Controversial Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Series Comes to an End

Jamcie Kerbizz

New member
Feb 27, 2013
302
0
0
maninahat said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
maninahat said:
[snip]
You haven't demonstrated how Lewis' law is circular logic, you've instead given an alternative example of circular logic that doesn't represent the meaning of Lewis' law. Lewis was simply pointing out the irony of how criticisms of sexism attract sexist remarks. These sexist remarks simply add to the proof that there is sexism in the first place; if there wasn't any sexism, then people wouldn't leave self-demonstrating sexist remarks.
You make an assertation which you leave unsubstantiated, what for? I can just reply with, no you're wrong - and it would hold as much merit as what you wrote.
I simply used proof by contradiction. You can't rationaly construct an argument like Lewi's did. Assumption that any opposition to action justifies the action. I'll give you even simplier example:
I take your wallet,
you punch me in the face,
I tell officer that me taking your wallet was justified because... you punched me and your wallet is necessary to take ammends from,
for my bleeding nose.

Do you really expect that officer would go with 'Oh ok then, carry on!'
What you did there is still a distinct thing from what Lewis is saying.

Here's a more accurate comparison:

I complain that people punching others in the face.
Someone hears what I say and punches me in the face.
The fact that I've been punched in the face demonstrates my complaint that people are punching others in the face.

And in the case of Lewis (or Sarkeesian), its just as simple:
She writes an article complaining that there is sexism.
People read her article and leave sexist remarks.
The fact that people have left sexist remarks proves her observation of there being sexism.

Punching me in the face may have been overreaction and unjustified, but setting up an argument that it
justifies stealing your wallet is just an attempt at very poor circular logic.
So to work this back towards Lewis or Sarkeesian, it now sounds like you are arguing that no, even though the sexism feminists are subjected to is bad, it totally doesn't justify them writing about sexism.
Congratulations on proving yourself wrong with your own example.
Now read it. Wait, something's wrong. Lewis said justifies not demonstrates. Here lets correct it. Oh no, circular logic happens :S

Either way. I am pretty sure that what you 'argue' is what Helen ment. Still she was wrong even on that.
Going by your example, with this little mischevious ;) 'demonstrate' misquote. You can't derrive anything from it either. Only that someone punched you in the face. You COULD be right (people are punching others in the faces and this is one of these people)
BUT
It could also be that this 'someone' just heard you, thought it's a cool idea and punched you. Had you never gave the idea nothing would have happen. At this point both hypothesis are as good. Thus cherry picking one without substance of any proof to back it, is irrational.

Got it now? There isn't logical way to defend Lewis' lapse.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Apr 14, 2020
5,184
173
68
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
lionsprey said:
i would just like to remind everyone that she is only a thing because people pay attention to her.
It's true but not accurate. I mean people like her and Jack Thompson aren't the only ever in existance, which tried to prowl on gaming and scam out few bucks. However, only these 2 drummed up sufficient mass media support to make money out of it and garner public attention. Ok maybe there were more but 'computer games are training murderers' and 'computer games are training misogynists' are the 2 largest con campaigns, which mass media funneled as 'worth discussing because theses are such huge problems... and besides... think of the children!' :D
In his first lawsuit, Jack Thompson SUED the developers of Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstein, Redneck Rampage, Nightmare Creatures, MechWarrior, and Resident Evil, the makers and distributors of Natural Born Killers and The Basketball Diaries, and two porn sites for $33 million. You might as well say she is Hitler reborn as a girl, and it wouldn't be any less hyperbolic.
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
8,687
0
0

Nothing draws out the commenters like an Anita topic/article. :^)

On the one hand I'm glad the show is over because it's just one less flame-war bait topic clogging up forums. On the other hand, with her starting up a new series I'm sure it'll just be the same shit, different subject.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

New member
Feb 27, 2013
302
0
0
CaitSeith said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
srpilha said:
snip
The first video on Troy's channel is 6 months old. Where was he in 2014 when the flames started to engulf the topic?
At work with Disney :D under contract clause to not engage in things like that.
He explains it in one of first videos.

