Dark Souls isn't an RPG

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Which is why that's not the definition of the RPG genre.

Then, for the sake of argument, what is the definition of the RPG genre?

A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Oh my fucking god. Can we not do this "But what is an RPG?" shit again? RPG covers practically anything that even vaguely relates to it. Linear, party-based, turn-based combat, random enemy encounters, set class system and skill trees, open-world, first-person, real time, set enemy positions, fluid class system have all made appearances in games that are described as RPGs.

Which is unsurprising, seeing as Role Playing Games as a group of words covers practically every fucking game.

But while I do see your point about survival horror, it can be both. And I would be tempted to say it is both, if it tried a bit harder at the horror. As it is I was not scared once throughout the game except to lose all my hard-earned souls, and I am not a horror person.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Oh my fucking god. Can we not do this "But what is an RPG?" shit again? RPG covers practically anything that even vaguely relates to it. Linear, party-based, turn-based combat, random enemy encounters, set class system and skill trees, open-world, first-person, real time, set enemy positions, fluid class system have all made appearances in games that are described as RPGs.

Which is unsurprising, seeing as Role Playing Games as a group of words covers practically every fucking game.

But while I do see your point about survival horror, it can be both. And I would be tempted to say it is both, if it tried a bit harder at the horror. As it is I was not scared once throughout the game except to lose all my hard-earned souls, and I am not a horror person.

People try to make RPGs all complicated when it's really very simple; an RPG's core focus must be on role-playing. Dark Souls core focus is not on role-playing, thus it's not an RPG. And the definition of an RPG fits very few games because very few games allow for character choice and story choice.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

People try to make RPGs all complicated when it's really very simple; an RPG's core focus must be on role-playing. Dark Souls core focus is not on role-playing, thus it's not an RPG. And the definition of an RPG fits very few games because very few games allow for character choice and story choice.

What, you don't think you're playing a role by kindling the Lordvessel and ushering in a new era? It may seem like you're just another undead, but you ring the bells, go to Anor Londo, do all this stuff that the NPCs say many others have failed to do. Furthermore you can adopt the role of any number of covenants, gathering eyes of death for Nito, being an asshole defending the forest for Alvina, or punishing invaders as a Darkmoon Blade. It allows plenty of flexibility in character choice and story choice, those being "Be whatever you want" and "Do whatever you want as long as you kill the main things", which to me seems about as varied as you can expect. Certainly moreso than Mass Effect, the difference being that Mass Effect is more scripted and detailed in your choices, where Dark Souls just lets you do whatever within the game and doesn't try to represent your choices.

Lastly, the focus of the game is essentially up to the player. Some take the default appearance and couldn't care less about their character. Having a focus on role-playing is a decision made by the player.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

People try to make RPGs all complicated when it's really very simple; an RPG's core focus must be on role-playing. Dark Souls core focus is not on role-playing, thus it's not an RPG. And the definition of an RPG fits very few games because very few games allow for character choice and story choice.

What, you don't think you're playing a role by kindling the Lordvessel and ushering in a new era? It may seem like you're just another undead, but you ring the bells, go to Anor Londo, do all this stuff that the NPCs say many others have failed to do. Furthermore you can adopt the role of any number of covenants, gathering eyes of death for Nito, being an asshole defending the forest for Alvina, or punishing invaders as a Darkmoon Blade. It allows plenty of flexibility in character choice and story choice, those being "Be whatever you want" and "Do whatever you want as long as you kill the main things", which to me seems about as varied as you can expect. Certainly moreso than Mass Effect, the difference being that Mass Effect is more scripted and detailed in your choices, where Dark Souls just lets you do whatever within the game and doesn't try to represent your choices.

Lastly, the focus of the game is essentially up to the player. Some take the default appearance and couldn't care less about their character. Having a focus on role-playing is a decision made by the player.

The core focus of Dark Souls is clearly on the dungeon crawling. You have more decisions to make in say Far Cry 3 and that's not an RPG either. There's nothing in Dark Souls anywhere close to the decisions you make in Mass Effect. There's a big difference between playing as a character (99% of games) and role-playing as a character.

 

[Branindain]

TotalBiscuit has a good term for games like Revengeance, DmC and Bayonetta which is based on game dynamics: "Spectacle Fighter".

I use that term myself, I think it's a good one, but I got it from Yahtzee, who made it sound like his own creation. Did he plagiarise it from TB? Or maybe vice versa?

 

[Ieyke]

TotalBiscuit has a good term for games like Revengeance, DmC and Bayonetta which is based on game dynamics: "Spectacle Fighter".

I use that term myself, I think it's a good one, but I got it from Yahtzee, who made it sound like his own creation. Did he plagiarise it from TB? Or maybe vice versa?

TB's been using that one for ages. I've only heard Yahtzee use it recently.
It might just be an angry British expatriate thing...

