Cyberpunk 2077 Review thread - Umm....

CriticalGaming

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IIRC from the extra features/videos on the game disc of Heavenly Sword, it was the only game at an E3 that featured a female protagonist. We also know the stories of publishers not allowing female protags because previous games with them didn't sell as well. I even believe Naughty Dog had to fight to get Ellie on the cover of TLOU. How can you say there wasn't an issue with women and minority representation is games? There's probably still is an issue just because a lot of current game characters originated from those times so you'll still see less minority characters (based on general population percentages) just due to that. It's like how most comic book characters were white men because of times when all your Supermans and Batmans originated from. It's not just a current issue but a systemic one.
Publishers may have done that, but that certainly didn't stop games from featuring playable main female characters. And it clearly isn't a systemic issue, because female characters have been prevalent since the early days of gaming. Some game ideas might have been turned away because of a female lead, but that clearly wasn't all of them nor was it a mentality that stuck around for very long considering the continual rise in available female playable characters. Systemic is one of those buzz words that people like to use to suggest that the whole fabric of society should be torn down and reassembled in what they perceive as the "right" way. When this simply isn't the case, and is simply an excuse and frankly it isn't even an excuse that should ever be applied to a novelty/luxury thing like entertainment.

Another argument I don't like is the one that people like to make about identifying about a character because that character shares gentiles with the person. If you can't identify with a person simply because they have a dick hanging between their legs or tits on their chest, then you have sociopathical problems. You should be able to connect and empathize with a character because they are human, not because they are a boy or girl. Which is also why I don't really like the crybaby argument on either side. These neckbeards in the GTA rants, or the feminists complaining that Call of Duty stars another Dudebro.

On a side note, I find it interesting that they also only ever complain about fictional games. I've never seen anyone complain to 2KGames about making yet another NBA game when they could have made a WNBA game instead. Why is that? How come no one is made that they sports games don't have any women in them other than the sexual objectified cheerleaders on the sidelines whom the football players use as trophies for their gratification of winning a ballgame?
 

Phoenixmgs

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And Naughty Dog themselves are guilty of this too, certainly in the first three Uncharted games, where all the good guys are white Americans and the bad guys/duplicitous individuals are either British, South American, or wherever the hell Lazaravic is from. And the original concept art for Abby depicted her as a black woman, which would've made her the first playable character of color in a Naughty Dog game... and then they decided to just make her boring and white again. I guess at least we got to play as Chloe, who is half Indian (though I don't think anyone would've guessed that from the previous games) and has an Australian accent. Baby steps, right?

EDIT: I think the original concept art for Chloe was her being black too. So yeah...
I'm not saying Naughty Dog are some angels, just pointing out that even they ran into some issues when Sony is one of the more open publishers.

It's kinda hard to go game-by-game and say this protag was a white guy because it was forced vs it's just what they wanted to do creatively. Though when the numbers are so one-sided, it's becomes obvious.


Publishers may have done that, but that certainly didn't stop games from featuring playable main female characters. And it clearly isn't a systemic issue, because female characters have been prevalent since the early days of gaming. Some game ideas might have been turned away because of a female lead, but that clearly wasn't all of them nor was it a mentality that stuck around for very long considering the continual rise in available female playable characters. Systemic is one of those buzz words that people like to use to suggest that the whole fabric of society should be torn down and reassembled in what they perceive as the "right" way. When this simply isn't the case, and is simply an excuse and frankly it isn't even an excuse that should ever be applied to a novelty/luxury thing like entertainment.

Another argument I don't like is the one that people like to make about identifying about a character because that character shares gentiles with the person. If you can't identify with a person simply because they have a dick hanging between their legs or tits on their chest, then you have sociopathical problems. You should be able to connect and empathize with a character because they are human, not because they are a boy or girl. Which is also why I don't really like the crybaby argument on either side. These neckbeards in the GTA rants, or the feminists complaining that Call of Duty stars another Dudebro.

On a side note, I find it interesting that they also only ever complain about fictional games. I've never seen anyone complain to 2KGames about making yet another NBA game when they could have made a WNBA game instead. Why is that? How come no one is made that they sports games don't have any women in them other than the sexual objectified cheerleaders on the sidelines whom the football players use as trophies for their gratification of winning a ballgame?
Stopping games from having female protags and making it overly difficult to do so are 2 different things. Black Panther originated in the 1960s, that doesn't mean black comic book characters were coming out in accordance to their population percentages.

I couldn't agree more with complaining about that bullshit.

Probably because the WNBA isn't popular enough. I believe in tennis, women get the higher ratings, and women are featured in the main tennis video game series, which looks to be AO Tennis...?
 
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CriticalGaming

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Probably because the WNBA isn't popular enough. I believe in tennis, women get the higher ratings, and women are featured in the main tennis video game series, which looks to be AO Tennis...?
And the one woman in NASCAR is featuring in the NASCAR game, to be fair. But yeah, you know i think we are overall on the same page for the most part.
 
