Demon's Souls

[oldgamer]

Yahtzee would rather play a game that rewards you for time played rather than skill, aka WoW.

That's why I hate MMORPG's, it's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of time wasted.

Losing progression because of your stupid mistakes makes advancement more meaningful.

The game refuses to let you progress until you've shown some actual skill, not time wasted.

Dying is something you need to get over quick, otherwise you're not going to have fun.

Even with all the time "wasted" learning from mistakes, it's still not a "time sink".

You won't see a Soul level 100 player who didn't earn it.

Your Soul level and progression have far more skill value than your Lv.70 AoE Protection Paladin on WoW.

WoW only grants you levels based on time spent, not skill.

Action games grant you progress for trying to same 30 second sequence enough times to luck out.

Demon's Souls makes sure time spent and dumb luck alone don't get you meaningful progress in the game.

It's only hard compared to piss-poor easy games that are more concerned with getting everyone who bought the game through to the end.

The game has no obligation to have an easy mode because you don't feel like trying too hard.

You realized that with Skate 2, why not with a hardcore JRPG like Demon's Souls?

This isn't a game you'll be able to properly review with what little progress you made.
You were trying to rush through it to write a review, you failed, and had to just summary your short experience. That's not a real review, you didn't progress enough to even level up. Are you seriously going to say you reviewed a JRPG without leveling up once? How could you think you could make progress without leveling up in an RPG? You make no sense.

 

[atomicmrpelly]

Woo! Email the stupid Aussie!

 

[snowman6251]

Yahtzee would rather play a game that rewards you for time played rather than skill, aka WoW.

That's why I hate MMORPG's, it's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of time wasted.

Losing progression because of your stupid mistakes makes advancement more meaningful.

The game refuses to let you progress until you've shown some actual skill, not time wasted.

Dying is something you need to get over quick, otherwise you're not going to have fun.

Even with all the time "wasted" learning from mistakes, it's still not a "time sink".

You won't see a Soul level 100 player who didn't earn it.

Your Soul level and progression have far more skill value than your Lv.70 AoE Protection Paladin on WoW.

WoW only grants you levels based on time spent, not skill.

Action games grant you progress for trying to same 30 second sequence enough times to luck out.

Demon's Souls makes sure time spent and dumb luck alone don't get you meaningful progress in the game.

It's only hard compared to piss-poor easy games that are more concerned with getting everyone who bought the game through to the end.

The game has no obligation to have an easy mode because you don't feel like trying too hard.

You realized that with Skate 2, why not with a hardcore JRPG like Demon's Souls?

This isn't a game you'll be able to properly review with what little progress you made.
You were trying to rush through it to write a review, you failed, and had to just summary your short experience. That's not a real review, you didn't progress enough to even level up. Are you seriously going to say you reviewed a JRPG without leveling up once? How could you think you could make progress without leveling up in an RPG? You make no sense.

Whats wrong with wanting to see the end of something you paid 60 bucks for. I mean I wouldn't give Demon's Souls to my mom expecting her to see the conclusion but as a gamer I play games til the end or until I get too bored to be bothered.

Anyway your whole argument is a contradiction because what the hell is Demon's Souls if not a measure of time wasted. By making you repeat the same level over and over until you do it flawlessly its not so much testing your skill as its testing your willingness to repeat ad nauseam.

That's not to say there's no skill involved but if you're at least somewhat competent at the game try the level enough times to memorize every nook and cranny and undead warrior and eventually you will make the it through the level.

Its just like any other game. Trail and error until victorious. The only difference is if you fuck up you have to redo more. That's not entertainment in my eyes so much as its frustration.

 

[snowman6251]

*SNIP*

Beat me to it. Being page 4 of this thread, I know no one is going to see either of our posts, but I'm going to throw my two cents in here as well regardless.

While it may seem great to spam Atkinson with emails and whatnot about what a knob he is, the international escapists don't have to deal with the consequences of such an action. I applaud Yahtzee's humour in how he posted the email, but by doing so he has pretty much killed what little chance we have of actually getting the rating while Atkinson is in office because he'll read a few of the emails, and lump all gamers into one category.

