feminists do focus on those things. Perhaps not feminists you've heard of. White middle class 'mainstream' feminists have generally became quite rightly cautious about telling brown women on the other side of the world how to correctly deal with their problems.

Seriously though, go to a university or college with a womens/gender studies department and actually visit the library. You'll find hundreds and hundreds of books on gendered violence. I should know, I study in one.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Also, a piece of general advice I'd offer to anyone on this threat.

If you've never read any feminist work in your life, if you don't understand the arguments they make and yet you somehow feel obliged to comment saying that feminists are always 'getting stuff wrong' or 'hating men' or 'practising reverse sexism', maybe consider exercising some restraint and securing your mouth.

You're not just making yourself look like an idiot, you're also making yourself look like an over-defensive sexist pig who feels threatened whenever anyone tells you that the gender relations you're used to are in any way problematic.

 

[BeanDelphiki]

No no, I grasp the argument completely, I'm sorry for oversimplifying it.

Fair enough!

1. I believe that phrase was intended to work in the same way as "our people" (i.e. Earth's women.) The real issue with that line is implying that the only motivation Duke has is the aliens taking our women.

I just can't buy this, what with our world's long history of referring to women in possessive ways, as belonging to men, even as chattel. Even if I gave the writer of that line the benefit of the doubt that they meant "mankind" by "our," I simply don't believe that's the way the line will most often be HEARD (particularly since the vast majority of people who will play the game - if they ever do play the game - will be guys).

He could also just be pointing out one of the game's cliches for comedic effect, as Duke now seems pretty much aware that he's a videogame character.

Duke's self-parody is a fair point, I didn't consider that.

The argument I made in my above post is that misogynist is the wrong word for Duke. I don't really see any hatred of women in Duke, but more of the raw impersonal lust for women expected of his ultra-hedonistic personality.

There's a lot of misogyny that isn't about conscious, individual hatred so much as learned group behaviour that seems so normal to you that you can't see what is hateful, harmful or destructive [to women] about it. Perfect examples are sexual behaviours men engage in that women generally perceive as intimidating, threatening, rude or invasive, while guys perceive it as harmless, complimentary, and "just being a guy."

If the majority group in a situation perceives their own behaviour to be good, harmless, or worth defending while the minority group's perception is that they are under attack...the majority group's behaviour is probably hateful, if only because it is behaviour which reinforces a status quo that keeps the minority a minority.

Unless we're to assume that the aliens have somehow captured all of Earth's women, which would be patently ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Do you recall seeing any "free" women in Duke Nukem 3D that weren't sex workers? There did seem to be an implication that their occupations were the only thing that "saved" them. I mean, maybe we were supposed to believe that there were free women...uh, somewhere else...but I don't recall the game ever explicitly stating so. Maybe I'm not remembering right, so let me know.

 

[Blind Sight]

He could also be referring feminists who focus far too much on very little things. For example, I live with a slightly crazy feminist, and she goes on and on about how it's wrong for hospitals to put girl babies in pink blankets and boy babies in blue blankets. I personally don't see the great ill that this is inflicting on society.

Of course you wouldn't. After all, sexual difference isn't a problem or anything, it's not like it leads to pronounced social inequality.

Feminists often focus on small things because they are symptomatic of big things. The blankets, for example, are interesting because they highlight the issue of binary sexual difference, its position in childrearing and the hundreds of years of cultural history which produce those subjects. 'Pink' has associations, 'blue' has associations and those colours will mark the way those children grow up for the rest of their lives, often to their detriment.

It is by critiquing 'common sense' practices which establish gender relations that early feminists achieved the gender reforms we take for granted today.

I think they should focus on more important things like studying extreme Muslim culture that calls for honour killings of disgraced women, but apparently the blanket thing is a big deal to a lot of women's studies majors.

Feminists do focus on those things. Perhaps not feminists you've heard of. White middle class feminists have generally became quite rightly cautious about telling brown women on the other side of the world how to correctly deal with their problems.

Seriously though, go to a university or college with a womens/gender studies department and actually visit the library. You'll find hundreds and hundreds of books on gendered violence. I should know, I study in one.