It's a shame that HRs do things like that but lets be honest, I worked for few much, much smaller companies and in all contracts there were always clauses that penalize you for any direct or indirect harm to company's brand.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

New member
Feb 27, 2013
302
0
0
CaitSeith said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
lionsprey said:
i would just like to remind everyone that she is only a thing because people pay attention to her.
It's true but not accurate. I mean people like her and Jack Thompson aren't the only ever in existance, which tried to prowl on gaming and scam out few bucks. However, only these 2 drummed up sufficient mass media support to make money out of it and garner public attention. Ok maybe there were more but 'computer games are training murderers' and 'computer games are training misogynists' are the 2 largest con campaigns, which mass media funneled as 'worth discussing because theses are such huge problems... and besides... think of the children!' :D
In his first lawsuit, Jack Thompson SUED the developers of Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstein, Redneck Rampage, Nightmare Creatures, MechWarrior, and Resident Evil, the makers and distributors of Natural Born Killers and The Basketball Diaries, and two porn sites for $33 million. You might as well say she is Hitler reborn as a girl, and it wouldn't be any less hyperbolic.
Kind of confused here. Why would you call her that? They both sought money on false premise anchored in computer gaming. Yes, one spun the scam via legal actions, the other via social media and crowdfunding but intent and targets were pretty much the same and not in any way hyperbolic. So what is your point again?
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Apr 14, 2020
5,184
173
68
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
CaitSeith said:
In his first lawsuit, Jack Thompson SUED the developers of Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstein, Redneck Rampage, Nightmare Creatures, MechWarrior, and Resident Evil, the makers and distributors of Natural Born Killers and The Basketball Diaries, and two porn sites for $33 million. You might as well say she is Hitler reborn as a girl, and it wouldn't be any less hyperbolic.
Kind of confused here. Why would you call her that? They both sought money on false premise anchored in computer gaming. Yes, one spun the scam via legal actions, the other via social media and crowdfunding but intent and targets were pretty much the same and not in any way hyperbolic. So what is your point again?
You have said how they are similiar. Let's see how they are different.

Looked for:
$6,000 in a kickstarter
vs.
$33 millions in a lawsuit

Stated intentions (their words):
5 videos exploring, analyzing and deconstructing some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games.
vs.
Hurt Hollywood. Hurt the video game industry. Hurt the sex porn sites.

Potential worst consecuences:
No videos, or people getting the wrong idea about games.
vs.
Game studios, film studios and websites closing.

Measurable results:
Goal in less than a day; almost $160,000 at the end of the kickstarter. 19 videos released in Youtube without plans of continuation.
vs.
Dismissal of court after 2 years of litigation. Followed by suing Take-Two Interactive, Sony and Wal-Mart for $246 million. It was just the second of many to come.
 

WeepingAngels

New member
May 18, 2013
1,722
0
0
CaitSeith said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
srpilha said:
snip
The first video on Troy's channel is 6 months old. Where was he in 2014 when the flames started to engulf the topic?
He was working on Disney's Infinity and wasn't in a position to speak out. Maybe you should watch a few of his videos before assuming he isn't worth listening to.
 

lSHaDoW-FoXl

New member
Jul 17, 2008
616
0
0
Hawki said:
All I see is someone applying feminist-themed critique to games. If that "pushes buttons," then some people need to take a long, hard look at themselves.
If you don't know how feminist-themed critiques pushes buttons then we may have lot to catch up on. So, to begin with here's the typical feminist sales pitches:

"Feminism is the radical notion that women should be treated like people"
"Feminism is about equality"
"If you're for womens' rights then you're a feminist"

At face value, there isn't anything wrong with feminism, and that's because the bad stuff comes later. We get to qualifiers for freedom of speech "I'm for freedom of speech but ______" and then we get to their ad hominem that usually conveniently fits into their exception. Now we fill in that blank and that "but ____" part becomes "But for when it's misogynistic"

and it's very, very, very often that I come across a feminist that does this. You see, they're not against freedom of speech. They're only against people abusing it and other people, they're against it when it's misogynistic. Now all they need to do is claim that X is misogynistic and bam. We've just had a feminism.

