Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

Phasmal

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Sarge034 said:
Phasmal said:
Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out.
Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.
Now this is interesting. Most women I know expect men to go at their normally slower pace, but when a man wants to have a leisurely pre-dating get to know each other friendship it is suddenly too slow. Women will even stop the relationship from making any forward progress under the guise of "moving too fast" just to get a better feel for the guy, but I had better try no such thing!

Now don't get me wrong I have had some bad relationships and I have had some good ones. So I know the ropes, it just seems that in my age bracket more and more women are doing this stuff. So it might be an early to mid-20's thing... I don't know.
I guess things need to develop at the pace you both feel ready for, and it may be hard to gauge what the other persons speed is. Me, I get a feel for what someone is like quite quickly, and as such I've only been in two relationships, one I am still in and the other that lasted two years.

But what I meant was, there are certain things you can only learn about a person through dating them. If my ex had said from the start `I think its okay to dictate to my girlfriend what she can and cannot wear and who she can talk to and other such mindfuckery`, I would have avoided him like the freaking plague.
 

artanis_neravar

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Phasmal said:
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :p
And being the friend who flirts with the friend who is oblivious makes things a little difficult.

Sarge034 said:
Here in lies the problem for men like me. I want to be a friend to get to know the woman better. You know, see if a relationship could be more than just physical attraction.
And that shouldn't take you long to figure out, a weekend or two with friends should start to give you an insight into her personality and likes and dislikes.
 

Phasmal

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artanis_neravar said:
Phasmal said:
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :p
And being the friend who flirts with the friend who is oblivious makes things a little difficult.
Oblivious people are... different. They may require a bit less subtlety.
(Is oblivious herself)
 

Sarge034

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Phasmal said:
I guess things need to develop at the pace you both feel ready for, and it may be hard to gauge what the other persons speed is. Me, I get a feel for what someone is like quite quickly, and as such I've only been in two relationships, one I am still in and the other that lasted two years.

But what I meant was, there are certain things you can only learn about a person through dating them. If my ex had said from the start `I think its okay to dictate to my girlfriend what she can and cannot wear and who she can talk to and other such mindfuckery`, I would have avoided him like the freaking plague.
I get all of that, but I guess I kinda moved into unintended territory. I have unintentionally started trying to get you to see this from a male's perspective. Not that there is anything wrong with your perspective, but it never hurts to see the other side right?

As a man I want to know the woman I might date because who wants to waste their time on bad relationships if you don't have to? Dating is expensive, and lets face it a high cost with little to no chance of any type of return is a good way to go broke fast. Women are for the most part finicky from a male's perspective in that they say they want one thing but really want another. For the finally if we take too long to ask a girl out after becoming a friend we slip into this black hole of "friend zone". From our (male) side it looks like women are holding all of the cards, so that is why waaaaaaaaaaay up there I asked if both women and men could evaluate their behavior because we both do things to screw up this process.
 

Char-Nobyl

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museofdoom said:
Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.
Ah, excellent. I do love me some controversy.

museofdoom said:
So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.
Hang on, what? I thought the hypothetical male was romantically attracted to the girl in question. As in, not just seeking "to get a little action." There's a difference between not being a jerk to someone and actively being kind to them: the former is polite indifference, while the latter is active kindness.

So which is it? Is the guy asking her out, or is he plucking up the courage to outright ask for sexual favors in return for his previous actions?

museofdoom said:
Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?
You're adding damning details to the basic story, all of which are clearly intended to tilt the odds in your favor.

museofdoom said:
Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for.
...hang on a second. Doesn't that just mean she's lying when she says she wishes she could "find a guy like you"? In your metaphor, the girl sets out to find something specific and ends up with a completely different variant of it. If you go out intending to buy a pair of red shoes and come back with gray hiking boots, you clearly liked the latter a lot more than the former. They both might be footwear, but they're completely different in all other respects.

And with that in mind...
museofdoom said:
So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you.
...this just means she's trying to say, "I wish I could find a guy, like you." That's just a roundabout way of saying that she doesn't like you, but is still attracted to your gender.

museofdoom said:
This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.
But I thought that she liked you enough to say that she wants to "find a guy like you."

