Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
So what? Countries have persecuted minorities. The majority of South Africa's population during apartheid wasn't white.
Except the minorities in israel have the same rights as the jews. There is some racial discriminations but nothing like apartheid, its not even as bad as black people were treated in the US before civil rights.

This is categorically untrue. Settler violence against the Palestinians dates to the 40s.
You're going to have to look further back then that. One of the earliest incidents was the 1929 palistine riots. You are trying to simplify an incredibly complex situation.

Depends. If by Palestinians you mean Hamas, then its because the disproportionate retaliation of Israel alienates their international backers, and loses them support. If you mean Palestinians as a whole-- they haven't been able to vote since 2006, and even then did not elect Hamas to rule them unilaterally. Most Palestinians alive today never had a chance to vote due to the low average age. Hamas took over from their coalition partners in a coup-- and again, a reminder that Hamas was sponsored by Likud to expel the moderates.
Well, right now it seems like hamas has their support, according to polls. Which I am a bit hesitant to trust since A. hamas has a tendency to be as violent to other arabs as it does jews and B. seems like all the attack did was get them fucked.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Ah, the good old fashioned 'they were asking for it'.

How lovely to see it's still alive and well. Unlike the Palestinians. But I guess they were asking for it, so who cares, right?
So then the jews at the music festival were asking for it? You just want your brownie points for being a centrist.
 

Casual Shinji

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So then the jews at the music festival were asking for it?
No, they were simply raised in a country that told them the people on the otherside of the wall were sub-human and they didn't need to worry about how these people were being horribly mistreated and how they might seek some retaliation for that.

You just want your brownie points for being a centrist.
You might want to look up want that word means then.
 
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Silvanus

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Except the minorities in israel have the same rights as the jews. There is some racial discriminations but nothing like apartheid, its not even as bad as black people were treated in the US before civil rights.
Religious and ethnic minorities do not enjoy the same protections. For decades, Israel had discriminatory practices favouring Jewish applications for business. Then we have systemic discrimination in employment, policing, and dozens of other sectors, tacitly approved by Likud and other far-right governing parties. And then we have the fact that Israel routinely violates the legal rights of Gazans and citizens of the West Bank-- to the point of demolishing their homes, extrajudicially executing them in the streets, and cutting off their vital resources, even in peacetime.


You're going to have to look further back then that. One of the earliest incidents was the 1929 palistine riots. You are trying to simplify an incredibly complex situation.
As someone who studied this area in H.E., I can assure you I'm not.

You'll notice I said "settler".

Well, right now it seems like hamas has their support, according to polls. Which I am a bit hesitant to trust since A. hamas has a tendency to be as violent to other arabs as it does jews and B. seems like all the attack did was get them fucked.
Oh, polls! That's an adequate reason to consider an entire demographic complicit in the actions of their government, a militia who seized power with the assistance of their own declared enemy! Fucking No. Not to mention how collective punishment is itself a contravention of international law.

If there's anyone "simplifying an incredibly complex situation", it's you. Anyone who demonises broad demographics to justify violence against them, or who claims that minorities aren't being persecuted even as they get gunned down with impunity by security forces, clearly wants to ignore all complexity (or just unfavourable facts) in favour of a good-v-bad narrative they've already decided on.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Religious and ethnic minorities do not enjoy the same protections. For decades, Israel had discriminatory practices favouring Jewish applications for business. Then we have systemic discrimination in employment, policing, and dozens of other sectors, tacitly approved by Likud and other far-right governing parties. And then we have the fact that Israel routinely violates the legal rights of Gazans and citizens of the West Bank-- to the point of demolishing their homes, extrajudicially executing them in the streets, and cutting off their vital resources, even in peacetime.
Sounds like exactly what I said about blacks in the US.

As someone who studied this area in H.E., I can assure you I'm not.

You'll notice I said "settler".
Seems like you are still trying to make it an easy to understand good/badguy kinda thing.

Oh, polls! That's an adequate reason to consider an entire demographic complicit in the actions of their government, a militia who seized power with the assistance of their own declared enemy! Fucking No. Not to mention how collective punishment is itself a contravention of international law.

If there's anyone "simplifying an incredibly complex situation", it's you. Anyone who demonises broad demographics to justify violence against them, or who claims that minorities aren't being persecuted even as they get gunned down with impunity by security forces, clearly wants to ignore all complexity (or just unfavourable facts) in favour of a good-v-bad narrative they've already decided on.
Don't give me that bullshit, I know you are not stupid.
 

Silvanus

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Sounds like exactly what I said about blacks in the US.
Literally all you said about black Americans was about their experience pre-civil rights. So, uhrm, yeah, if you want to equate the situation of Palestinians with black Americans before civil rights, go right ahead-- that just destroys your claim that they have equal rights, though.

Seems like you are still trying to make it an easy to understand good/badguy kinda thing.
Because I objected to you characterising Israeli violence as solely a reaction to Palestinian violence? That's the opposite-- I'm refusing a naive good/bad approach you originally took.

