Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

tippy2k2

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Iran did the most kid's gloves retaliation (seriously, with the warning Israel had of the drones and missiles, did a single one even get through?) and Israel is still gonna hissy fit their way into dragging everyone into Hell with them...
 
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No, I don't think isreal is the good guys, I don't think there are good guys in this conflict. Both sides has done fucked up things, hamas has done things that are more fucked up, but isreal can do fucked up things on a wider scale. I HATE when people think the conflict is one sided, especially when they hand wave all the fucked up things hamas has done. People seem to think that just because isreal has more resources and backing, that hamas should be allowed to do anything they want to it because they are the poor minorities against the colonizer westerners.

Welcome to fucken war, there is a reason its bad, if hamas gave any shit about the palistinians then it would have done much more to sue for peace, cause right now, isreal is at the part of war where its taking everything it can. The longer this goes on, the more it will take. Hamas gave isreal a blank check with the October 5th attack.
Oct. 7th, and if you’ve been poking a wounded dog for seven decades to the tune of a 318 billion dollar stick and don’t expect to be bitten back at some point, then maybe it’s time to step outside the box and see things from a different perspective. Hamas was created by the U.S.’s blank check towards enabling Israel’s reckless aggression btw. Palestinians (men especially with their treatment of women) are far from saints, but to imply their people as a whole (especially women and kids) aren’t the bigger victims here is ludicrously shortsighted and/or misguided.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Iran did the most kid's gloves retaliation (seriously, with the warning Israel had of the drones and missiles, did a single one even get through?) and Israel is still gonna hissy fit their way into dragging everyone into Hell with them...
As far as I know, Iranian hypersonic missiles damaged two of the military bases that had been used to assassinate their people or attack their embassy.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Oct. 7th, and if you’ve been poking a wounded dog for seven decades to the tune of a 318 billion dollar stick and don’t expect to be bitten back at some point, then maybe it’s time to step outside the box and see things from a different perspective. Hamas was created by the U.S.’s blank check towards enabling Israel’s reckless aggression btw. Palestinians (men especially with their treatment of women) are far from saints, but to imply their people as a whole (especially women and kids) aren’t the bigger victims here is ludicrously shortsighted and/or misguided.
If palestinians would calm down for awhile then they would have their own state or a one state solution would have been seen as more viable. But they are constantly fighting israel and when there is a deal they back out of it. Violence hasn't worked for them for decades, there is no reason for them to think it will work now. Netanyahu was only elected the first time after a string of palistinian suicide bombings before the 1996 election.
 

crimson5pheonix

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If palestinians would calm down for awhile then they would have their own state or a one state solution would have been seen as more viable. But they are constantly fighting israel and when there is a deal they back out of it. Violence hasn't worked for them for decades, there is no reason for them to think it will work now. Netanyahu was only elected the first time after a string of palistinian suicide bombings before the 1996 election.
"Why are Palestinians in such a tizzy when Israel comes in and beats people's skulls open during a funeral? Honestly, they're just so dramatic."
 

Silvanus

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If palestinians would calm down for awhile then they would have their own state or a one state solution would have been seen as more viable.
There is zero chance this is true. Israel was created explicitly to be a Jewish state, and reiterated its identity as exclusively Jewish in 2018. Fundamental to its founding principle is the idea that it should uniquely cater to one specific group. That's incompatible with a one-state solution that treats different religious & ethnic groups equally.

Likud has also shown zero willingness to entertain the idea of a two-stats solution. Netanyahu has been working against that steadily, including during peacetime, using both legal and clandestine means.

Violence hasn't worked for them for decades, there is no reason for them to think it will work now.
There is also no reason to think passivity would work. Israel's government blocks their power, water and food sources, builds illegal settlements on their land, and allows settlers to commit violent crimes against them with impunity regardless.

It is in situations like this-- where every democratic or legal route has been denied or suppressed-- that disenfranchised and desperate people begin to consider violence.

Netanyahu knows this, and considers the violence a price worth paying to deny the chance of a Palestinian state-- hence why Likud sponsored Hamas, helping it take over and rule Gaza instead of the moderates.
 
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tippy2k2

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If palestinians would calm down for awhile then they would have their own state or a one state solution would have been seen as more viable. But they are constantly fighting israel and when there is a deal they back out of it. Violence hasn't worked for them for decades, there is no reason for them to think it will work now. Netanyahu was only elected the first time after a string of palistinian suicide bombings before the 1996 election.
Please Google "The Great March of Return" to see what happens when Palestinians try to peacefully protest.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
There is zero chance this is true. Israel was created explicitly to be a Jewish state, and reiterated its identity as exclusively Jewish in 2018. Fundamental to its founding principle is the idea that it should uniquely cater to one specific group. That's incompatible with a one-state solution that treats different religious & ethnic groups equally.
Except they also have arab citizens and even legislators. Over 20% of israel's population is not jewish. One state is unlikely as fuck, but its much much more possible then them getting what they want with violence.