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So yeah I gotta say my general thoughts on cyberpunk are......oh I clearly ...I walked into the wrong thread. I'll uh..uh I'll just see myself out.
No need to hide or feel ashamed. I look forward to hearing another perspective that does not stray off topic.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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How is that any different than the male characters that follow the same attitudes, body types, visual designs, etc etc etc. It's called power fantasy for a reason and it doesn't matter the sex of the avatar the player is controlling.

That's true equality if you ask me. If the standard male character has to be a hunk of a man in perfect six-pack ab shape. Then it's only fair that the women also have the be the pinnacle of attractiveness. Right? Isn't that equal?
Didn't we have pages and pages and pages of argument over whether or not having a ripped hunk of a woman with six pack abs was realistic? Because we had pages and pages and pages of argument over whether or not having a ripped hunk of a woman with six pack abs was realistic
 
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CriticalGaming

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I mean, that's a lot closer to what I'd want to buy it for then $60-70, but it'd still be broken so pass for now.

I'll check back in 2022(if we're still alive by then) to see if they've made notable improvements.
I mean by the time the game is conpletely fixed and worth your money, it will be probably closer to 20 bucks.

If you havent bought it yet then dont and wait for articles of "hey it is good now" to come out before considering the game.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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Ah yes the typical goal post shifting. The moment anyone shoves proof that the female character works and has worked since the beginning of gaming history, people like you wanna shift the goal post back, adding all these extra limitations on what "counts".

Ok let's go back and use your criteria. These must be playable characters and cannot be part of a large roster. Fine, here we go.

Samus Aran - Metroid
Jill Valentine - Resident Evil 3
Yuna, Paine, and Rikku - Final Fantasy X-2 (part of an ensamble but consisting of all women so this should count)
Jade - Beyond Good and Evil
Faith - Wet
Faith - Mirror's Edge
Lara Croft - Tomb Raider
Bayonetta - Bayonetta 1, 2, and probably 3
Countless custom Female protagonists
Joanna Dark - Perfect Dark
Mrs. Pacman
Rayne - Bloodrayne
Sera - Final Fantasy 13-2 (she is the main character and is partnered with monster pokemon and one other dude who is a minor character. so I'm counting this)
Shion - Xenosaga 1,2, and 3 (Main character in the RPG. Still counts)
Clarie Redfield - Resident Evil Code Veronica

So basically almost everyone on my original list counts, only removing the fighting game characters because that somehow doesn't count. Except.....
The Dead or Alive Cast (while part of a larger roster, the women are the main characters in the game's core story)

So I don't know what to tell you. I guess you can make up some other bullshit as to why these characters still don't count. But that only serves to invalidate the history of women in video games which seems a bit counterproductive to me.
I was reminded of this old PS1 game and sequel I played whose title escaped me, so did a search and hot damn...look at all these pre-PS3 female protagonists-


Btw it was the Fear Effect series. Parasite Eve was another big one.
 

CriticalGaming

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Didn't we have pages and pages and pages of argument over whether or not having a ripped hunk of a woman with six pack abs was realistic? Because we had pages and pages and pages of argument over whether or not having a ripped hunk of a woman with six pack abs was realistic
We did. But the argument of realistism is different that the argument of representation wouldn't you agree? This comment was merely replying to Ear's remark about the standard body shape which isn't exclusive to female characters.

These discussions are similar sure, but different regardless.
 

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I mean by the time the game is conpletely fixed and worth your money, it will be probably closer to 20 bucks.

If you havent bought it yet then dont and wait for articles of "hey it is good now" to come out before considering the game.
That's the plan. I got plenty of other shit to play in the meantime.



Stop looking at me like that, Spooky Moon! I'll get to you when I'm damn well ready.
 
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Eacaraxe

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We did. But the argument of realistism is different that the argument of representation wouldn't you agree? This comment was merely replying to Ear's remark about the standard body shape which isn't exclusive to female characters.

These discussions are similar sure, but different regardless.
Straight talk. What do you expect of people who design women characters overwhelmingly in phenotypes possessed by less than 20% of the female population, call it "diversity", then criticize phenotypes possessed by over 60% of the female population as unrealistic? Who call average Western cup sizes unrealistic, oversexualized, and exaggerated, then possess the temerity to accuse others of body-shaming while laying claim to body-positivity?

Then in an incredible display of unawareness of how the human body merely exists, turn around and unilaterally declare one of the unhealthiest and dangerous things a human being can do to themselves short of literal suicide a commanding height of women's representation and inclusivity in game design? Oh, sure Abby's character design is based on a Real Life Woman! ...just never mind how that woman's a world-class professional athlete, the source images were taken on peak days and after prep for photoshoots and performances, and the woman upon whom Abby was based has herself spoken about the rigors, ups, and downs of on-season dieting.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Straight talk. What do you expect of people who design women characters overwhelmingly in phenotypes possessed by less than 20% of the female population, call it "diversity", then criticize phenotypes possessed by over 60% of the female population as unrealistic? Who call average Western cup sizes unrealistic, oversexualized, and exaggerated, then possess the temerity to accuse others of body-shaming while laying claim to body-positivity?