Don't give me that bullshit, I know you are not stupid.
On the contrary, it's very relevant: you're insinuating that the wider demographic can be held accountable for the actions of the government it didn't choose-- based on utterly flimsy reasoning-- and then taking it further to undermine sympathy for civilian targets of war crimes. That's obvious collective punishment bullshit.
 

Seanchaidh

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you're insinuating that the wider demographic can be held accountable for the actions of the government it didn't choose
it truly doesn't matter for this purpose whether that government was chosen as it was acting within its rights against an invader whose existence is founded upon the massacre and displacement of their people; Israel does not have a 'right to self defense' against Palestinian resistance while Palestinians have a right to resist irrespective of whether that resistance is undertaken as the result of a democratic process. The issue of blame for that resistance catastrophically misses the point.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Sounds like exactly what I said about blacks in the US.


Seems like you are still trying to make it an easy to understand good/badguy kinda thing.


Don't give me that bullshit, I know you are not stupid.
Quit being a genocide apologist.

 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Literally all you said about black Americans was about their experience pre-civil rights. So, uhrm, yeah, if you want to equate the situation of Palestinians with black Americans before civil rights, go right ahead-- that just destroys your claim that they have equal rights, though.
No, I'm talking about arab israelies, not palastinians. Palestinians aren't citizens of israel. The live in an occupied region, which is one of the many reasons this is a really complex issue.

Because I objected to you characterising Israeli violence as solely a reaction to Palestinian violence? That's the opposite-- I'm refusing a naive good/bad approach you originally took.
No, the thing that really annoys me is when people seem to be saying its one sided. Both sides are assholes to each other, but it seems like online, people handwave hamas and the palastinians being assholes, in favor of just blaming israel for everything. I do feel that palistinian or hamas violence does tend to instigate israeli violence more often, but that is because there are more watch dogs for israel and israel has to worry more about international pressure. We only saw israel go this far after a pretty big hamas attack and they are suffering for it on the international stage. You can argue if that is enough or not, but its some pushback, doesn't seem like hamas gets really any other then being called/handwaved as a terrorist organization.

On the contrary, it's very relevant: you're insinuating that the wider demographic can be held accountable for the actions of the government it didn't choose-- based on utterly flimsy reasoning-- and then taking it further to undermine sympathy for civilian targets of war crimes. That's obvious collective punishment bullshit.
Its also the history of warfare. Innocents will always be killed. For the situation in palastine its even more complicated since hamas loves to launch attacks from civilian areas and has a history of hiding fighters in civilian clothes and hiding weapons in civilian buildings. In an ideal world only bad people would be punished for bad actions, but thats not what happens in the real world.
 

Silvanus

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No, I'm talking about arab israelies, not palastinians. Palestinians aren't citizens of israel. The live in an occupied region, which is one of the many reasons this is a really complex issue.
I know you originally meant Arab Israelis. I widened the conversation to show another group of people, for whom Israel also has responsibility, who are routinely denied basic rights and protections.

No, the thing that really annoys me is when people seem to be saying its one sided.
If you look back through this thread you'll see that I've condemned Hamas as well. Whereas you, here and now, are the one acting as if its one-sided, and that one side should be largely absolved and the responsibility for both sides' actions should rest on the other.

I'm focusing on the culpability of the IDF rather more because... Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but they've killed over 30 fucking thousand people, most of them civilians.

Its also the history of warfare. Innocents will always be killed.
This is not, and has never been, a valid excuse for war crimes.

"Things are always bad, therefore we should accept them being at their absolute worst" is also just dogshit logic.
 
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CaitSeith

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You are so bad faith. I never said they deserved it, I said it was an expected outcome. You are the one is encouraging them to violence and who wants to dance on the graves of palestinians so you can point to twitter to say "I have the correct opinion."
Calm yourself down, because you're going too far with that (and because that's not what "dancing on someone's grave" means).

First of all...

cody.png

Second, what it is needed right now is to avoid encouraging more palestinians to more violence, isn't it? No one here wants the violence to continue. But you know what encourages people into more violence? Bombing their homes and hospitals. Right now little matters who started it; what matters is who is perpetuating it and who has the power to stop it. No matter how much Israel bombs Gaza; that won't turn palestinians against Hamas, because Hamas aren't the ones bombing their homes (the way British civilians reacted towards their own goverment during the WWII's Blitz should be a good precedent on how the civilians feel about it).

And we already saw with Iran that things will keep escalating if this doesn't stop; and right now Israel is the one who can stop it (or take the first step to stop it) but doesn't seem to want to. So, what's next?
 
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Thaluikhain

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the way British civilians reacted towards their own goverment during the WWII's Blitz should be a good precedent on how the civilians feel about it
Without wanting to derail the thread, the situation in the UK in WW2 was, I believe, more complicated. Though a lot of that was which suburbs got funding for air defences and bomb shelters and the like.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
If you look back through this thread you'll see that I've condemned Hamas as well. Whereas you, here and now, are the one acting as if its one-sided, and that one side should be largely absolved and the responsibility for both sides' actions should rest on the other.
What do you think my position is?
 

Gergar12

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What do you think my position is?
You can't build a house in the West Bank, the settlements are almost everywhere, and the IDF is bombing Gaza. In 20 years people will see the current-day IDF as a more recent South Africa.