I'm sure it's already been mentioned in the fourteen pages of posts, but a popular analogy for this situation is thus: you find yourself turned down for a job, but are informed that your resume will be kept on file and every new prospective candidate will be compared to you. You can't still get the job, but you'll be periodically informed of how new workers fail to live up to the standards you set in your interview.
 

Phasmal

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Sarge034 said:
I get all of that, but I guess I kinda moved into unintended territory. I have unintentionally started trying to get you to see this from a male's perspective. Not that there is anything wrong with your perspective, but it never hurts to see the other side right?

As a man I want to know the woman I might date because who wants to waste their time on bad relationships if you don't have to? Dating is expensive, and lets face it a high cost with little to no chance of any type of return is a good way to go broke fast. Women are for the most part finicky from a male's perspective in that they say they want one thing but really want another. For the finally if we take too long to ask a girl out after becoming a friend we slip into this black hole of "friend zone". From our (male) side it looks like women are holding all of the cards, so that is why waaaaaaaaaaay up there I asked if both women and men could evaluate their behavior because we both do things to screw up this process.
I've heard `dating is expensive` several times, but I dont think I've ever had or been expensive during dating. I initially go out with boyfriend, neither of us have jobs, we go to a restaurant (our first date was on my birthday), he buys because its my birthday, cost him maybe £25 (less in dollars but I dont know how much and cba to google it). Next month is his birthday, I pay for us to go out.

I can't say I have cost my boyfriend any more than he has cost me.
 

deathzero021

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actually that isn't the reason males get mad at friend zoning. it's because they may or may not have a serious desire for the girl. it's not about getting into their pants it's about being with them romantically. being rejected by a close friend that you like is an incredibly painful feeling. i'm guessing the OP just hasn't experienced this. it seems to be an experience more common with guys.

so since your a female and haven't been in the situation, i don't think you can tell us males why it is we rant about it. that's being ignorant and rude. asking the question would have been good enough but describing it without having a clue about what's really going on is just stupid.
 

artanis_neravar

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Char-Nobyl said:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you. I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them. To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.
 

artanis_neravar

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deathzero021 said:
actually that isn't the reason males get mad at friend zoning. it's because they may or may not have a serious desire for the girl. it's not about getting into their pants it's about being with them romantically. being rejected by a close friend that you like is an incredibly painful feeling. i'm guessing the OP just hasn't experienced this. it seems to be an experience more common with guys.

so since your a female and haven't been in the situation, i don't think you can tell us males why it is we rant about it. that's being ignorant and rude. asking the question would have been good enough but describing it without having a clue about what's really going on is just stupid.
Well I am male, and yes the OP is right. You claiming that she is a woman and therefore doesn't understand is what is ignorant and rude. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she's been on the other side? Maybe she rejected a guy who acted this exact way? Or maybe she has been on the advice section of this or any forum and watched all the guys complain about how much attention they have heaped on a girl only for her to have the nerve to reject him. She wasn't talking about all men, just the guys who act nice because they believe that it makes them entitled to a relationship. And when they don't get it the start badmouthing the girl who was their friend moments before and end the friendship.

And before you ask, I have been reject by girls who are my friend, and guess what? We stayed friends I didn't hold it against them, and I got over it.
 

artanis_neravar

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Phasmal said:
artanis_neravar said:
Phasmal said:
As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :p
And being the friend who flirts with the friend who is oblivious makes things a little difficult.
Oblivious people are... different. They may require a bit less subtlety.
(Is oblivious herself)
Oblivious people sure can be entertaining though. Maybe I'll try slowly reducing the subtly till she starts to notice...
 

Vegosiux

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artanis_neravar said:
Char-Nobyl said:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you. I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them. To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.
You (not just you, tho) seem to be mixing up "is attractive" and "am attracted to". Maybe looks like an insignificant difference, but it isn't, really.
 

deathzero021

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artanis_neravar said:
deathzero021 said:
actually that isn't the reason males get mad at friend zoning. it's because they may or may not have a serious desire for the girl. it's not about getting into their pants it's about being with them romantically. being rejected by a close friend that you like is an incredibly painful feeling. i'm guessing the OP just hasn't experienced this. it seems to be an experience more common with guys.

so since your a female and haven't been in the situation, i don't think you can tell us males why it is we rant about it. that's being ignorant and rude. asking the question would have been good enough but describing it without having a clue about what's really going on is just stupid.
Well I am male, and yes the OP is right. You claiming that she is a woman and therefore doesn't understand is what is ignorant and rude. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she's been on the other side? Maybe she rejected a guy who acted this exact way? Or maybe she has been on the advice section of this or any forum and watched all the guys complain about how much attention they have heaped on a girl only for her to have the nerve to reject him. She wasn't talking about all men, just the guys who act nice because they believe that it makes them entitled to a relationship. And when they don't get it the start badmouthing the girl who was their friend moments before and end the friendship.

