Court Shoots Down Bethesda's Scrolls Request

Femaref

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Macrobstar said:
Tharwen said:
HOW COULD THERE BE ANY OTHER OUTCOME YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT A WORD IT'S STUPID
Actually mojang tried to copyright a word, so in effect bethesda should have won is what your saying, which is true because they where only trying to protect their brand
They are trying to trademark a word in a certain scope of things related to the content of the game. Trademark - I don't you the words means what you think it does. There could easily be something "Scrolls" in a different scope. The point of trademarks is to prevent confusion of products in a certain scope, for example you remember that Edge thing? Where he wrote "Mirrors" and "Edge" in huge letters and between those "a game by" in freaking small letters? EA took him to court and won. Imagine, if we wouldn't have trademark laws in place to prevent that, people might be confused and buy the other product instead of the established one.

Back to Elder Scrolls/Scrolls. The point in that case is simple - Bethesda/Zenimax need to sue Mojang, otherwise they'd set a precedent which would enable others to attack their trademark. They don't even need to win, if the court finds that the content of "Scrolls" is way different than the content of "The Elder Scrolls" and rules in Mojangs favour, this doesn't change a thing about the Elder Scrolls trademark, as Zenimax defended it. Now however, if Mojang would make the boxart appear similar to the one of for example, Skyrim, then Zenimax had more leverage, as this would be an attack on the trademark again.

If they wouldn't have sued Mojang, they would be able to do exactly that, and might even get through with it. Bad business practise to say the least, but possible.
 

seraphy

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Chelsea O said:
so the maker of a shit game won and a great series will suffer for it,titles in the elder scrolls series will likely not be allowed to carry "the elder scrolls" title cause now shit-head mojang owns the word scrolls.
No need to be so dramatic.

This does exactly nothing for bethesda, they have trademarked The Elder Scrolls, and they aren't going to lose that trademark whatever happens in this case. And Mojang doesn't own word Scrolls but he is allowed to call his name like that, for now anyway. Which indeed is quite reasonable, bethesda shouldn't be allowed to deny anyone naming their game like that just because they have trademarked a phrase that has scrolls in it.

And seriously who cares about "The elder scrolls" anyway, no one cares about that phrase, Morrowind by itself is more well known and more valuable ip than The Elder Scrolls is.
 

Baresark

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Ragsnstitches said:
Baresark said:
Ragsnstitches said:
You seem like a reasonable and informed kind of guy/girl. I have a question for you, something that is bothering me. Maybe you covered it in your post already, and if you have, I apologize. Does the company who loses the case have to change their trademark?

So, if Bethesda/Zenimax loses, do they lose the right to use "The Elder Scrolls" in future games? Or if Mojang loses, do they lose the right to use "Scrolls"? I'm not a lawyer but to me it seems like their has to be something at stake in order for their to be a legal case about it.

Or does Mojang simply have to prove that there is not any confusion and then both get to keep moving forward with there respective trademarks, which would be recognized as not similar enough to matter?

It seems to me this matter that Bethesda/Zenimax, "must sue in order to protect", would be voided altogether unless Bethesda/Zenimax felt that there would be other aspects of the game that would be similar. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks
I'm not too sure about how the results of the case will unfold.

What's at stake is primarily on Zenimax's field. If Zeni does NOT contest the case, someone somewhere at some time could argue, though unlikely, that The Elder Scrolls Trademark is weak and that they can use it for their own gain... that's probably not right, but the risk is something akin to the strength of the trademark in the eyes of the law... it would be like if Coca Cola had to accept their brand (label, name, colour scheme etc) is no longer protected and everyone and their mother starts copying them in order to make money off of the famous label, because they can.

I know that Mojang won't lose the rights to their game, but might have to change the name. Not a subtitle, but a full name change. He could keep scroll in the title if affixes something to it like "Scrolls of War" or "Scrolls of Time" or whatever is thematically appropriate as long as it's not Scrolls or "Ancient/Weathered/Seasoned Scrolls". I read somewhere that the context and language (grammatical correctness) used in making a trademark is VERY important, but I'm not sure exactly how.

Worst case would be a "rephrasing" of his trademark, so that it doesn't encompass so much stuff (you should google what he had trademarked under scrolls... like he was trying to own the word). Still, Mojang can't lose their game to Zeni, just the name.

In this event, a distinction between the 2 labels is created by act of a name change (or whatever is deemed appropriate by the courts). Mojang loses out on their title, or wiggle room for the franchise, but it's a minor thing for a fledgling product. Zenimax proves their Trademark is strong and can use this case against other infringers in the future, if it's appropriate.

If Mojang win nothing physically changes, but a clear official distinction will be established between the 2 trademarks, so the 2 trademarks can then exist independently without conflicts (as long as notch doesn't do something stupid like call his next game "Scrolls: Skyrim" or Bethesda make a card based game based on The Elder Scrolls). Zenimax will just accept that Scrolls exist as another game, but confident in the fact it's distinguished from their product and their Trademark has been used actively in court which prevents it from being "diluted" or weakened.