Been to them, took a women's studies course, and read several books my roommate suggested to me (including a very interesting one called '****: A Declaration of Independence'). And I'm still not impressed. I'm aware that feminists study gendered violence, what I dislike is that there isn't a larger focus on that and other important issues in these courses. I don't like hearing about PERCEIVED sexual bias, such as in that example, colour differences. Tell me, how will those colours drastically alter those childrens' perceptions at such a young age? Or the hospital staff? Or mine for that matter? Will it effect the way that these babies are treated? My answer is no. They're simply colours. Blue, pink, dressed them in rainbows for all I care, I don't see how it will completely alter their development and cause 'detrimental' side effects. When I was a child I had a pink blanket for years(I'm a male), has that somehow shifted my viewpoints or beliefs? If the blanket had been green, would I be a different person? Of course not. When it comes down to it, individuals are obviously affected by their environment, but overall it is their choices that makes them who they are, not the environment itself. Maybe I'm giving humans more credit then they're worth, but a person forms their own viewpoints based off of their reason, not colour associations.

 

[Wintermoot]

nope but they forgot the fact Duke SAVES the world for women (a bit for selfish purposes but still he saves the world for the women).
But yeah I get it why they are mad.
Although a game where everything is the opposite (a game where you play a female version of Duke and saving men instead of woman) would be interesting to see.

 

[WolfEdge]

... I... I don't think that response could been more perfect.

Like, seriously, how do you even counter that? Mr. Pitchford essentially just assured he would be able to safely have his over-the-top-masculine-hero-cake, and eat it too.

Wait... that didn't come out right...

...And neither did that...

 

[Iron Lightning]

No no, I grasp the argument completely, I'm sorry for oversimplifying it.

Fair enough!

Glad I cleared that up

1. I believe that phrase was intended to work in the same way as "our people" (i.e. Earth's women.) The real issue with that line is implying that the only motivation Duke has is the aliens taking our women.

I just can't buy this, what with our world's long history of referring to women in possessive ways, as belonging to men, even as chattel. Even if I gave the writer of that line the benefit of the doubt that they meant "mankind" by "our," I simply don't believe that's the way the line will most often be HEARD (particularly since the vast majority of people who will play the game - if they ever do play the game - will be guys).

Fair enough, I'm just telling you the way I heard it. It is a pretty weak line and I hope it doesn't make it into the game.

He could also just be pointing out one of the game's cliches for comedic effect, as Duke now seems pretty much aware that he's a videogame character.

Duke's self-parody is a fair point, I didn't consider that.

Yep, it's quite hilarious how a character that was originally a direct parody of action movie stars somehow became a genuine character who is also a self-parody. I can't think of any other fictional character that's a parody of a parody.

The argument I made in my above post is that misogynist is the wrong word for Duke. I don't really see any hatred of women in Duke, but more of the raw impersonal lust for women expected of his ultra-hedonistic personality.

There's a lot of misogyny that isn't about conscious, individual hatred so much as learned group behaviour that seems so normal to you that you can't see what is hateful, harmful or destructive [to women] about it. Perfect examples are sexual behaviours men engage in that women generally perceive as intimidating, threatening, rude or invasive, while guys perceive it as harmless, complimentary, and "just being a guy."

If the majority group in a situation perceives their own behaviour to be good, harmless, or worth defending while the minority group's perception is that they are under attack...the majority group's behaviour is probably hateful, if only because it is behaviour which reinforces a status quo that keeps the minority a minority.

Well, I can certainly see the harm in unintentional misogyny, although the "unintentional part" shows more of a lack of empathy than personal bias. However this doesn't really apply to the women in Duke's life who are the sort of women who don't mind his behavior.

You seem to have made a mistake, there are equal amounts of men and women. I certainly agree that we need to not oppress women but I don't quite see how this applies to Duke so much. I mean I'm the first to admit that Duke's certainly a jackass, but I wouldn't call him a misogynist as he quite simply doesn't appear to hate women. He still might, of course, I haven't really gotten that impression of him. Let's hope this new game doesn't have him slapping prostitutes.

If you want an example of true misogyny see this lovely review of Metroid Other M [http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html], now that game is some truly detestable shit.

Unless we're to assume that the aliens have somehow captured all of Earth's women, which would be patently ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Do you recall seeing any "free" women in Duke Nukem 3D that weren't sex workers? There did seem to be an implication that their occupations were the only thing that "saved" them. I mean, maybe we were supposed to believe that there were free women...uh, somewhere else...but I don't recall the game ever explicitly stating so. Maybe I'm not remembering right, so let me know.