 

[Church185]

A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.

So, I assume the role of the Chosen Undead and set out to break the curse that is plaguing this land. Depending on who you believe (Frampt or Kaathe), you can accomplish this by either extending the age of fire, or extinguish the flame and usher in the age of men.

In my most recent playthrough I was a ninja, who used stealth, poison, katanas, and bows to carry out my mission. On the way to ring the second bell, I killed Quelaag. Shortly after it was revealed to me that Quelaag was simply trying to collect humanity to keep her sister alive. Because it was I who killed her last hope of being kept alive, I took it upon myself to feed her humanity. Though it was tempting to obtain humanity by killing fellow adventurers, I took a more noble path and helped adventurers along their path. This provided me with the humanity I needed to keep the Fair Lady alive.

Tada, it's a roleplaying game.

Please try again.

 

[Church185]

Who called Dark Souls an RPG? There's no role playing, it's an action-adventure game. As in, a game about exploring the world and killing everything in it and figuring out how to get past its challenges.

So like Skyrim, Diablo, or Final Fantasy? I guess those shouldn't be considered RPGs either.

 

[Not Lord Atkin]

I wouldn't say that the two are mutually exclusive. You can have a survival horror which is also an RPG. See System Shock 2.

As for Dark Souls, it does have elements of both. The fact that you're building your character up from nothing the way you wish, coupled with the emphasis on interchangeable and improvable equipment makes it an RPG while the atmosphere of complete desolation and utter loneliness coupled with the fact that the game makes you moves slow and almost feel afraid of what's ahead of you, knowing that death is inevitable taps into survival horror.

It's a unique game alright.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

Video game genres are ill-defined and "RPG" is the most ill-defined of them all.

Discussions about video game genres are circuitous and highly subjective, and discussions about what defines an RPG are the most circuitous and subjective of all.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Anything with a level-up system gets called an RPG. They say it about Diablo for frig's sake. For me it can't be called roleplaying until you have decisions to make beyond which special attack to unleash next. Most games that claim RPG status aren't.

I hear good things about Dark Souls. Unfortunately I did not hear that the PC port is crap. I bought it and it won't work correctly. DSFix has so far not helped. I look forward to actually playing the damn thing someday.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.

So, I assume the role of the Chosen Undead and set out to break the curse that is plaguing this land. Depending on who you believe (Frampt or Kaathe), you can accomplish this by either extending the age of fire, or extinguish the flame and usher in the age of men.

In my most recent playthrough I was a ninja, who used stealth, poison, katanas, and bows to carry out my mission. On the way to ring the second bell, I killed Quelaag. Shortly after it was revealed to me that Quelaag was simply trying to collect humanity to keep her sister alive. Because it was I who killed her last hope of being kept alive, I took it upon myself to feed her humanity. Though it was tempting to obtain humanity by killing fellow adventurers, I took a more noble path and helped adventurers along their path. This provided me with the humanity I needed to keep the Fair Lady alive.

Tada, it's a roleplaying game.

Please try again.

I'm not saying there's no role-playing in DS, I'm saying it's not the focus of the game, which is dungeon crawling. I spent more time role-playing in Mass Effect than I did shooting. You spent more time dungeon crawling than role-playing in DS.

 

[Church185]

I'm not saying there's no role-playing in DS, I'm saying it's not the focus of the game, which is dungeon crawling. I spent more time role-playing in Mass Effect than I did shooting. You spent more time dungeon crawling than role-playing in DS.

It may not have been your focus, but I role-played quite a bit while I was playing DS. Your definition of RPG is vague to the point of being useless. Considering you got your definition from Wikipedia, let's see how they define Dark Souls [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Souls].

Dark Souls is an action role-playing video game set in an open world environment.

Would you look at that, even they think that Dark Souls is an RPG.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I'm not saying there's no role-playing in DS, I'm saying it's not the focus of the game, which is dungeon crawling. I spent more time role-playing in Mass Effect than I did shooting. You spent more time dungeon crawling than role-playing in DS.

It may not have been your focus, but I role-played quite a bit while I was playing DS. Your definition of RPG is vague to the point of being useless. Considering you got your definition from Wikipedia, let's see how they define Dark Souls [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Souls].

Dark Souls is an action role-playing video game set in an open world environment.

Would you look at that, even they think that Dark Souls is an RPG.

You role-played quite a bit, but you dungeon crawled quite a bit more than that. Uncharted is not a platformer even though it has platforming because the platforming is not the focus of the game. Mirror's Edge is not a shooter because it has shooting, it's a platformer because that's the focus of the game. The focus of Dark Souls is dungeon crawling. The genre a game falls into is what the game's primary focus is.

The problem is that video games are not categorized by the actual definition of an RPG. Almost all JRPGs wouldn't be RPGs under the definition. JRPGs have more in common with point and click adventure games than RPGs.

