Dark Souls isn't an RPG

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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Dark Souls is like DnD but with the role-playing taken out; thus, Dark Souls is not an RPG because it doesn't have role-playing.

EyeReaper said:
Reminds me of all those "Mass effect 2/3 are not real rpgs" threads
People that say Mass Effect 2/3 are not RPGs are just ignorant. Just because you shoot stuff and your aiming skill comes into play doesn't turn it into a shooter. Mass Effect's core experience throughout the series is the role-playing and that makes Mass Effect 2/3 RPGs, not shooters.
 

Savagezion

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grimner said:
Savagezion said:
If it plays like Demon Souls, I would agree with Mr. Dizazta probably more than someone saying it is an RPG. The only thing RPG-y about Demon Souls was character equiptment and levels. CoD has both of those. The gameplay of Demon Souls is based on exact timing similar to QTE's without screen prompts. While not exactly like QTE's in the sense that there isn't only one combination that is viable - but exact timing of presses is the key and there is no flex on that. No "spray and pray" or button spam style 'tactics'. The game's atmosphere and story is basically "How long can you survive while we try to kill you? No matter how long you do, you're doomed."
Can't say I agree with the DS games having QTEs. QTEs, as they stand are usually either of the "press x not to die variety" or "press X to execute", and are usually used within contextual cutscenes or as a way to finish off an enemy by nipping at his health enough to earn an execution animation. In both cases, usually player agency is being taken away from you. It kind of made sense when God of War used it as it was aiming for "cinematic" goals that the PS2 just could not pull off (and so, they'd give you the illusion of control over what was happening by having a big "X" glow while a golem was being maimed by Kratos, and not you), and it's still kind of excusable in GoW because for the most part those games still require a fair degree of skill and player agency to go through. As opposed to say, Resident Evil 6, where the QTEs are just commands for the game to keep playing itself.

But I digress, the reason why I can't see how DS have QTEs is in the mere fact that you can go through the game without pulling them off once. There's no "need" for them, and even when you choose to go for them, they test your reflexes and ability to read the enemy's attacks in the same way that many an arcade game did in the past. The only thing being shared then is the timing. It helps to know exaclty when to press L2 to parry, the same way it helps to know where to stand to spam that cool AoE attack. In my view, that's just turning those attacks of opportunity that were so instrumental in D&D games as something that's skill based.

OT: I'd say if Diablo can be considered an RPG, then so can Dark Souls. Diablo is basically "choose class, go in dungeon, click click click click, level up, upgrade skills, gain loot, become stronger to go into next dungeon to rinse and repeat". There's a lot of that incorporated mechanically into dark Souls. You grind and loot, you level up, and your stats matter to an almost OCD degree (I find myself planning in advance for what kind of character I want to play, and map out the stats and their allocation even before the playthrough starts). Its leveling system is pretty much traditionally RPG, with stat alocation and dependence of proficiencies on how you invest said stats. You can costumize your character in any way you want with a degree of freedom matched only by Bethesda games (I mean, try and be zweihander wielding mage in Dragon Age, for example).

The Story in DS is sparse and intentionally so, but that does not mean there is no choice. Killing or not killing a character always brings about a consequence and sets up butterfly effects, if nothing else, because of how permanent that choice is. You can kill off a vendor for the items he rewards you, or choose not to kill off a certain character even though he raises warning signs of "this guy will screw you over" always has a consequence in the playthrough, made more pertinet by the fact that none of it is telegraphed. In Dragon Age or The Witcher, and not to take away from those games, you all but see the "THIS IS A CHOICE THAT WILL IMPACT YOUR STORY" sign flashing before every single crossroad. Not so in DS. Siegmeyer will stand there, looking vaguely lost and out of place, and it's completely up to you to indulge him or ignore him, and that is a choice in and of itself, made all the more impactful by the fact that it is permanent; kill a character and he's gone and you can't rewind the action. You'll have to live with it the rest of that playthrough until NG+. The game also has a lot of lore behind a deceptively bare bones story, which is given to you contextually and not through page long exposition dumps.

So, we have strong character costumization, dungeon crawling, leveling systems, in-game choice and agency in the progression of the story, and a world filled with lore to explore. Sounds like a RPG to me, even if it plays like a hell of a lot more than just that.
Yeah timing of it is about it. The same argument can be made for combos in fighting games. It isn't a strong position to cling to in a debate but it is how I see it nonetheless considering in DS, if you miss - it often means death against many adversaries.