And before you ask, I have been reject by girls who are my friend, and guess what? We stayed friends I didn't hold it against them, and I got over it.
what i meant by her not understanding, is that she hasn't been in the male point of view on the issue, i never meant that she hadn't been in the situation entirely but if she was on the side that was rejecting than she must not understand how the guy FEELS about it and why they may do or say stupid things because they are hurt. i dont think they rant because they are hateful, theyre doing it to vent out their pain.

if you stayed friends with them than that's great but not everyone is going to react the same way and you can't expect everyone to get over it. some people just cant. so i can understand those type of people and i'm not going to attack them. personally none of this matters to me because i havent been in the situation but i have been close to it and i can put myself into their shoes and understand somewhat how they are feeling.

i dont think they would stop being friends because they didnt "get any" they may stop being friends because it would become too uncomfortable for them. the guy might always see her in a romantic way and therefor just cant be the type of friend she wants him to be. i dont understand why if a guy likes a girl, people instantly assume he just wants to sleep with her? that's disturbing to hear... really i can't understand that. there are plenty of men interested in romantic and meaningful relationships. to assume that these guys are just chasing tail is juvenile.

if you really think about it, what kinda tailchaser is going to devote a lot of time to a close friend of his, be nice for her and hang out with her a lot, just to try and get some? in case you haven't noticed, those qualities don't match that of a tailchaser. those qualities match that of someone who is romantically interested. guys chasing sex aren't gonna stick around like that. they hit the bars, they try and sleep with girls on the first night. seriously use your heads people.
 

Sean Steele

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museofdoom said:
Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0
I think it comes from a few things. (This is an outside perspective I don't get mad, I have a friend for whom I have romantic feelings who is completely plutonic to me and I'm fine with it.)

-The nice guy type of guy tends to not always be the most social guy, which leads up to that guy really focusing his efforts on a girl mostly on generally limited options.

-Everything in society tells guys that a pretty girl is the general reward he can expect, Stand up to a bully, get the girl, save the universe, get the girl, graduate highschool, get the girl. (Its been around forever look at Fred and Wilma Flintstone, be an obnoxious stupid loudmouth jackass, you still get a wife with an hourglass figure and red hair.) So when the nice guy dose what he feels is going out of his way to prove himself a suitable life partner he feels naturally and unfairly (If not consiously or realistically) cheated when he dosn't get his pretty girl society has promised him.

-The guy tends to receive mixed signals the aforementioned "I would really want a guy like you." That like in there gets edited out by the brain pretty instantly.

I'm not saying its fair of them to get mad at you or feel particularly entitled but generally its these things that causes it.
 

artanis_neravar

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Vegosiux said:
artanis_neravar said:
Char-Nobyl said:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you. I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them. To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.
You (not just you, tho) seem to be mixing up "is attractive" and "am attracted to". Maybe looks like an insignificant difference, but it isn't, really.
No, no I am not. Being attractive is subjective. For example I do not find models attractive, I don't find large breast of butts attractive so i would define such a person as unattractive, while people who do like those things would define them as attractive.
 

fenrizz

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Combine Rustler said:
Ok. Here's a streamlined and stupid version of how romantic relationships go.

For both genders, the most important factor is physical appearance, specifically that the other person happens to find yours attractive. Second is how desperate you are for a relationship and for sex. Everything else, personality, intelligence, whatever the fuck have you is more or less irrelevant when it comes to hooking up w/ someone. This works both ways.
Indeed.
The more desperate you are, the harder it is.
And that kind of desperation is not easy to hide in a believable manner.

Also, I don't even understand the "friendszone" thing at all.
Being angry because she wants to stay friends?

What kind of bullshit is that?
Being friends with a girl and being nice to her does not in any way entitle you to get in her pants and/or having a romantic/physicak relationship with her.

