Defining Misogynism

[Darken12]

Except it really isn't the problem that some make it out to be.

Not to mention that it seems to suggest that women have some sort of special right to never be made uncomfortable by anyone ever.

Whereas making jokes about men isn't sexism, and sexual harassment of men doesn't exist by definition.

I would not agree. I would consider it a problem worth addressing.

Having said that, what you point out are often considered men's issues, and there are groups (such as the MRAs) that are focused on solving those problems. Worry not, they are being addressed.

But is it really, though?

Not nearly as common as misandry, I would think.

I think so much of it is in crazy women's heads, where they think that men are judging them harshly because they're women or judging all women based on their performance and they really aren't. Neither do men give a **** about women in powerful positions, that's just paranoia.

It seems we will have to agree to disagree. While I agree that some extremists take it too far, misogyny is a real issue and sexist attitudes, while mild and nowhere near what they were in previous times, are still widespread.

EDIT: Oh, but I'll tell you what WILL cause misogyny...

Those ****ing quotas.

People will be able to say "There's [woman's name], who only got the [job name] because she's a woman."...

...AND THEY'LL BE COMPLETELY CORRECT.

Coincidentally, we just spoke of this on the CommuniCast. We all more or less agreed that quotas are bad because they foster that kind of attitude.

 

[aba1]

snip

Hey I was just glancing though and I am not trying to be rude or tell you what to do but it is considered rude to speak on peoples behalf and if you want people to both take your opinions seriously and listen to them you really can't be telling them what they have and haven't done or what they do or do not think since only they actually know these things. Again not trying to attack you just a heads up if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[aba1]

snip

Hey I was just glancing though and I am not trying to be rude or tell you what to do but it is considered rude to speak on peoples behalf and if you want people to both take your opinions seriously and listen to them you really can't be telling them what they have and haven't done or what they do or do not think since only they actually know these things. Again not trying to attack you just a heads up if you want to be taken seriously.

I hardly see whose behalf I was speaking on. Care to inform?

SeanSeanston's you only made like 1 or 2 posts so I assumed you would know which one sorry I should have been clearer. Also I think you meant "I don't see whose behalf I was speaking on" since "hardly" means you would have seen whose opinion you were speaking on behalf of only a little bit which doesn't make to much sense since either you do see it or you don't.

 

[SeanSeanston]

a passionate joke condoning something like, I don't know, rape culture.

Yeah, passionate jokes about sexist delusional horse**** is a real problem facing society ^_-

That's a tactic Feminists love though: Coming up with legitimate-sounding terms (in this case, "rape culture") to avoid addressing an issue with reason and evidence by presenting it as some sort of established concept with its own name and, surely as a consequence, history of being scientifically evaluated and verified.

Most sensible feminists

Most sensible Feminists... and yes, I'm going to recognize that there are people who apply that completely subjective and self-applied term to themselves, who aren't sexist, delusional arse****s, who usually fall into 1 of 2 groups:

1. Those who do believe in actual equal treatment, but are too indoctrinated to realize that man have many serious issues.
2. Those who call themselves feminists yet actually recognize that men have problems too, and sometimes even defend the rights of men, e.g. Christina Hoff Sommers.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers)

Either way, most sensible Feminists... do not honestly ****ing matter, because they are not the ones lobbying for misandric, sexist legislation. They do not have much power and they usually prefer sitting at home, doing nothing about anything, calling themselves "feminists" even though they hardly understand a damn thing about the concept, let alone looked at it from more than 1 biased angle.
USUALLY, I say, because there are in group 1. Then Sommers up there, in group 2... isn't part of a large enough group to make a real difference in between being savaged by the mainstream feminists.

making jokes about men is sexism and female-on-male sexual harassment does exist.

Generally though, nobody cares and the law/society is skewed heavily against taking such things seriously.

Feminism does not exist for the purpose of vaulting women over men

Could have fooled me. Is that why it's always campaigning for equal rights to be given for men to see their own children? -_-

You should look at the situation on that in America, it's quite shocking. GirlWritesWhat on YouTube has a lot to say on such serious matters in general.