The government paper he is referring to is only an opinion piece. My brother and I have sent our letters in, but even if half the population of the country send in that we want an R18 rating, it still comes down to Atkinson.

But like I said, this is a review written by Yahtzee and it's on page 4 so no one will see this. Quote me to prove me wrong if you like.

Oh whats that? No one will read it?

Anyway that is the problem with the email address. Emails like "OMG UR A DICK I HATE YOU LET ME HAVE L4D2" are not going to help the Aussies. Most likely it will hurt them as he can print out some emails and say "see these are the kind of people who want that stuff". A well written letter would probably still have no effect but should be the type of thing sent in. Sadly though asking the average internet dweller to write well, especially to someone they don't like, is not going to work out well.

Please tell me people aren't sending emails like this. I sent a very serious email (which isn't like me at all) because although I'm not Australian I feel very strongly about this. Anybody who's sending emails like that are just ruining it for themselves. Not that he's likely to reply, or acknowledge us at all.

Obviously I don't know what other people wrote to him but knowing the internet I have a feeling he's getting some, if not many messages along those lines, and like I said, that's only counterproductive.

 

[Froztwolf]

Great piece!

Still waiting on a Borderlands review btw

 

[Dragon-Byte]

Your humble acolytes are ready to do your will oh noble Yahtzee!

the messages are sent!

email him!
[email protected]
entitle: 'The "Vocal Minority" Speaks Out'

 

[gillebro]

Hey Yahtzee, I'm not Australian, but I've been quite upset over the fact the Australian ratings board refuses to admit the R18+ rating. So I decided to write my own little e-mail with the address you provided:

Dear Mr. Atkinson,

For years, I have been troubled by the fact the Australian ratings board has not instituted a similar MA+ rating as exists in UK. It seems unfair to censor an artist's material in order to grant it classification in Australia for this is an infringement on the right to freedom of the speech. I understand your position that some of these more violent games are able to impact children's behavior, but this is a misconception. Several journals from around the world (The Harvard Medical School Center for Medical Health, The Journal of Adolescent Health, and The British Medical Journal) have shown no conclusive link between video game usage and violent activity. People who still claim that video games incite violence have been widely discredited in the United States, such as Jack Thompson (though mostly due to frivolous lawsuits against video game developers). Ultimately, the decision to purchase a violent video game should rest with the parents of children who play them. I hope you reconsider your position on admitting the R18 rating to the Australian Ratings Board and thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Christopher Jaramillo

just wanted to say how much i liked this letter. i think it's to-the-point and intelligently written. and cheers for sticking up for australia.
technically this law doesn't affect me directly, since i don't live in aus at the moment. but i hate that my home country is the only one with this really stupid, unnecessary and above all else unfair law

 

[FactualSquirrel]

Yahtzee would rather play a game that rewards you for time played rather than skill, aka WoW.

That's why I hate MMORPG's, it's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of time wasted.

Losing progression because of your stupid mistakes makes advancement more meaningful.

The game refuses to let you progress until you've shown some actual skill, not time wasted.

Dying is something you need to get over quick, otherwise you're not going to have fun.

Even with all the time "wasted" learning from mistakes, it's still not a "time sink".

You won't see a Soul level 100 player who didn't earn it.

Your Soul level and progression have far more skill value than your Lv.70 AoE Protection Paladin on WoW.

WoW only grants you levels based on time spent, not skill.

Action games grant you progress for trying to same 30 second sequence enough times to luck out.

Demon's Souls makes sure time spent and dumb luck alone don't get you meaningful progress in the game.

It's only hard compared to piss-poor easy games that are more concerned with getting everyone who bought the game through to the end.

The game has no obligation to have an easy mode because you don't feel like trying too hard.

You realized that with Skate 2, why not with a hardcore JRPG like Demon's Souls?

This isn't a game you'll be able to properly review with what little progress you made.
You were trying to rush through it to write a review, you failed, and had to just summary your short experience. That's not a real review, you didn't progress enough to even level up. Are you seriously going to say you reviewed a JRPG without leveling up once? How could you think you could make progress without leveling up in an RPG? You make no sense.