If anything it is she that should be pissed of at you, because clearly your not really interested in being her friend at all.
 

artanis_neravar

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deathzero021 said:
snip

if you really think about it, what kinda tailchaser is going to devote a lot of time to a close friend of his, be nice for her and hang out with her a lot, just to try and get some? in case you haven't noticed, those qualities don't match that of a tailchaser. those qualities match that of someone who is romantically interested. guys chasing sex aren't gonna stick around like that. they hit the bars, they try and sleep with girls on the first night. seriously use your heads people.
While you are right about some guys, there are many who act just the way the OP described for the reasons that she described.

For the part I quoted they aren't really tailchasers in the traditional sense. Their goal isn't necessarily (misspelled necessarily as nessicarliy and spell check tried to correct me to carsickness) sex. And even when it is they aren't the type of guy with the confidence or charisma to pick up a girl at the bar. So they do what they think they should do to get a "girlfriend". They treat courtship as set prerequisites to a realtionship, something that if you do it all you immediately go from friend to boyfriend. It's that they are only being nice because they believe that being nice is what women expect, not because they genuinely act nice. They are the guys who will agree with everything a girl says just because they believe that is what the girl wants. Everything they do for the girl is because they believe it's what they are supposed to do, not because they want to.
 

Smooth Operator

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Sarge034 said:
It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit.
Ah you just haveto put things into context and it makes perfect sense.
You see the viable candidates for relationships are exciting guys, and that scope does not include the default nice and dependable guys because they are quite dull and with it quite invisible.
So when a girl says "I want a nice guy" it means they want the exciting guys to also be nice and dependable for them, and when they say "I want a guy like you" it again means they want someone exciting to have your traits, so on and so forth...

It is a strange and convoluted system but it luckily means that "friend-zone" is not the end point if you are willing to reform into an exciting guy.
 

Char-Nobyl

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artanis_neravar said:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you.
That's just a more specific kind of bad. If a girl turns down a relationship because of that, she's the epitome of every girl who has ever posted a "OMG all guys are such dicks" status on Facebook, or claimed that "All the best guys are gay or married."

You're describing someone who says, "I like everything about you, but I think I can do better in the looks department. Will you stick around and support me until I find 'You 2.0'?" That's shallow and self-centered almost beyond words.

artanis_neravar said:
I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them.
Okay...now, riddle me this: are you not attracted to them because you find them ugly? Or is it because you think their personalities make them great friends, but not great partners?

artanis_neravar said:
To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.
Wait, what? How are looks equitable with education in this comparison? If anything, you can use looks both times through. It's like getting turned down by a hospital because you don't look enough like their idealized image of a doctor, even if they think you're perfect for the job in every other regard.
 

deathzero021

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artanis_neravar said:
deathzero021 said:
snip

if you really think about it, what kinda tailchaser is going to devote a lot of time to a close friend of his, be nice for her and hang out with her a lot, just to try and get some? in case you haven't noticed, those qualities don't match that of a tailchaser. those qualities match that of someone who is romantically interested. guys chasing sex aren't gonna stick around like that. they hit the bars, they try and sleep with girls on the first night. seriously use your heads people.
While you are right about some guys, there are many who act just the way the OP described for the reasons that she described.

For the part I quoted they aren't really tailchasers in the traditional sense. Their goal isn't necessarily (misspelled necessarily as nessicarliy and spell check tried to correct me to carsickness) sex. And even when it is they aren't the type of guy with the confidence or charisma to pick up a girl at the bar. So they do what they think they should do to get a "girlfriend". They treat courtship as set prerequisites to a realtionship, something that if you do it all you immediately go from friend to boyfriend. It's that they are only being nice because they believe that being nice is what women expect, not because they genuinely act nice. They are the guys who will agree with everything a girl says just because they believe that is what the girl wants. Everything they do for the girl is because they believe it's what they are supposed to do, not because they want to.
hmm well i guess i wouldn't know much about those types than (i have no male friends lol). i wouldn't say it's impossible, there are some strange people out there. i just wanted to get my point across that not all guys ranting about friend zoning are the type you just described and not all of them deserve any sort of harsh treatment for it. it might also be quite hard to see the difference between the motives of these varying people so lets just avoid jumping to conclusions before hearing them out. that's all im saying.