She gave a talk about the problems of Feminism to the New York Libertarian Party recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LkYDpQQVJ0

I think it's quite a good summary of what is so ****ed up in general about the entire concept. It's about an hour long, but if someone cares enough to have an opinion on such matters, that's not really that long.

but rather for promoting a culture free of inherent gender bias.

Again... domestic violence... supporting easier convictions for rape when men are accused of raping women... anonymity for rape accusers but not the accused...

etc. etc.

Unless you walk around with your eyes closed, it's hard not to see these things.

Now, that's not to say it supports the demolition of gender roles, but rather that all genders receive fair treatment in society. You be asking yourself now, "Then why do they attack men?" Then answer to this question is more easily understood if we look at Marxism. Marxism promotes a classless society yet its writings attack the bourgeoisie and aristocracy. This occur because, in order to establish the classless, we must criticize and point out the flaws in society. The same principle applies to all gender theories, there must be some degree of hostility or it'll be dismissed.

Except

A. You cannot justify attacking people based on something like their gender ever.
B. No one ever dares dismiss feminists, no matter how rambling or hostile, for fear of being labelled a sexist by sexists.

This is pretty much a case of see no evil, hear no evil. You don't see it because, at some level, you don't want to see it and you've certainly never been a victim of it.

Sorry, maybe that's my fault for not living in 1957.

Think of the last time you settled down with a female and had a serious conversation on how her gender has affected her recent experience, can't remember, huh?

What about the last time anyone cared about how men's gender ever affects them ever?

It's kind of tiring when your gender is depicted as being the cause of everything bad in the world ever, and simultaneously gets none of the praise for all the good it's done and does, including for women.

Meanwhile, you've never seen any advantage to being male while you're treated as though it makes life so very easy and there are blatantly gigantic issues staring you in the face that you suspect everyone actually realizes but just doesn't care about.

There's a lot of talk about the "glass ceiling" (of course, no reasonable evidence or motive is ever given) but not a lot about how women make up very little of the people at the bottom of society. Feminism is all about grabbing as much as it can without regard for anyone else.

E.g. The vast majority of the violence in the world is done to men, but you only hear about stopping violence AGAINST WOMEN. Yes, the safest group in society should be even safer, and if resources are used on that which could have been used for keeping men safe instead... too ****ing bad. I suppose there's a good reason that "violence against women" is a phrase, and violence when it happens to men is just called "violence", since it does make up almost all of it.

Are you suggesting that "feeling" discriminated against somehow means something? Somehow we don't all look for things to blame at times that aren't ourselves?
One big difference is that women are encouraged to think that their gender holds them back and may be responsible for why they're not succeeding as they'd wish.
If a man was legitimately handicapped by his gender (such as in the aforementioned laws where a man may experience not being hired because of his gender and a woman may not ever), and complained about it... he would still not be taken seriously.

Sexism allegations are a lot like rape allegations TBQH: They require little or no evidence, everyone important takes the woman's side, and no consequences usually happen to false accusers.

It's Feminists (the ones that aren't completely open manhaters, just ignorant and deluded) who need to think about the sexism experienced by the other gender, the sexism they don't see because they don't care and they've been told all their lives that it only happens to women.
Men get enough bombardment about women's "problems" (usually something like women are expected to look presentable when on TV, where of course men are never judged by appearances or anything equally shallow) every time they watch TV or open a newspaper. Rarely do women ever get forced to consider the possibility that being a man isn't the jackpot they're indoctrinated to believe it is.

Also, I'm kinda tired right now... I hope I phrased things well but I may have been a little abrupt or messy in places...

 

[aba1]

snip

Hey I was just glancing though and I am not trying to be rude or tell you what to do but it is considered rude to speak on peoples behalf and if you want people to both take your opinions seriously and listen to them you really can't be telling them what they have and haven't done or what they do or do not think since only they actually know these things. Again not trying to attack you just a heads up if you want to be taken seriously.

I hardly see whose behalf I was speaking on. Care to inform?

SeanSeanston's you only made like 1 or 2 posts so I assumed you would know which one sorry I should have been clearer.