There is also no reason to think passivity would work. Israel's government blocks their power, water and food sources, builds illegal settlements on their land, and allows settlers to commit violent crimes against them with impunity regardless.
All that came after palastinian violence against israel. This is a back and forth and israel has much more capacity to do violence, so why are the palastinians so determined to give them a reason to do it? Right now, what we are seeing in gaza, this is israel going off the cuff in response to violence. Without October 7th, this doesn't happen. If you think that the only path forwards is violence, then you are in favor of what is happening now, because this is what will occur.

Please Google "The Great March of Return" to see what happens when Palestinians try to peacefully protest.
You might want to google the great march of return. It wasn't as peaceful as you are making it out.
 

Thaluikhain

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Right now, what we are seeing in gaza, this is israel going off the cuff in response to violence. Without October 7th, this doesn't happen.
Without Oct 7, this doesn't happen on this scale, this fast, you still get decades of slow burn ethnic cleansing.

And without decades of ethnic cleansing, you don't get Oct 7.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Without Oct 7, this doesn't happen on this scale, this fast, you still get decades of slow burn ethnic cleansing.

And without decades of ethnic cleansing, you don't get Oct 7.
You don't have a growing population with ethnic cleansing. Palestine has had pretty strong population growth. Just over the last 10 years they grew by just over 1 million people.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
...there is nothing nice I can possibly say about someone who says "Some people were violent and therefore all those unarmed people deserved to be killed (and many MANY more kneecapped by Israeli snipers)" so y'all can deal with the "As long as it doesn't interrupt my brunch, do whatever you want #VBNMW" centrist.
You are so bad faith. I never said they deserved it, I said it was an expected outcome. You are the one is encouraging them to violence and who wants to dance on the graves of palestinians so you can point to twitter to say "I have the correct opinion."
 

crimson5pheonix

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War has had rules for thousands of years. The current code what counts as war crimes is over a century old and certainly not based on our modern ideas about surgical strikes. And both the Hamas incursion and the Israeli answer is full of war crimes.

And it seems that Israel is conducting far more war crimes than Hamas, even if that partly comes down to ability.
War crimes are only something the defeated parties have to worry about because it’s the victors who do the prosecuting. Also I have a sneaking suspicion Israel is not a signatory to the ICC, so unless another nation decides to invade and conquer them after this whole thing is finished, they in no more danger of being prosecuted for anything than the Allies were for the firebombing of Tokyo, the atomic bombing of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the bombing of Dresden. All of which have been argued - after the fact - as war crimes. But the Allies won, and winners get to dictate terms.
 

Thaluikhain

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War crimes are only something the defeated parties have to worry about because it’s the victors who do the prosecuting.
Generally yes, though there's always the chance of trade sanctions and the like, though Israel doesn't have to worry about that.
 

Seanchaidh

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You might want to google the great march of return. It wasn't as peaceful as you are making it out.
THERE'S A TIRE ROLLING. THERE'S A TIRE ROLLING... CBDR! I REPEAT, THERE'S A TIRE ROLLING CBDR! ACTION STATIONS! SET DEFENSE CONDITION ONE THROUGHOUT THE FENCE
 
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Satinavian

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If palestinians would calm down for awhile then they would have their own state or a one state solution would have been seen as more viable. But they are constantly fighting israel and when there is a deal they back out of it. Violence hasn't worked for them for decades, there is no reason for them to think it will work now. Netanyahu was only elected the first time after a string of palistinian suicide bombings before the 1996 election.
Well, how that works can be seen in the West bank -> no steps forever towards a Palestinian state, more and more Israeli land grabs, constant discrimination, theft and violence from "settlers". And don't forget the random killings and arrests. Non-Violence does not work for Palestinians either.

And when both don't work, then the violence does look more appealing because of justice. And because it gets international attention.
 
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Silvanus

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Except they also have arab citizens and even legislators. Over 20% of israel's population is not jewish.
So what? Countries have persecuted minorities. The majority of South Africa's population during apartheid wasn't white.

All that came after palastinian violence against israel.
This is categorically untrue. Settler violence against the Palestinians dates to the 40s.

This is a back and forth and israel has much more capacity to do violence, so why are the palastinians so determined to give them a reason to do it?
Depends. If by Palestinians you mean Hamas, then its because the disproportionate retaliation of Israel alienates their international backers, and loses them support. If you mean Palestinians as a whole-- they haven't been able to vote since 2006, and even then did not elect Hamas to rule them unilaterally. Most Palestinians alive today never had a chance to vote due to the low average age. Hamas took over from their coalition partners in a coup-- and again, a reminder that Hamas was sponsored by Likud to expel the moderates.
 
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