A rephrasing of his trademarks might still be needed, even if he wins... it's just ludicrously wide reaching.

Now my research was surface research at best, I am no lawyer and a lot of the nitty gritty goes way over my head... I can't fully or accurately tell you about the risks for Mojang or Zenimax over this case. All I know is that in Trademark laws, a possible infringement must be confronted, or your trademark might be seen as weak and not worth protecting from public use. Essentially making a brand or label part of the public domain.

TL/DR:

Yes the name "Scrolls" is at risk for mojang, but it is minor compared to what COULD be at risk for Zenimax and Bethesda, if this did not go to court.

It's a lot of hearsay, paranoia and speculation frankly, but Zenimax is sitting on a multi-million dollar franchise and would do wisely not to let their guard down. Some people are just scumbags and would walk all over them if they could.

Their is no physical gain for Zenimax, just confidence in their trademark (win or lose) and the loss for mojang in the worst case scenario is superficial and maybe a little damaged pride. He will recover without a doubt.

WITH ALL THAT SAID:

I think notch will win, but will need to compromise all the same. His Trademark of the word "Scrolls" is just so vast it's silly. He didn't need such a far reaching trademark for his game and can always just make new trademarks if he wants to expand his franchise.
Thank you for the fantastic explanation. It cleared up, what amounted to, a few inconsistencies from what I understood, and also what other people don't seem to understand.
 

lacktheknack

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Ragsnstitches said:
Was this Case necessary? Yes. Was Zeni in the wrong? No. Will they win? I doubt it, if common sense prevails. Is the Law a haven for common sense? No.
This seems like a pretty good summation. I'm keeping it.
 

Wieke

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Mar 30, 2009
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Andy Chalk said:
Wieke said:
You may want to change the news's title, cause it's a wee bit misleading.
How so?
Cause to me the title on it's own looks like Mojang won the whole deal, instead of just a minor victory in a continuing struggle. I'm just saying it would have been better if that part of the story was also reflected in the title. Though it may be hard getting the entire message in a short title.
 

lacktheknack

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Tharwen said:
Macrobstar said:
Tharwen said:
HOW COULD THERE BE ANY OTHER OUTCOME YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT A WORD IT'S STUPID
Actually mojang tried to copyright a word, so in effect bethesda should have won is what your saying, which is true because they where only trying to protect their brand
No they didn't, for two reasons.

The first is that this is a trademark case, and the second is that Mojang never did anything to create or maintain a trademark on the name.
Uhm...

What?

But after looking at Mojang's "Scrolls" patent application, I'm not so sure the case is as black and white as many would seem to believe. Specifically this part, referring to Mojang's claim of trademark on the use of "scrolls" for "radio and television programs and shows":

The application covers:

Entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet and other remote communications device; internet games (non downloadable); organising of games; games (not downloadable) played via a global computer network; education and entertainment services in the form of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs and shows; preparation, editing and production of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs; entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet, mobile telephone and other remote communications device.

http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight

I'm chalking it up as a naive mistake on Notch's part, but he DID pull an epic dick move towards Zenimax (even if by accident).
 

veloper

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"the court ruled in favor of Mojang, saying that while there are similarities between The Elder Scrolls franchise and Scrolls, there are also significant differences, and the intended audience for these games are likely to be aware of these differences and, more to the point, unlikely to confuse them."

So gamers aren't total idiots in the eyes of the swedish court. A good thing this case is held in a western european country.
This was expected, but still a small relief. The rest will hopefully go just as smoothly.
 

seraphy

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Caramel Frappe said:
Not saying everyone who's siding with Notch is like this, but every post that truly supports Mojang's case seems to discard Bethesda. Let me ask you all this: What if Notch sued Bethesda because their next coming game was going to be called The Elder Scrolls: Minecraft? Would everyone feel the same, or change their views otherwise?

Personally, I do not like Notch's attitude in this. He seems to be way to happy in a childish manner
"We can keep using the name 'Scrolls'. ZeniMax/Bethesda can still appeal the ruling, but I'm very happy. :D"
Him Tweeting this just bothers me. I don't think badly of Notch for doing so, but it feels like they're rubbing the victory in Bethesda's face spite that it was the lawyers who were engaged with this whole issue instead of the people working for Bethesda, those who only dealt with the game's developments with no say in the suing altogether.
That is not very good example now is it?

Obviously I would think that Notch is perfectly withing his rights to sue Bethesda in that case, because they would be quite clearly ripping off his game and there would be possibility that customers would actually confuse between the games.

Better example here would be be if Bethesda named their game The Elder Scrolls: Mine.
In that case if Notch sued, in my opinion he would have no case and his lawsuit would be completely frivolous, and I would side with Bethesda. And this is how I see this Scrolls lawsuit as well.

And I think he is allowed to rup his victory a bit here, he wasn't the aggressor in this case after all.
 

AlotFirst

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Wow, half of the posters in this thread do not seem to realize that Mojang offered to change Scrolls' name and drop the trademark.