I know which post you're referring to, I don't see how I'm speaking on his behalf, I think it's pretty safe to assume he's never been the victim of male-on-female discrimination and I highly doubt that most people who say "I think so much of it is in crazy women's heads" have had serious discussions with women on the impact gender has on everyday life. Furthermore, it has less to do with his experiences as it does with that of many men; I thought I made this pretty clear in my multiple warnings and apologies for using his posts as a basis to make semi-unrelated statements.

See that is what I am talking about you are making assumptions about his life then claiming them true on his behalf.

"I think it's pretty safe to assume he's never been the victim of male-on-female discrimination"

You say it is safe to assume meaning you are certain you are correct meaning you know with absolute certainty. Then you go on to speak of a experience, the experience of male on female discrimination meaning you know with absolute certainty that he has not had that experience. The thing is since you are speaking about him you are speaking on his behalf saying what he has or has not done. So I am left guessing either you are his conjoined twin or you are speaking about knowledge you don't have on his behalf. So I guess I have to ask are you his conjoined twin? Since you never know you might be who am I to say I don't know either of you.

 

[SeanSeanston]

I think it's pretty safe to assume he's never been the victim of male-on-female discrimination

I think it's also pretty safe to assume that almost no woman in the Western world under the age of 30 has been either.

One important thing to remember is that we have different standards for men and women. That can turn something that would be sexist against women, into something that isn't even given a second thought when it happens to a man.

EDIT: But hey, haven't we all been victims of it, in a sense?
Like when you see ads about domestic violence and they all paint men as violent and women as helpless victims. The message being: men's suffering does not matter, and man are responsible for all domestic violence.
It's not very nice and it does wear on your sense on self after a while.

and I highly doubt that most people who say "I think so much of it is in crazy women's heads" have had serious discussions with women on the impact gender has on everyday life.

Would a woman, or anyone, have a serious discussion with me about the impact gender has on my everyday (or hypothetical future) life?

No.

Not ever.

I don't see why I should respect people in ways that they don't and would never respect me.
(Mostly referring to feminists there, but also it's hardly fair to expect me to honestly care about women's issues when men's issues get virtually zero attention and those "issues" that remain for women are highly trivial or imaginary, or both.)

Furthermore, it has less to do with his experiences as it does with that of many men; I thought I made this pretty clear in my multiple warnings and apologies for using his posts as a basis to make semi-unrelated statements.

That's equally (or moreso, because men are constantly told to think of women's problems and not the other way around) true of women though, it must be said. Despite the obvious obstacles faced by men, nobody really cares, even men because most don't realize the inherent injustices at work or they just aren't inclined to complain.

I mean, you have women talk about the reduced opportunities from being a woman...

...they never mention that being born female gave them a greater opportunity to even reach adulthood in the first place.

People talk of female genital mutilation, but it's perfectly fine to risk the life of a newborn male child by mutilating his genitals.

 

[The Wonder of the net]

Ow ow ow, My head fucking hurts. Listening to this I am like "ow ow" because I can see where he comes from. I do not agree but this hurts my brain because he is only looking at it as women being stupid. Men can be worse. As a penis owner I have such a issue with men not being men, paying for dinner, opening doors for women, and paying for tickets at the movies is just what you do. If men do not like what they are seeing in women, just change your mind on what you interest what there is out there. I try to keep my mind open, I have dated men and women. I have never seen the issue with people I show interest in. When I draw the line in the sand I have never seen that issue with people I was with. Now what I mean is I never have dated a dumb woman and by dumb I do not mean the average woman. I mean the women who and I am pulling from personal experience because most of my coworkers are female, get fired from a job like KFC or a diner for not doing their job. Everyone saw it, everyone knew this woman was a person who within 2 weeks of working there had sex with a employee. She now is either fired or down to one day. Honestly I thought she was going to fail from the start because she is chatty in a job you need to really work.

 

[Cellseam]

(about the anecdote in the bar) Yes, truly women are the spawn of satan for being RUDE and having a BAD ATTITUDE. Because in this video he's just the epitome of charming. Truly this is worse thing you can do to another human being.