Yes, but what's wrong with the fps template of trying the same 30 seconds, I mean ok the luck thing annoys me, but if they did that with skill rather than luck it would be better. A "redo tis half an hour bit until you've memorised it" bit is purely about time spent, not skill. Also what's wrong with difficulty levels, if someone wants to see the end of a game regardless (well not completely) of skill then what's wrong with that. As long as they don't get "rewarded" with a 100 soul level then it's fine.

 

[SasugaRIVAL]

"The problem with Demon's Souls isn't that it's hard, but that it purposefully wastes player's time."

There is a difference between "purposefully wasting peoples time" and "requiring patience."

"Purposefully wasting peoples time" is what MMOs do. They make you grind out the same monsters over and over and over again for money or levels. They do this so it extends your play time and they can milk you for your subscription fee (granted, Demon's Souls also has an element of this, but grinding and farming is typically tangential to actual game progression).

Demon's Souls merely requires patience. The difference between the player who succeeds at Demon's Souls and the player who ragequits is whether they realize what Demon's Souls is trying to make you do. Survive. The dearth of checkpoints is a design choice. The reason for the checkpoint system is that they want dying to be a BAD THING. They want you to be careful and deliberate in your actions. I say all of this as guy who plays PC games all the time. I'm a quicksave addict - I use it all the time instinctively. Want to know what saving all the time does? It makes games piss easy. You run in rambo-style, because you don't care if you die, you have a save from five seconds before you ran in. There is no penalty. There is no risk. Therefore there is no tension.

If Yahtzee fails at Demon's Souls, I will not be one to claim that Yahtzee is a man who is bad at video games. He merely has no patience. His article clearly provides evidence of this. When he died, instead of slowing down and being even more careful, he sped up. He became increasing more frustrated, and of course, continued to fail.

Ultimately, the problem with Yahtzee is that he failed to realize that the problem is not with Demon's Souls, it is with him. He blamed the game instead of saying "what could I do to get past this." Demon's Souls is nothing if not fair. If you die, it was because you made a mistake. If you succeed it was because you did something right. Ultimately, YOU are the deciding factor as to whether the game is difficult. I died so many times while playing yesterday, because I kept making mistakes. I was using the wrong equipment, or I stepped on the wrong place, or I made a bad decision. When I stopped making mistakes is when I succeeded. It was my victory over myself.

I've played so-called "difficult" games on the PC and console both. But the thing is, they are never "difficult" so much as "cheap." You can play the same section over and over again, with the only way to win is by some miracle or stroke of luck. An example is Call of Duty 4 on Veteran difficulty. It didn't take me long to realize that it never really mattered how good at the game I was. It was just one big clusterfuck of perfectly thrown grenades or 100% accurate gunfire. When I got through a level, I never felt like "Yes, I did it. I succeeded." It was more like "Damn I was lucky."

Veteran CoD4 had many checkpoints, and so the only way to make CoD4 more difficult was to make the enemies unfair. Demon's Souls is also difficult game, but is so in a different way. The challenge is in the strict nature of the game world. If I had to choose between unfair enemies and lots of checkpoints opposed to fair enemies with few, I choose the latter.

 

[carpathic]

I have to agree with what Yahtzee says about the difficulty level. I am along time PC gamer only now picking up an Xbox controller and I recently discovered that shooters are bloody difficult. The mouse and keyboard seems so natural to me, because that is what I have always used. I used to be downright scary using that combo in shooters and I am only slightly better than incompetent using the xbox. But the challenge is enjoyable, and thus I still play.

I don't think that Demon's Souls would be fun, I don't have much time for gaming any more and my frustration level with games has ALWAYS been low. Games are a release for me, a minor escape from reality where my carefully constructed godlike character can really do some damage and has some Serious Latitude for Action. (Unlike real life where things like assault weapons based problem solving is frowned upon).

 

[Chunko]

Hey guys, how many of you spammed him?

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Good article. And if it was a joke, then I applaud you. I was well and truly had.

I can totally see the point of the fine line between challenging and just provoking frustration, and seriously, varying difficulty levels can't be that hard to put in to a game can they?

No, but then you get people like my friend Josh, who says that freaking Ninja Gaiden 2 on the hardest difficulty setting is "easy".