Zenimax refused, and continued to sue them. So yeah, Zenimax deserves to lose this lawsuit.
 

duchaked

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good job Zenimax, now Bethesda continues to lose positive views in the gaming public :/
 

Tharwen

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lacktheknack said:
Tharwen said:
Macrobstar said:
Tharwen said:
HOW COULD THERE BE ANY OTHER OUTCOME YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT A WORD IT'S STUPID
Actually mojang tried to copyright a word, so in effect bethesda should have won is what your saying, which is true because they where only trying to protect their brand
No they didn't, for two reasons.

The first is that this is a trademark case, and the second is that Mojang never did anything to create or maintain a trademark on the name.
Uhm...

What?

But after looking at Mojang's "Scrolls" patent application, I'm not so sure the case is as black and white as many would seem to believe. Specifically this part, referring to Mojang's claim of trademark on the use of "scrolls" for "radio and television programs and shows":

The application covers:

Entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet and other remote communications device; internet games (non downloadable); organising of games; games (not downloadable) played via a global computer network; education and entertainment services in the form of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs and shows; preparation, editing and production of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs; entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet, mobile telephone and other remote communications device.
Oh, whoops. I appear to be wrong. Sorry.
 

Jaime_Wolf

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Caramel Frappe said:
.. Most of these comments I see, are people cheering with open arms for Notch while they bash on Bethesda to a point one person actually commented about spitting on them.. I find that to be awfully ridiculous guys.

Look, I like Notch's game Minecraft, it's a very excellent game. However, Bethesda isn't an evil corporation trying to stomp the little guy. Besides that Mojang isn't so little at all anymore, this post sums up the whole case very well:

Ranorak said:
The point of this whole issue is that Notch filed a trademark on the word scrolls, and when won, mean that HE would own the trademark of that word in any "Fantasy Based Video game" and not only that, but radio, tv-shows and even t-shirts as well.

This would mean that if Bethesda let this happen, Notch can effectively demand that they change their title.

Not only that, but even if Notch and Bethesda were to say "Eh, I know you won't screw us, and you know we won't screw you. So lets ignore this.", then that would mean that other companies would use that as a legal example and thus could Trademark "The Elder Browls" Because Bethesda is okay with such things.
I'm a huge Bethesda fan, but I am not siding with them because I love their games. I'm siding because of this case. Every person who's siding with Notch ether believes there is no harm done after all of this, or that they side with Notch because "Oh no! Bethesda is suing them. The monsters- I am going to protest against them. I'm going to not buy any of their games like Skyrim! Most of all, I am going to laugh when Bethesda loses because they're truly horrible."

Not saying everyone who's siding with Notch is like this, but every post that truly supports Mojang's case seems to discard Bethesda. Let me ask you all this: What if Notch sued Bethesda because their next coming game was going to be called The Elder Scrolls: Minecraft? Would everyone feel the same, or change their views otherwise?

Personally, I do not like Notch's attitude in this. He seems to be way to happy in a childish manner
"We can keep using the name 'Scrolls'. ZeniMax/Bethesda can still appeal the ruling, but I'm very happy. :D"
Him Tweeting this just bothers me. I don't think badly of Notch for doing so, but it feels like they're rubbing the victory in Bethesda's face spite that it was the lawyers who were engaged with this whole issue instead of the people working for Bethesda, those who only dealt with the game's developments with no say in the suing altogether.
Mojang offered to drop the trademark and even add a subtitle to the game's name. So that argument really doesn't hold any water.

And he's happy because the legal dickery got resolved in a slightly reasonable manner. Even the people at Bethesda were unhappy about this lawsuit. It was a legal department thing with Zenimax proving that they are trying to enforce their copyright so others can't use this to invalidate the trademark by showing that Zenimax doesn't make reasonable attempts to enforce it. There is nothing wrong with being happy that something turned out exactly the way virtually everyone wanted it to.

Also, a better parallel would be if Bethesda released The Elder Scrolls: Dragoncraft. Somehow, I don't see Mojang getting up in arms over that.
 

Macrobstar

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Tharwen said:
Macrobstar said:
Tharwen said:
HOW COULD THERE BE ANY OTHER OUTCOME YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT A WORD IT'S STUPID
Actually mojang tried to copyright a word, so in effect bethesda should have won is what your saying, which is true because they where only trying to protect their brand
No they didn't, for two reasons.

The first is that this is a trademark case, and the second is that Mojang never did anything to create or maintain a trademark on the name.
Well you said copyright, and yes mojang was the one who tried to trademark the word scrolls, thats what the case is about
 

Susurrus

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kiri2tsubasa said:
Win or lose, Zenimax protected their trademark.


How am I supposed to type the second part captcha? Seriously, tell me.
Like this: T(ξ1 ,
The symbol you're complaining about is a letter from the Greek alphabet (specifically 'Xi').

Although I did have to load up Word to do that, so it probably shouldn't be in there.
 

Mediteral

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What don't understand is why the "scrolls" needs to be trademarked in the first place, Why any word needs to be trademarked for that matter?