I think the problem is that we're still thinking of women as one group, like all women are the same, in the same way ultra radical feminists think all men are misogynist and rapists.

This is going to sound harsh, but as a detached observer and how things tend to work out. In terms of entitlement women feel they have, while not pc, if you have a culture that implies men have to be impressive to 'win women over', some women will be lazy and accept the trophy wife title and take the highest bidder because it is still socially acceptable to do that. Women complain because they get away with it, if the man truly does not want to put up with it, he can dump her, but for some reason he puts up with it, because he wants a woman, or sex. This is same reason woman put up with abusive men.

I'll make this simple, why do women invade male spaces? Because of all the implications that being 'female' is bad and lame and being 'male' is positive and strong. It's more complicated than that, but that's a big part. (That's a show for chicks...) Also, the options pop media insists for women are very limiting, you're breaking the mold if you dont want to shop for clothes every day.

Ah yes, the ironclad statistics of saying 'all women only marry jerks'. Ah so MEN can be split into good men and jerks, but ALL women are terrible.

 

[SeanSeanston]

I don't even know how to rebuttal your statements, they're completely unrelated to mine. Whether you like or not your view of feminism is completely corrupted by the third-wave bullshit, I attempted to make it clear that what you think is feminism is not true to the core values of actual feminism but instead you continue to rant against things completely unrelated to its actual ideals.

Again, what ideals?

It's a completely self-applied term.

It could mean anything to anyone.

It's the old "Not All Feminists Are Like That" argument, which can be used to deflect any criticism of Feminists, no matter how common they are, away from Feminism itself.

If there are so many Feminists with ideals that involve respecting men equally... then why are they not up in arms when the reality of domestic violence is so twisted and used to push an agenda?
Why do they never do anything to help men ever, unless as an unavoidable side-effect of improving women's rights/privileges?

As a penis owner I have such a issue with men not being men, paying for dinner, opening doors for women, and paying for tickets at the movies is just what you do.

Wait, what?

Bahahahahahahaha...

I think the problem is that we're still thinking of women as one group, like all women are the same, in the same way ultra radical feminists think all men are misogynist and rapists.

For instance... let's not forget how it's largely men that allowed all of this to happen. Those in power who used it for their own corrupt ends, those in the public who are ignorant as all hell, and those who would do something if they were women being treated unfairly... but they're men so they stay quiet.

I'll make this simple, why do women invade male spaces? Because of all the implications that being 'female' is bad and lame and being 'male' is positive and strong. It's more complicated than that, but that's a big part.

And I think a lot, or most, of that is inside the heads of certain very insecure women.

I think the problem is they don't realize that while they have an inferiority complex... most other people don't actually care enough to put the energy into actively looking down on anyone if they're not getting in their way.

Also, the options pop media insists for women are very limiting, you're breaking the mold if you dont want to shop for clothes every day.

Oh let's be fair here... men are pigeonholed too. Men are supposed to like sports, cars, ****ty games like COD etc. etc.

EDIT: And as an aside... one thing that pisses me off is even young men being roped into this old person's conflict.
It doesn't matter that you were born in the 80s or 90s and that you have never known a world before that, you are still somehow treated as though you have the same prejudices and views that grown men in the 50s are meant to have had.

As though somehow a man in his 20s would see it as a good thing to have to support another adult human and an entire family, just because he's a man. Yes, that sounds unambiguously brilliant and not a lot of pressure at all.
Or that we'd have a problem with the idea of women with important jobs, for absolutely no stated reason. Or that we in any way expect or have experienced privilege from being male.

You don't have to work to remove preconceptions that never existed in the first place.

On the other hand, we have experienced the phenomenon of it being ok to say things that are sexist against men, but not even being able to say things that are true that some women don't like.
e.g. Men are better drivers than women, because they have better spatial awareness and quicker reactions. Hence why there has never been a successful top-level female racing driver and no woman has even entered the F1 World Championship in over 20 years. Women also cause more car crashed per mile driven than men do.

Somehow though, that might be considered sexist, as though women's fragile minds might collapse or some such >_>.