I don't consider Diablo an RPG either. I see it as a hack n' slash title akin to God of War, Onimusha, Bayonetta, Darksiders, Dynasty Warriors, or Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes. I love hack n slash and they all have upgradable equipment and even levels. The story is linear and offers non stop battle sequences to use your new skills. That describes Diablo perfectly. H/S (hack and slash) seems to be a genre many people don't talk about. I see Skyrim as half H/S and half RPG. Add in guns and you either get labeled Action/Adv (TPS: Uncharted/Tomb Raider [H/S] w/ guns and puzzles) or shooter (Mass Effect). I think that is the link between the statements "Fallout with swords and magic" & "Oblivion with guns." Fallout is a H/S style shooter which plays different than a FPS shooter because melee can be a viable combat model used. Fallout is half FPS half H/S with its model. It's the reason I love the new finishing moves Skyrim added. Being able to toggle TPS vs FPS camera views is a fun feature Bethesda engines provide in its RPGs. Over the shoulder camera views have been improving along with FPSs. However, FPS is more lucrative so its got faster development. Have you played Army of 2 #3 yet? That is a great TPS. The shooting cam in that game should set a new bar for TPSs.Not sure how many bugs it has if any, but I have seen that game played and they got a great combat model. Plus, I think they allow you more customization with the masks.


...You know that rambling made me realise I see Demon's Souls as a H/S. One that focuses on brutality, even psychologically. It uses survival horror techniques to emphasize it. (Monsters and such.) It needs Heavy Metal Music pretty bad IMO.

The killing people effecting story is interesting and I was unaware of it. Depending on how much weight is placed on such things. Can you kill every single one and not have to worry? Can you not kill anyone and not have to worry? If the answer to both is yes, that isn't much weight. Especially not with such harsh penalties for death on the player. I too don't like how blatantly obvious many AAA RPGs dumb down the dialogue to make your choicew's consequences as easy to pridict. However, you got to realize when they don't, the RPG fails to RPG crowds. Alpha Protocol many people hated that about it. Dragon Age 2 did this and people didn't like the dialogue in it. I think L.A. Noire was hindered by it - but I classify that as a different genre. The evolution of Point and Click Mystery Adventures. (Myst or Carmen Sandiego) I am hoping Whore of the Orient gets released.
 
Aug 1, 2010
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The thing is, virtually no video game in history can really call itself a "Role Playing Game" when compared to the standards of pen and paper RPGs.

If there is a limit on what you can do as a result of video game mechanics, you're no longer role playing.

Now days, the term "RPG" simply means that a game often has little emphasis on multiplayer, a customizable character, stats that can be upgraded and some kind of optional dialog system.

It has less to do with role playing specifics and more to do with a certain feel of a game.

No matter how much people want to deny it, Dark Souls is still an RPG in a modern sense. So is Skyrim. Once games like that get called out as not being RPGs, we're already deep into No True Scotsman territory.
 

Chaos Isaac

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Dark Souls is like a action RPG, with more emphasis on the combat, then say text or story writing, with the stats augmenting what style of combat you wish to take.

Though, with all the awesome background info and stuff, it walks away way better than many RPG's even if it doesn't strictly adhere to common description. (Looking at you Graces.)
 

Colt47

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Ah, dark souls. The one game that dared to be an actual game and not an interactive movie.
 

TheMigrantSoldier

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Mr Dizazta said:
Despite thoroughly enjoying the game, I cannot honestly say that Dark Souls in an RPG, JRPG or WRPG otherwise. The games overall emphasis on survival, loneliness, and its theme of inevitability that the Age of Darkness will happen no matter what the Chosen Undead does seems to point in the direction that Dark Souls is a part of the Survival Horror genre.

EDIT: Since I can't think of anything else to add to the OP, I will simply ask that if you agree that Dark Souls is more Survival Horror than RPG or vice versa. Or do you believe that using blanket terms to describe a game does that game a great disservice?
Considering that you didn't lay out a lot of arguments, I'll have to assume your position. I find it pretty dumb that player agency disqualifies a game from being an RPG (cough Mass Effect 2 cough).

I wish the RPG label would be scrapped forever. It seems to be a false badge of honor for some gamers.
 

klaynexas3

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Dec 30, 2009
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Shinsei-J said:
Since I first played Dark Souls I never really felt that it was a straight up RPG, while it may use many RPG elements
(character customization mostly) at its center I always thought of it as a 3D metroidvania of sorts. As in, if you were to trim the fat around the game eventually all you would have left is, fighting monsters, navigating a labyrinth like map and beating bosses, and that sounds like a metroidvania game to me.

Along with an RPG I don't really consider that it's a survival horror ether. The setting is unsettling and the monsters often made me uneasy but I never felt that to be the focal point of the game, it was just an aesthetical choice that enriched the gameplay and helped in immersion as a nice side dish to the main meal of hot metroidvania action.
Well, the first metroidvania game had some light elements of JRPG to it, so really you don't even have to trim the fat of Dark Souls to hit the metroidvania gameplay, jut the character creation.

With that in mind, it's more RPG than just about any JRPG is, so if we aren't classifying this as an RPG, by rights we would be ditching JRPGs as a whole, and even then plenty of WRPGs come into question too.
 