Yes sir, there was one free woman in a bar somewhere in the first three levels (I forget exactly where) that looked kinda like Jill Valentine in Resident Evil 3 although I'm pretty sure the likeness was unintentional. She's notable for being the only woman who you can tip but won't flash you, I bet she thinks it's pretty funny that Duke's giving her money just for existing. There's (bizarrely) also a few cheerleaders off to the side when you're fighting the Cycloid Emperor at the end of episode 3. Still, Duke Nukem 3D is pretty damn underpopulated, the only living dudes I can think of are Duke, Hannibal Lector, and the general in the cutscene at the start of episode 4. Heh, at least it had more women than Half-Life. XD

Ya know, I never figured that I'd have to think this much about a Duke Nukem game, go figure.

 

[BeanDelphiki]

Will it effect the way that these babies are treated? My answer is no.

Are you serious? People will almost always assume that a baby dressed or wrapped in pink is female, and of course it affects the way they will treat that child.

When I was a child I had a pink blanket for years(I'm a male), has that somehow shifted my viewpoints or beliefs?

The blanket alone? Undoubtedly not. But then, did your parents dress you in pink for years thereafter? Balk if you wanted to cut your hair above your ears to look more like your favourite superhero? Give you Barbies even when you begged for Ninja Turtles? No?

Balk if you wanted to wear pink? React badly if you tried to grow your hair out? Stiffened if you showed too much interest in dolls? What if you didn't want to do any of those things...are you sure you know the reason why?

Pink vs. blue blankets are a small thing, just one symptom; it's just that they're part of a larger pattern of quite inflexible standards and expectations we have for our children based entirely on biological sex. For every example you can come up with of your parents "not caring" if you fit a particular gendered expectation, I bet there's another example where they cared an awful lot. I mean, I know my parents really wanted to be "cool" and let me be my own person, but there's a lot of outside pressure for any parents to raise their children "right," and those expectations are heavily gendered.

If you think that socialization as a male hasn't affected your development as a person, you're awfully self-deluded.

The thing about the blankets that I imagine a lot of people find disturbing is that those are newborns. They haven't even gone home yet, and this socialization has already started.

 

[Iron Lightning]

nope but they forgot the fact Duke SAVES the world for women (a bit for selfish purposes but still he saves the world for the women).
But yeah I get it why they are mad.
Although a game where everything is the opposite (a game where you play a female version of Duke and saving men instead of woman) would be interesting to see.

Dude, now that would be awesome. The closest thing I can think of is Beyond Good & Evil (wonderful game, by the way, I would give it a go) which involves a woman who

Spoiler

rescues a pig-man (don't ask) from aliens.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Been to them, took a women's studies course, and read several books my roommate suggested to me (including a very interesting one called '****: A Declaration of Independence'). And I'm still not impressed. I'm aware that feminists study gendered violence, what I dislike is that there isn't a larger focus on that and other important issues in these courses.

I'm doing my Msc in Gender studies and applying for my PhD in the same.

I can assure you it's big damn thing.

Maybe what bugs you is that they don't approach gendered violence in the ways you consider relevant, for example by writing narratives of how 'islamic culture' (meaning what?) oppresses 'women' (how, and meaning what?) and how best we should go about enforcing the liberal model of human rights which has proved so successful in our country at preventing women from becoming victims of gendered violence and oppression.

When it comes down to it, individuals are obviously affected by their environment, but overall it is their choices that makes them who they are, not the environment itself. Maybe I'm giving humans more credit then they're worth, but a person forms their own viewpoints based off of their reason, not colour associations.

A little simplistic.

I don't want to have to start at the 'beginning' with Simone de Beauvoir, but suffice to say the means by which sexual difference is constituted culturally is an extremely important area of feminist studies (and masculinity studies, and sexuality studies, and race studies for that matter). Colours don't have intrinsic meaning, but the fact they have culturally constructed meaning is symptomatic of wider concepts and meanings which are mapped on to male and female bodies throughout development.

and yes, you are giving humans too much agency (although I wouldn't say 'credit'). Choices don't happen in a vacuum, and they aren't in any way fair or equal choices. There are still gendered consequences of making particular choices, some of which can be destructive and harmful to the person in question. There are actual power dynamics which play out throughout society and which function along gendered lines. There are different forms of language, different modes of behaviour, and unless you want to be a social outcast you'd better be making the right choices in relation to these things.