EDIT: Also, I am genuinely stunned by the EU's recent-ish decision to stop allowing insurance companies to charge men more for insurance. STUNNED.

Of course, there are still women complaining... even though they'll still be paying less than men used to have to pay just because they were born male. Not used to equal treatment, I guess.

 

[The Wonder of the net]

As a penis owner I have such a issue with men not being men, paying for dinner, opening doors for women, and paying for tickets at the movies is just what you do.

Wait, what?

Bahahahahahahaha...

My point was ever since I was younger and lets go and say I'm 21 looking at my 29 year old brother and saw how he was with dating. you pay for a movie blah blah blah. Point was even though you and her both work you do it because its chivalry. Now I do have a girl I am interested in. I took her on dates and yea she choose a douche over me but I didn't throw a fit about it I said what ever. I am still her friend. I still fuck with the head of her boyfriend by having a better relationship with her then she does with him. But its the point of women and men are different so blah thats ganna happen. We do not have to have a issue with paying for dinner or a movie but thats not all a relationship is. That is what I have the issue with. The issue of relationships that are all about draining your wallet.

 

[SeanSeanston]

My point was ever since I was younger and lets go and say I'm 21 looking at my 29 year old brother and saw how he was with dating. you pay for a movie blah blah blah. Point was even though you and her both work you do it because its chivalry. Now I do have a girl I am interested in. I took her on dates and yea she choose a douche over me but I didn't throw a fit about it I said what ever. I am still her friend. I still fuck with the head of her boyfriend by having a better relationship with her then she does with him. But its the point of women and men are different so blah thats ganna happen. We do not have to have a issue with paying for dinner or a movie but thats not all a relationship is. That is what I have the issue with. The issue of relationships that are all about draining your wallet.

Oh wait, so you're AGAINST all that chivalric bull****?

I wasn't completely sure initially when I read the first post... but then after reading it a few times it seemed like you were saying you had an issue with men not doing those things.

...did I get it right this time? xD

I'm tired too because it's late where I am. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

Anyway, I really don't see why a man has to try harder to impress a woman than the other way around. I see where it originated, but we don't live in the past.
After all, a woman has a biological clock and a man doesn't. If they break up then, to be perfectly frank, he has a lot more time to find someone else than she does, and he has more options open. Also the inherent greater sense it makes for men to be polygamous than for women; you'd think it would make more sense for HER to convince HIM to choose to stay with her and only her while she has enough time.

Just pointing out some observations ^_^

Oh and that reminds me of those excuses that some women use to avoid taking the initiative. Well, they're probably moreso lying to themselves. Like not approaching a man they like, because for some reason he and everyone else will think she's easy o_o. Or that he won't want her to approach him, because he'd rather take the initiative and feel "like a man" (all of a sudden equality means nothing, eh?)... so it's really almost like they're doing him a favour by not approaching him?

All just very poor excuses... but I admit I'd be tempted to use such reasoning if I could get away with it.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

Seems to me that all too often...

1. If a man dislikes women, he is a misogynist.

2. If a man likes things about women and is attracted to some of them because he enjoys their company and finds them to be enjoyable people to be around or do things with, he is also a misogynist who is probably "objectifying" them, and has secret designs on raping them if only that pesky law would stop getting in the way (like virtually all men of all kinds who have ever lived, BTW, natch).

3. If a man ignores women, he is also a misogynist.

1) When does that happen if he's not judging her solely based on her gender, like this guy was doing?

2) Seriously, I don't think that ever happens. You brought up how "creep" is brought up too often. Sorry, but I think that actually has to do with people being creepy. Someone being friends with women is not misogynistic.

3) When does that happen?

Most of your posts in this thread seem to be you making up what you think feminism is and what feminists do so you can easily attack it.

 

[The Wonder of the net]

Oh wait, so you're AGAINST all that chivalric bull****?

I wasn't completely sure initially when I read the first post... but then after reading it a few times it seemed like you were saying you had an issue with men not doing those things.

...did I get it right this time? xD

No i am not against it, I am against guys not having chivalries.