Then in an incredible display of unawareness of how the human body merely exists, turn around and unilaterally declare one of the unhealthiest and dangerous things a human being can do to themselves short of literal suicide a commanding height of women's representation and inclusivity in game design? Oh, sure Abby's character design is based on a Real Life Woman! ...just never mind how that woman's a world-class professional athlete, the source images were taken on peak days and after prep for photoshoots and performances, and the woman upon whom Abby was based has herself spoken about the rigors, ups, and downs of on-season dieting.
The biggest problem with all of that is that Character design is NOT "make a real person". Just like you don't see many differences in the body types of A-list movie stars. There is a way that characters are designed that is not realistic and it's not meant to be, because they are characters.

And if you look up nutrition facts around the "super hero" body, most people will tell you that the kind of Captain America Physique that you see is extremely unhealthy. Which is why you see Abby's body double talking about the differences between the times she is "show ready" and not. Hell there was an Entertainment article about Jason Mamoa in which someone took a candid of him with a little bit of a pot belly. Which is what he is supposed to do. The body needs to fat a bit of fat with it and cannot be in super hero shape 100% of the time, so actors will often put on weight when not filming and lose it for a shoot. That isn't to say that they gain unhealthy amounts of weight either, but there are fluctuations.

None of that is a reasonable arguement about the design of fiction characters in video games. It all boils down to the fantasy of which you are playing. And in terms of video gaming, people almost always prefer to play "beautiful" characters while designers also prefer to design beautiful characters. Beauty, equals health, and health equals "hero", which is why the heroes of comics, movies, and video games are often the perfect looking man or woman facing off against ugly monsters.

You are right though, there is an incredibly hypocrisy in which these people will claim that body-shaming is evil while they directly body-sham people who are in fantastic shape. The reason for this is because getting into shape is hard, and it is a also easier to be a fatass and therefore people seek validation that it is okay to be lazy and fat. That's why the body positivity movement is a thing and for no other reason. It's fine if you want to enjoy your McDonald's and don't want to be healthy, that's your choice and you have the right to make it. But other people also have the right to not find that sort of body attractive. And this also applies to the extreme opposite end. It's your choice to be Arnold Schwartzenegger, but it is also not my fault that i don't find Abby attractive.
 
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Samtemdo8

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Samus Aran - Metroid
Jill Valentine - Resident Evil 3
Yuna, Paine, and Rikku - Final Fantasy X-2 (part of an ensamble but consisting of all women so this should count)
Jade - Beyond Good and Evil
Faith - Wet
Faith - Mirror's Edge
Lara Croft - Tomb Raider
Bayonetta - Bayonetta 1, 2, and probably 3
Countless custom Female protagonists
Joanna Dark - Perfect Dark
Mrs. Pacman
Rayne - Bloodrayne
Sera - Final Fantasy 13-2 (she is the main character and is partnered with monster pokemon and one other dude who is a minor character. so I'm counting this)
Shion - Xenosaga 1,2, and 3 (Main character in the RPG. Still counts)
Clarie Redfield - Resident Evil Code Veronica
I like to add one more and one I think is all but forgotten but by people who grew up in the 90s, Regina from Dino Crisis

Capcom was already making Female playable protagonists before it was cool.
 

CriticalGaming

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I like to add one more and one I think is all but forgotten but by people who grew up in the 90s, Regina from Dino Crisis

Capcom was already making Female playable protagonists before it was cool.
Dino Crisis was dope, they should totally remake it.

Also Parasite Eve had 3 games featuring Aya Brea as the main character on the Ps1 and PSP.

I mean there are a shitload and the harder you think about it, the more annoying the cry's of "ThErE aRe No FeMaLe GaMe LeAdS!!!!" become, because it's obviously ridiculous.
 
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Samtemdo8

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Dino Crisis was dope, they should totally remake it.

Also Parasite Eve had 3 games featuring Aya Brea as the main character on the Ps1 and PSP.

I mean there are a shitload and the harder you think about it, the more annoying the cry's of "ThErE aRe No FeMaLe GaMe LeAdS!!!!" become, because it's obviously ridiculous.
Again, they'll probably go with the excuse of:

"They are too sexualized for eye-candy so it doesn't count"

I just think its a matter of relevancy. These characters existed in the Pre-Social Media era of Gaming.
 

CriticalGaming

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Again, they'll probably go with the excuse of:

"They are too sexualized for eye-candy so it doesn't count"

I just think its a matter of relevancy. These characters existed in the Pre-Social Media era of Gaming.
I mean Houseman actually made a good point, that back in the day nobody actually gave a shit who the game character was if the game was good. It wasn't until the whole social media feminism movement came about that it became an artificially big deal, because these people just nitpicked the games that would best showcase their point but even then they would leave out much of the context simply to validate the point.

It's that skewing of the information that upset long time gamers who've been playing as Samus, Clarie, and Lara for ages that were like, "What the fuck around you even on about?"