Ihateregistering1

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To me, this just gets into the whole "what makes an RPG?" type argument, which is sort of pointless because it's all in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I never thought of Dark Souls as an RPG in the same vein as, say, Fallout or the Dragon's Age games, I always thought of it as more of an ARPG (like Diablo or Torchlight), just 3rd person and much, much harder.
 

blackrave

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Mar 7, 2012
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Depends
If you consider RPG any game where you gain XP and can improve character, then even few last Battlefield were RPGs
I still think that an true RPG needs more than character progression
I personally consider Deus Ex: HR one of the best RPGs of recent years.

As for Dark Souls, why can't it be both? Survival RPG?
 

Evonisia

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Jun 24, 2013
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It's an RPG that has a dark theme. Halo 2 has an overarching theme that the Flood will inevitably win and there's nothing you can do about it, but it's still just an FPS. It even has very survival horror style missions.
 

ImperialSunlight

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Savagezion said:
If it plays like Demon Souls, I would agree with Mr. Dizazta probably more than someone saying it is an RPG. The only thing RPG-y about Demon Souls was character equiptment and levels.
Dark Souls has covenants, and even then, the ability to take your character in multiple directions (faith, sorcery, pyromancy, dex, strength, etc., as well as the different endings, paths through the world and optional content such as killing Gwyndolin and interacting with certain NPCs) is very RPGish.

Savagezion said:
The gameplay of Demon Souls is based on exact timing similar to QTE's without screen prompts. While not exactly like QTE's in the sense that there isn't only one combination that is viable - but exact timing of presses is the key and there is no flex on that. No "spray and pray" or button spam style 'tactics'.
You could say the same about any game that takes place in real time. It falls squarely into the "action RPG" genre, but it's still an RPG.

Savagezion said:
The game's atmosphere and story is basically "How long can you survive while we try to kill you? No matter how long you do, you're doomed."
Um, no. It's really not.

Savagezion said:
People have said Minecraft is survival horror. If that is true Dark Souls is as well. If you don't see them as survival horror, I would put forth Minecraft as a sandbox and Dark Souls as an Adventure title. I align more with Action/Adventure or Survival Horror class over RPG myself. Action/Adv (Tomb Raider) and Survival Horror(Resident Evil) are also known for QTE exact timing presses as well.
Dark Souls has no QTEs beyond your bizarre interpretation of them. Besides that, a game can be both an action game and an RPG, and as for horror, that genre is classified by themes in the game rather than gameplay, which makes these genres a rather silly way of classifying things, but it can be considered survival horror also.

Quoting from Wikipedia (Reputable source, I know): "Survival horror is a subgenre of action-adventure video games inspired by horror fiction."

So I would say Dark Souls is a Survival Horror Action-RPG. I hesitate to call it adventure. Demon's Souls, which is more linear, maybe, but Dark Souls has many more paths and significant choices to make and so better fits into the RPG label.
 

AntiChri5

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It's an RPG.

The gear and build you use combine to define your character. A heavy armour wearing knight with shield and sword feels entirely different from a backstabbing rogue. And not just in a gameplay sense but in a character sense. They have a fundamentally different perspective and approach to solving problems.

That's before we even get into the covenants.

There are certainly games that provide much much better roleplaying, But Dark Souls still provides it and so is an RPG.
 

AntiChri5

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Phoenixmgs said:
Dark Souls is like DnD but with the role-playing taken out; thus, Dark Souls is not an RPG because it doesn't have role-playing.
Dark Souls has roleplaying, why would you think otherwise?
 

babinro

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Thoralata said:
Do you level up? Yes
Do you gain new equipment and gear? Yes
Do you choose your class and play style? Yes
Does it say "Action/RPG" on From Software's classification? Yes.

It's an RPG.
This.

The game is classified as an RPG and viewed by many players as one. It's safe to say the game falls under this category. If you feel it better falls under a different genre then that's fine. Games frequently need several sub-genre classifications to properly illustrate what they are. Saying that Dark Souls is a survival horror game doesn't remove it's RPG elements.

More importantly though it's become to difficult to simply classify games these days. Very few current age games fall nicely under it's classification as they frequently borrow elements from other games. At best you can use these traditional classifications as descriptors of the type of experience you'll have with the game.
 
Feb 22, 2009
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Mr Dizazta said:
Despite thoroughly enjoying the game, I cannot honestly say that Dark Souls in an RPG, JRPG or WRPG otherwise. The games overall emphasis on survival, loneliness, and its theme of inevitability that the Age of Darkness will happen no matter what the Chosen Undead does seems to point in the direction that Dark Souls is a part of the Survival Horror genre.

EDIT: Since I can't think of anything else to add to the OP, I will simply ask that if you agree that Dark Souls is more Survival Horror than RPG or vice versa. Or do you believe that using blanket terms to describe a game does that game a great disservice?
Many action-RPGs don't let you have much interaction with the plot, but they remain RPGs. Dark Souls still lets you pick a class, pick your equipment, level up and upgrade your equipment however you like, in order to, y'know, roleplay. I can see survival horror in it too but it's definitely more RPG than that.