It's easy to pretend we live in a post-feminist utopia where women can choose to get their tits out (or be portrayed lounging at the feet of a well muscled male protagonist) as an expression of their empowered nature, but any analysis beyond the cursory reveals that's not a fair choice. Gendered power dynamics can be complex, which is why we generally don't talk about 'patriarchy' any more, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[BeanDelphiki]

You seem to have made a mistake, there are equal amounts of men and women.

In this context, "minority" is referring to the oppressed group; not a literal, numerical minority. See definition 2b [a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/minority"]here[/a], that's what I meant.

Yes sir, there was one free woman in a bar somewhere in the first three levels (I forget exactly where) that looked kinda like Jill Valentine in Resident Evil 3 although I'm pretty sure the likeness was unintentional. She's notable for being the only woman who you can tip but won't flash you, I bet she thinks it's pretty funny that Duke's giving her money just for existing.

Funny, at the time I played it, I wondered if she was meant to be a prostitute. I know my little sister thought so when SHE played! Looking at an LP now, I think I assumed that based on her...fashion choices.

 

[thiosk]

Look, the duke is about to save all of Chickdom from collective alien-rape.

If that isn't heroic, nothing is.

 

[Iron Lightning]

You seem to have made a mistake, there are equal amounts of men and women.

In this context, "minority" is referring to the oppressed group; not a literal, numerical minority. See definition 2b [a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/minority"]here[/a], that's what I meant.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that definition, thanks for telling me

Yes sir, there was one free woman in a bar somewhere in the first three levels (I forget exactly where) that looked kinda like Jill Valentine in Resident Evil 3 although I'm pretty sure the likeness was unintentional. She's notable for being the only woman who you can tip but won't flash you, I bet she thinks it's pretty funny that Duke's giving her money just for existing.

Funny, at the time I played it, I wondered if she was meant to be a prostitute. I know my little sister thought so when SHE played! Looking at an LP now, I think I assumed that based on her...fashion choices.

Well if she is then she's the worst prostitute in the business, she just stands there and does nothing. XD

Well, I think we've reached a consensus here, thanks for being an intelligent and reasonable debate partner.

 

[Realitycrash]

Duke is basically a tounge-in-cheek joke pointed at our macho-culture. Making him a "feminist hero" would just ruin the joke.

 

[ldwater]

I guess if they used Duke as a 'this is not a guy you want to meet' then great, but I think they are missing the joke a little.

The whole point of Duke is that he is taking the piss outta 80s & 90s action heros with a over the top hyper masculine hero (instead of just a hyper masculine hero ).

Its funny the way he acts, and even if he sounds like a bit of a douche does he actually mistreat the women? Ok you can shoot um in DN 3D but apart from that he doesn't beat or hurt women at all, and hes gotta be nice enough if women want to hang with him in the first place.

So yeah, in sort Duke is a parody of all things manly and anyone who uses Duke as a role model is stupid.

Now if you don't mind I'm going to slip some $1 bills into a lap dancers pants and rip off an aliens head and crap down its throat... Come get some!

 

[Leg End]

But... he actually respects women. :/

He may seem like a male chauvinist pig, but, seriously, he actually respects women more than anyone. :/

He fucking watches Oprah for fucks sake.

HE IS FRIENDS WITH OPRAH(If I remember correctly).

Hail To The King, Baby.

 

[Sutter Cane]

Huh. I thought Duke Nukem was killing loads of enemies while spewing amusing one liners.
Also, I really don't like femenists. I can understand wanting women's rights, in that case I would support them, but they already have women rights, so now they're just trying to prove that they're superior, which is ridiculous. Everyone is equal, no matter what sex.

I'm sorry, but with 1 out of every 6 women are raped, and only something close to...what? 60% of their crimes going unreported...women aren't equal.

They are MORE equal than before. Under our laws, they are equal, and our society has taken a HUGE step forward in the past 50 years...but we still have so very far to go.

It sucks, but we've still got a long, hard fight to go. The best way to make things better would be to battle rape culture. Challenge assumptions about women being weaker, don't objectify them (which is different from enjoying women aesthetically, but sometimes the two can be confused).

But hey, we've made ridiculously huge strides forward. But don't let those blind you to the facts.

First of all, sauce on the 1 in 6 figure and the 60% go unreported. Also, if they don't report their crimes, how can you claim that the law is biased, since you know these things aren't being brought up to the law since they're not reported? That just doesn't seem to make sense to me.