 

[Church185]

You role-played quite a bit, but you dungeon crawled quite a bit more than that. Uncharted is not a platformer even though it has platforming because the platforming is not the focus of the game. Mirror's Edge is not a shooter because it has shooting, it's a platformer because that's the focus of the game. The focus of Dark Souls is dungeon crawling. The genre a game falls into is what the game's primary focus is.

So games like Dragon's Dogma and Kingdoms of Amalur shouldn't be considered RPGs either I guess.

The problem is that video games are not categorized by the actual definition of an RPG. Almost all JRPGs wouldn't be RPGs under the definition. JRPGs have more in common with point and click adventure games than RPGs.

Ah, because you totally don't pick your character progression in games like Final Fantasy...

 

[Spearmaster]

RPG, Role Playing Game. By pure definition all games are an RPG as soon as you are playing the role of a character that is not you. Leveling up, stat/item choice or progression have nothing to do with determining weather a game is an RPG or not.

For the purpose of genre you have to look to what the game emphasizes as its main game-play element. In the case of dark souls role playing is not at the core of the game, I would call it a strategic-combat, fantasy game, not a RPG.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

RPG, Role Playing Game. By pure definition all games are an RPG as soon as you are playing the role of a character that is not you. Leveling up, stat/item choice or progression have nothing to do with determining weather a game is an RPG or not.

For the purpose of genre you have to look to what the game emphasizes as its main game-play element. In the case of dark souls role playing is not at the core of the game, I would call it a strategic-combat, fantasy game, not a RPG.

Technically, the original definition of RPG lies a far bit closer to rules heavy miniature games than modern day White Wolf-inspired storytelling. The problem is that RPG encompasses everything from "almost-but-not-quite-a-miniature-conflict-game" like D&D which encourages the use of grid-based combat, miniatures and with a large focus on stats and character building to "Kind-of-like-theater-but-without-a-stage" New World of Darkness that encourages emphasis on heavy character portrayal and descriptive explanations over rules.

Neither is wrong. Dark Souls is an RPG by virtue of being a game in which you level your character, create a skill build and use your build to maximum effect in combat-focused scenarios. If Dark Souls isn't an RPG, then we might as well claim that first edition AD&D wasn't either, because of the focus on dungeon crawling, physical conflict and the relatively minimal aspect of character portrayal.

As a long time, hardcore roleplayer it bothers me that so few know or understand the historical roots of RPGs. Especially when they try to dismiss games that are essentially electronic versions of 1st edition AD&D (or Sword & Sorcery) as "not RPGs". In many ways, Dark Souls is truer to the original definition of RPG than many modern RPGs are.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

So games like Dragon's Dogma and Kingdoms of Amalur shouldn't be considered RPGs either I guess.

Ah, because you totally don't pick your character progression in games like Final Fantasy...

Amalur at least tries, you got your dialog choices and a persuasion skill. Dogma's not an RPG. Games like Final Fantasy don't even try. Tidus, Lightning, Cloud, etc. all say and do exactly what they are scripted to do outside of combat, you have no say over what your FF characters say and do outside of combat. If you take the combat out of a FF game, all you got is a point and click adventure game.

Tito pretty much echos my statements about what an RPG is in this Escapist Podcast [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/5431-035-What-Defines-An-RPG-More-Mass-Effect] and they start talking about what defines an RPG at just before the 8 minute mark, he even says Final Fantasy is not an RPG.

 

[Church185]

Amalur at least tries, you got your dialog choices and a persuasion skill.

But that game is more about the combat, so I guess it is out of the RPG club. /sarcasm

Games like Final Fantasy don't even try. Tidus, Lightning, Cloud, etc. all say and do exactly what they are scripted to do outside of combat, you have no say over what your FF characters say and do outside of combat. If you take the combat out of a FF game, all you got is a point and click adventure game.

Somebody forgot that Final Fantasy didn't start with 7. Hell in the first one there weren't set protagonists, you just picked 4 classes and went on your merry way.

Tito pretty much echos my statements about what an RPG is in this Escapist Podcast [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-podcast/5431-035-What-Defines-An-RPG-More-Mass-Effect] and they start talking about what defines an RPG at just before the 8 minute mark, he even says Final Fantasy is not an RPG.

It's hard to argue from authority [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority] when your authority gave Dragon Age 2 a 5/5. Looks like he was wrong on the RPG definition as well.

EDIT: Actually, let us look at what he has to say [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/8701-Dragon-Age-II-Review.2] about Dragon Age 2, shall we? According to him, it is the "pinnacle of role-playing games". Let that sink in for a moment. A game very similarly focused on combat (Amalur, Dragon's Dogma) is being called an RPG by the very person saying they shouldn't be considered RPGs. Either give up this fight (which is pointless) or find better people to quote.