Another thing that's popular is presupposition. Now we go back to "Feminism is about equality" and their very typical use of sexism and preferential treatment towards women. They justify this mindset by arguing that women are treated worse than men, therefor the preferential treatment isn't so much about giving certain people more rights and more privileges but trying to level an unfair playing field because men control everything and sexism. If we're talking about someone who's really infected with the feminism then they'll say "patriarchy". Which, by the way, Anita has done.

Now, I'm not saying that women don't have unique problems and that men don't have a greater amount of leverage in certain institutions, but the way I typically see a feminist arguing these points is by throwing "sexism" and "patriarchy" around. Perhaps it's anecdotal, but I don't think I'm being unfair when this criticism isn't being thrown at single isolated random blog posts on the internet but popular youtubers who more or less represent feminism. For every single issue a woman deals with, there is typically a valid explanation that doesn't just boil down to people treating women like shit because they live in a patriarchal society that sees them as inferior people. Presuming that there's less women in the video games industry "because sexism" is about as viable as thinking there's less men therapists because that field is sexist towards them. Everything always leads to sexism or patriarchy. It always leads up to some reason for a feminist to complain about something in a way that is completely pretentious and insubstantial. If feminism didn't exist, I honestly think these discussions would go a lot smoother. Because instead of it being about arguing whether or not people are being sexist in their ideology or conduct we'd start with what could actually be done about something.
 

runic knight

New member
Mar 26, 2011
1,118
0
0
Good riddance. I'll echo the sentiments of those not defending her here as to why, but she was a terrible discussion maker and a worthless charlatan. While she may have had some half-points in her initial topics (things like gaming relying too heavily on trope-based character in general), her determination to force it into the political box she wanted to support greatly undercut any value to that. Furthermore, the way she managed and marketed the series, from it being spammed on 4chan, to the way she carefully manipulated comments to make it seem like only trolls were calling her shit out, to the way she was promoted by the media as a damsel in distress and that anyone opposed was misogynists all made the topic less about itself and more about her specific brand of cult of feminism. The videos themselves further revealed nothing but laziness and dishonesty. Be it her openly dishonest claims about games to support her point (such as when she talked about hitman), her misrepresentation and lying by omission (such as talking about GTA or Star Fox), the heavy implications that games contribute to train sexual assaults, or the open theft of youtuber lets plays. Add on to that her attempts to censor the internet itself and the fact she gets defended at all seems to be entirely related to political football rather than any actually worthwhile value in her.

One good thing, she revealed the madness that was McIntosh, and that was worth some laughs.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
34,927
1,577
118
One thing this topic brings up that has always confused me is that people will inevitably say "she's not extreme, she's bland by feminist standards" as if that's supposed to reassure us that she's reasonable. But all it really says is that feminism is a hotbed of wingnuts if their "bland" people are divisive "with us or against us, everything is always awful no matter what" with a poor grasp of research and no sense of proportion. I mean, how kooky do "real feminists" have to be to make someone as awful as Anita look mild?

But more OT: I thought she was done a while ago. It's not like she had actually been working on her series like she was supposed to be.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

New member
Feb 27, 2013
302
0
0
CaitSeith said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
CaitSeith said:
In his first lawsuit, Jack Thompson SUED the developers of Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstein, Redneck Rampage, Nightmare Creatures, MechWarrior, and Resident Evil, the makers and distributors of Natural Born Killers and The Basketball Diaries, and two porn sites for $33 million. You might as well say she is Hitler reborn as a girl, and it wouldn't be any less hyperbolic.
Kind of confused here. Why would you call her that? They both sought money on false premise anchored in computer gaming. Yes, one spun the scam via legal actions, the other via social media and crowdfunding but intent and targets were pretty much the same and not in any way hyperbolic. So what is your point again?
You have said how they are similiar. Let's see how they are different.

Looked for:
$6,000 in a kickstarter
vs.
$33 millions in a lawsuit

Stated intentions (their words):
5 videos exploring, analyzing and deconstructing some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games.
vs.
Hurt Hollywood. Hurt the video game industry. Hurt the sex porn sites.

Potential worst consecuences:
No videos, or people getting the wrong idea about games.
vs.
Game studios, film studios and websites closing.

