Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Casual Shinji

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Retractions are notorious for not getting as much coverage as the initial false reporting. The whole mass raping and beheaded babies news already did all the damage it could before it was officially refuted (by some).
 
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Silvanus

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I HATE when people think the conflict is one sided, especially when they hand wave all the fucked up things hamas has done.
In terms of both power and the devastation caused, the conflict is tremendously one-sided. More than almost any other.

Hamas gave isreal a blank check with the October 5th attack.
This is, quite obviously, not how international law governing warfare works. It hasn't been since before the Geneva Conventions.

Of course Hamas doesn't give a shit about the lives it imperils. They knew they couldn't win militarily; the purpose was to draw the IDF into a mire of a conflict in which their own conduct alienates their backers. None of this is reason to overlook or excuse the grotesque civilian death toll and destruction of civilian infrastructure.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Of course Hamas doesn't give a shit about the lives it imperils.
You might be operating under a misapprehension; secular Marxist organizations like PFLP were also involved in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
In terms of both power and the devastation caused, the conflict is tremendously one-sided. More than almost any other.
Yeah, rather one sided and israel has much more capacity to inflict damage.
 

Gordon_4

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A terrorist group is a terrorist group, and Hamas is labeled and condemned by the international community as a terrorist group.
Hamas was also, since like 2006, the elected defacto government in Gaza. Now that is a grand simplification of the political power structures of Gaza and the West Bank there is much more to it than that obviously but frankly I don't see why Israel would accept the November attacks as the actions of terrorism rather than an open declaration of war by a state backed force.
 

Seanchaidh

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And ?

Secular marxists can't sacrifice the population for the greater good in your opinion?
the point is that the act of resistance on Oct 7 was supported by a lot more than just Hamas. And not to put too fine a point on it but those resistance groups all live there too. They're not in Washington D.C. wanking to pictures of broken bodies and destroyed buildings.
 

Satinavian

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Hamas was also, since like 2006, the elected defacto government in Gaza. Now that is a grand simplification of the political power structures of Gaza and the West Bank there is much more to it than that obviously but frankly I don't see why Israel would accept the November attacks as the actions of terrorism rather than an open declaration of war by a state backed force.
Because that would mean recognizing Palestine as a nation and thus giving Hamas what it wants the most.

Not that Israels warfare would be acceptable even if they were fighting against a nation.
 
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tstorm823

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(as they love to film themselves doing shit like firing randomly at a building or destroying a citizens shop)
It's effectively impossible to fact check videos like this, but the one I put the effort into in this thread months ago, allegedly posted by IDF soldiers, was actually posted by a amateur videographer whose other current videos were him on vacation thousands of miles from the conflict.

Videos can be faked, videos can be posted with deceitful context, you have no way of validating these things. It is dense irony that you accuse people of believing everything they're told.
 

Silvanus

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You might be operating under a misapprehension; secular Marxist organizations like PFLP were also involved in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
Don't see how this changes anything. Some organisations-- chief among them Hamas-- were more involved in planning and strategy than bit-players like the PFLP. The sum of PFLP involvement I can see is a broad public call to get involved.

FWIW, that Greg Stoker video you posted yourself came to the same conclusion as i did: that the disproportionate retaliation was foreseen and desired by Hamas.
 

Seanchaidh

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Don't see how this changes anything. Some organisations-- chief among them Hamas-- were more involved in planning and strategy than bit-players like the PFLP. The sum of PFLP involvement I can see is a broad public call to get involved.

FWIW, that Greg Stoker video you posted yourself came to the same conclusion as i did: that the disproportionate retaliation was foreseen and desired by Hamas.
only Hamas?
 

tippy2k2

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It's effectively impossible to fact check videos like this, but the one I put the effort into in this thread months ago, allegedly posted by IDF soldiers, was actually posted by a amateur videographer whose other current videos were him on vacation thousands of miles from the conflict.

Videos can be faked, videos can be posted with deceitful context, you have no way of validating these things. It is dense irony that you accuse people of believing everything they're told.


I did not think I had to specify INTERNET 101 lessons in my post but I guess yes, videos can be faked so don't just blindly believe everything you see.

This argument might hold a bit more weight if we didn't have dozens of verified videos and pictures of IDF soldiers posting their own War Crimes but sure, to specify since it needs to be done I guess, do your best to verify what you're being told is legit.
 
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Gordon_4

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Not that Israels warfare would be acceptable even if they were fighting against a nation.
Are you sure? I'm not even asking that to be sarcastic but I think the twenty odd years of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam before them, which - nominally - were meant to be surgical wars with efforts to win 'hearts and minds' have kind of realigned the way people perceive a war is fought.

Israel and Hamas are fighting a war because they functionally have a seventy year old blood feud and one side decided it was going to kick the hornets nest, and then predictably the hornets got angry. Neither of the governing bodies are interested in hearts and minds, they're interested in killing each other to the point that they don't care how many of their own side are left as long as they're the ones that get to rule over the rubble and the graves. I do not think either side will pull back from this with a very drastic happening. Or a third party capable of overpowering both of them simultaneously puts themselves in the middle of it.
 

Satinavian

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Are you sure? I'm not even asking that to be sarcastic but I think the twenty odd years of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam before them, which - nominally - were meant to be surgical wars with efforts to win 'hearts and minds' have kind of realigned the way people perceive a war is fought.

Israel and Hamas are fighting a war because they functionally have a seventy year old blood feud and one side decided it was going to kick the hornets nest, and then predictably the hornets got angry. Neither of the governing bodies are interested in hearts and minds, they're interested in killing each other to the point that they don't care how many of their own side are left as long as they're the ones that get to rule over the rubble and the graves. I do not think either side will pull back from this with a very drastic happening. Or a third party capable of overpowering both of them simultaneously puts themselves in the middle of it.
War has had rules for thousands of years. The current code what counts as war crimes is over a century old and certainly not based on our modern ideas about surgical strikes. And both the Hamas incursion and the Israeli answer is full of war crimes.

And it seems that Israel is conducting far more war crimes than Hamas, even if that partly comes down to ability.
 

Silvanus

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Are you sure? I'm not even asking that to be sarcastic but I think the twenty odd years of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam before them, which - nominally - were meant to be surgical wars with efforts to win 'hearts and minds' have kind of realigned the way people perceive a war is fought.
The rate of killing in Gaza currently is higher than (I think) in any equivalent timeframe in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is driven in part by population density, of course.

You're certainly right than past wars have dulled the public's capacity for shock. But there is still broad outrage for our involvement in Iraq.
 

tstorm823

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This argument might hold a bit more weight if we didn't have dozens of verified videos and pictures of IDF soldiers posting their own War Crimes but sure, to specify since it needs to be done I guess, do your best to verify what you're being told is legit.
When someone tweets something claiming the original account is an IDF soldier, do you ever question it? Do you do your best to verify what you're being told is legit?
 

tippy2k2

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When someone tweets something claiming the original account is an IDF soldier, do you ever question it? Do you do your best to verify what you're being told is legit?
Yes, I do that for basically everything now since shit like AI has attempted to ruin Art and whatnot. Fucking Internet...