 

[The Deadpool]

Why? Because I'll still try to not die-- but maybe that's just me. Never even once did I do a berzerker charge on a Big Daddy in BioShock over and over next to a VitaChamber because, while I knew I could've, I wouldn't have felt like I really succeeded in beating the game if I had used that sleazy tactic.

Yeah, but you never turned a corner in fear of what's around because you also knew you'd get a do over. You never dodge rolled at the end of a forced run because you didn't know what was at the end. Never go into sniping stance just to see if there was any movement. Never go down a narrow hallway constantly turning around to see if some assassin BASTARD jumped up behind you. Never had your heart jump at your throat when enemies surround you, or feel the adrenaline pump of a fight or flight instinct kicking in when you see that a Black Phanthom invaded your game.

You may not have suicided at every turn just for kicks, but I'm damned sure you didn't fear for your life at every turn either...

The final boss of God of War kicked my ass (specifically the segment where Kratos has to protect his family). I had to do it an obscene amount of times

Funny, there was no boss that took me more than, say 3 tries in Demon's Souls... And yet, the game is somehow "too hard"...

Btw, how can you say you tried the same part an obsecene number of times until you finally succeeded and NOT see how checkpoints have made difficulty pointless?

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Hey guys, how many of you spammed him?

Not myself, unfortunately. I feel like I should, but I also feel like I shouldn't, though I don't know why.

 

[Chunko]

Hey guys, how many of you spammed him?

Not myself, unfortunately. I feel like I should, but I also feel like I shouldn't, though I don't know why.

Go for it, this is how democracy works

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Funny, there was no boss that took me more than, say 3 tries in Demon's Souls... And yet, the game is somehow "too hard"...

Btw, how can you say you tried the same part an obsecene number of times until you finally succeeded and NOT see how checkpoints have made difficulty pointless?

Okay about the Demon's Souls thing, I also, to a degree, feel that way, but uhh, explain to me how having checkpoints makes difficulty pointless.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Hey guys, how many of you spammed him?

Not myself, unfortunately. I feel like I should, but I also feel like I shouldn't, though I don't know why.

Go for it, this is how democracy works

True, but then I'm not even from Austrailia, so I kind of feel like I'm getting into other people's business when I do.

 

[The Deadpool]

It becomes a game of trial and error much quicker. "Oh, that didn't work, oh well, just try something else literally RIGHT NOW"

It's less strategy and skill and more memorization and luck. I've beaten Demon's Souls more than once and I've yet to memorize a single bosses attack pattern... I just didn't fight them often enough.

Despite popular belief, you will not die 15 times in EVERY SINGLE boss fight. Hell, you die more in the stage than in the bosses.

 

[snowman6251]

Why? Because I'll still try to not die-- but maybe that's just me. Never even once did I do a berzerker charge on a Big Daddy in BioShock over and over next to a VitaChamber because, while I knew I could've, I wouldn't have felt like I really succeeded in beating the game if I had used that sleazy tactic.

Yeah, but you never turned a corner in fear of what's around because you also knew you'd get a do over. You never dodge rolled at the end of a forced run because you didn't know what was at the end. Never go into sniping stance just to see if there was any movement. Never go down a narrow hallway constantly turning around to see if some assassin BASTARD jumped up behind you. Never had your heart jump at your throat when enemies surround you, or feel the adrenaline pump of a fight or flight instinct kicking in when you see that a Black Phanthom invaded your game.

You may not have suicided at every turn just for kicks, but I'm damned sure you didn't fear for your life at every turn either...

The final boss of God of War kicked my ass (specifically the segment where Kratos has to protect his family). I had to do it an obscene amount of times

Funny, there was no boss that took me more than, say 3 tries in Demon's Souls... And yet, the game is somehow "too hard"...

Btw, how can you say you tried the same part an obsecene number of times until you finally succeeded and NOT see how checkpoints have made difficulty pointless?

Because it was only one short segment. It was a total of about maybe 5 minutes of gameplay that I had to repeat until I did it perfectly and was allowed to pass. The segment was difficult and challenging and felt like an accomplishment when I beat it. If say I lost the segment and got sent back to the beginning of the temple that wouldn't be fun, just frustrating.