Measurable results:
Goal in less than a day; almost $160,000 at the end of the kickstarter. 19 videos released in Youtube without plans of continuation.
vs.
Dismissal of court after 2 years of litigation. Followed by suing Take-Two Interactive, Sony and Wal-Mart for $246 million. It was just the second of many to come.
And? I still am confused what point you are trying to make. Is it that Anita is less successful? Less efficient?
I mean as con-artists they excelled differently but they are both notable and stand out from their peers, wouldn't you agree?

Perhaps Jack made more in cold cash but he didn't catapult himself in front of UN hearing (?) nor he hijacked narrative of huge social movement to a point where he is set for lifetime just giving lectures for people that follow that movement, telling them 'his story'.
On many level I would argue that Anita outdone Jack. And she isn't potentially done yet, while Jack is through.
 

fix-the-spade

New member
Feb 25, 2008
8,639
0
0
WeepingAngels said:
Best of luck to the talking head who makes lots of blanket statements but the people who called her out earned your insult, or did you mean 'keyboard warriors' as a compliment?

Anita went looking for trouble, found it by attacking gamers and it's the gamers who are the assholes?
Oh an insult to be sure, but one aimed at every side of the argument, not just the for and against.

Also, yes, a significant portion of the responders to tropes vs women were just arse holes, not feminists, not anti feminists, not even Social Justice Warriors, just plain old garden variety arse holes, they build up around any manufactured controversy like scale in a kettle.
 

the December King

Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,580
1
3
Marik2 said:
Wow and now people got active when this made news here
It's really just boredom

We've all already looked in on the pubes thread, and we were all just sitting on out thumbs after that.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,552
0
0
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Kind of confused here. Why would you call her that? They both sought money on false premise anchored in computer gaming. Yes, one spun the scam via legal actions, the other via social media and crowdfunding but intent and targets were pretty much the same and not in any way hyperbolic. So what is your point again?
I am just curious, how is it a "false premise" to examine video games from a specific ideological position?

Further, as far as I can tell you have to go through some serious mental hurdles to equate "crowd funding to make youtube videos" with "suing major entertainment companies to stop them from making games".
 

COMaestro

Vae Victis!
May 24, 2010
739
0
0
I didn't even realize this series was still going on. Once the whole GG crap finally died down, any mention of Anita seemed to go with it. And I was not saddened by that at all. I just didn't care to hear about whatever "outrageous" claim she was making on her newest video, which seemed to pop up for a while.

Good bye. Good riddance. Stay away from video games in the future so I don't have to avoid some of my preferred online haunts. Thanks.
 

Darmani

New member
Apr 26, 2010
231
0
0
Adam Jensen said:
News about actual video games come out and there's barely two pages of comments in days, unless it's some highly anticipated game like TES or Zelda etc. Yet we're already at page 3 discussing this hack and scam artist. And it's not like it's the first or 101st time. You want to know what's wrong with gaming culture? It's the fact that gamers care a lot more about meaningless drivel like this series of videos than they care about actual game news. Every time there's some shitty SJW video it gets more attention than gaming stuff that matters.
They are attacking us not advertising developments of untested product.
Of course preaching group condemnation to leaders approval gets more response!
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
Darmani said:
Adam Jensen said:
News about actual video games come out and there's barely two pages of comments in days, unless it's some highly anticipated game like TES or Zelda etc. Yet we're already at page 3 discussing this hack and scam artist. And it's not like it's the first or 101st time. You want to know what's wrong with gaming culture? It's the fact that gamers care a lot more about meaningless drivel like this series of videos than they care about actual game news. Every time there's some shitty SJW video it gets more attention than gaming stuff that matters.
They are attacking us not advertising developments of untested product.
Of course preaching group condemnation to leaders approval gets more response!
You know, as a gamer, I don't feel very attacked right now. So what's this whole "us" deal? Also, attacking us? How?
 

StatusNil

New member
Oct 5, 2014
534
0
0
totheendofsin said:
I would like to congratulate all the people who had needlessly hostile reactions to her

because you guys were the ones who fueled her relevance
Nope, her "relevance" is due to those highly Professional "GameJournos", who shilled the hell out of this charlatan from the very beginning. Can't resist a damsel in distress, those boys. Especially one ghostwritten by an aspirational figure like Johnny Full, the Pop Culture Dick himself.

It's just sad.