Then lets say I died in the next phase of the boss and had to do the whole boss fight over again. That'd just be a massive pain in the ass. I'm not even against no checkpoints in boss battles but having them there allowed it to be a much longer, more epic and varied fight without becoming frustrating.

 

[solidstatemind]

Why? Because I'll still try to not die-- but maybe that's just me. Never even once did I do a berzerker charge on a Big Daddy in BioShock over and over next to a VitaChamber because, while I knew I could've, I wouldn't have felt like I really succeeded in beating the game if I had used that sleazy tactic.

Yeah, but you never turned a corner in fear of what's around because you also knew you'd get a do over. You never dodge rolled at the end of a forced run because you didn't know what was at the end. Never go into sniping stance just to see if there was any movement. Never go down a narrow hallway constantly turning around to see if some assassin BASTARD jumped up behind you. Never had your heart jump at your throat when enemies surround you, or feel the adrenaline pump of a fight or flight instinct kicking in when you see that a Black Phanthom invaded your game.

You may not have suicided at every turn just for kicks, but I'm damned sure you didn't fear for your life at every turn either...

The final boss of God of War kicked my ass (specifically the segment where Kratos has to protect his family). I had to do it an obscene amount of times

Funny, there was no boss that took me more than, say 3 tries in Demon's Souls... And yet, the game is somehow "too hard"...

Btw, how can you say you tried the same part an obsecene number of times until you finally succeeded and NOT see how checkpoints have made difficulty pointless?

Yes, I did live in fear of death-- via suspension of disbelief. When I play a game, I try not to die. Bottom line. I took great pride in not losing a single unit in RTS games, even though it meant fuck-all in the statistics at the end of the level. Really, if I don't care enough to try to preserve the ingame personafication of myself... then what's the fucking point, anyway? Blowing shit up? Meh: that gets old fast, in my book. But I agree, I'm sure other people out there don't feel the same... but again, that is a matter of personal choice-- as I said in my original response, one of self control. Something I personally believe I should be the one to select, not something that is dictated to me by some developer who thinks they know what should be 'fun' for me.

The following is directed at all those championing distance between checkpoints, not just you DeadPool (so don't feel like I'm flaming you, ok?) :

Look, you can try to argue it as much as you like, but the length of time defined by the distance between checkpoints in a video game in re: the number of tasks you have to repeat is absolutely not a measure of SKILL. The following is absolutely, unimpeachably true: virtually any animal can be trained to accomplish a series of tasks if the trainers spend enough time and effort. Therefore, the 'mechanic' you are all defending is simply a measure of endurance... in this case, endurance of punishment for failure.

That's why it's a very lazy game 'mechanic', if you insist upon giving it that label at all.

The bottom line is that you are proving nothing by overcoming said interval, except that you are a) more stubborn than others, and b) have more time to spend in your efforts. What is exceptional about either of those traits??? Seriously?!? Before you respond, consider this: on each independant iteration, how can you truly differentiate between the person who skillfully overcame the obstacles, and the person who happened to be lucky enough to hit the right button (infinite monkeys, infinite typewriters aside)? If you can't, what are you really proving? That you're probably better than everyone else?

The truth is that the 'long time between savepoints' is a cheap way for game developers to make their product appear to last longer, but ultimately, it's the same mechanic at work while you play Solitare, for fuck's sake! "Eventually, you'll get it right." I find no satisifaction in that.

Before anyone goes on further about the validity of this game 'mechanic', I would strongly suggest that you go look up BF Skinner, Behaviorism, and rodent mazes. You may see some strong parallels.

One last observation: perhaps the draw of this element of DS is that there is some joy to be found in the 'elitism' of finishing a 'really hard game'? I can see that, but it's never been the draw for me (but I'll have to admit it clearly has widespread appeal given the explosion of online 'medals' and such); but if you enjoyed DS as a vehicle for entertainment and its worth as a game, and not just a means of lording your 'superiority at gaming' over others who couldn't (or couldn't be bothered to) complete it, then you would think you would at least endorse the idea of easier options, since that would allow for a much larger audience (and thus more sequels/offshoots/etc) than an "oMg!H4rdC0r3zzzz Onlee!" attitude.

Now if you all will excuse me, I believe there are a couple of sour ales in my fridge that need some tender loving care.