Deus Ex - Boss Fights

[WaysideMaze]

The complaint that boss fights aren't avoidable like they were in the original Deus Ex is very valid. However, there's comments on Shamus's blog from people who thought the steahtly approach to the boss fight (the first one, at least) was the easiest, with the lots of explosive barrels in the area making short work of him and the invisibility aug being used to get them without him seeing you.

So from a game mechanic perspective, the fights are diverse, with bosses being more than just beefoed up NPCs that you cover-based-shoot until dead.

For me, it's not so much that they weren't avoidable, just that there was only one route. Invisibility was useless early game, since the 3 second per battery limit and low battery recharge were a joke. Late game with more augments, sure, I used it all the time, but it was of no help in the first boss fight.
I honestly saw no stealth option to any of the boss fights.
The first one, I tried to stealth him but the second I shot he just zoomed right in on me and opened up with that automatic arm cannon. And whenever he couldn't see me he just flung grenades around the room till I died.
The second one did nothing but charge anyway, leaving no stealth option.
The third one, I suppose you could sneak around, but it was easier to just run around the edge in circle popping off shots when he appeared. And yeah there was a hack option for this boss, but he was the only boss where there was a second option.

To me, the bosses were precisely beefed up NPCs. They just felt like a strange design choice that detracted from the rest of the game.

 

[WaysideMaze]

I agree these bosses are bad but they aren't bad because they impede a stealth-er or hacker (Of which I was both).

The problem isn't that they're impossible for a stealth/hack run through. It's that a combat section is forced upon you. There is no stealth/hack option for these scenes, and it just feels out of place.
If I've sneaked through a whole facility full of cameras, armed guards and giant robots, to suddenly be stupid enough to get locked into a room with megaman and his wonderful arm cannon feels stupid. The boss fights should have included more options for completion.

The whole concept of a game built on 4 pillar concepts is that you can focus on one of the four pillars and it'll unlock new routes and tactics for you. But at some point you will have to delve into all four pillars. After all pillars support a structure... The boss fights were obviously the unavoidable combat pillar element.

I can demonstrate this by pointing out that you cannot talk your way out of every fight... In fact there are only 8 or 9 vocal exchanges that really change the progress of the game. And yet diplomacy was supposedly one of the 4 pillars. Yet if you spec for the social enhancer you will still have to stealth, fight or hack most of the game.
The same applies to hacking, combat or stealth... At some point you will have to delve into all four aspects of the game. So how is a boss fight such a huge injustice exactly?

You don't have to delve into all aspects though. If you aren't interested in social, fine, avoid it. You can fuck up every social aspect of the game and still complete it.

Same for stealth, you can run through the game screaming bloody murder and shooting everyone in sight, the game doesn't give a shit. Running around and shooting everything with a pulse is a viable game option.

Hacking? You never had to hack anything above some easy level 1s to actually advance the plot. I never dropped any points into the hacking augs and completed the game fine.

But combat? Combat is completely unavoidable. Solely because of these boss fights. And therein lies the main problem.

The 4 pillars gameplay doesn't (or shouldn't) mean 'All 4 pillars on one run!' but that you can mix and match which you feel like.

That aside... As shown in my vids above the boss fight mechanics were a joke... Seriously Eidos... In future if you can't afford to do it in house, don't bother. You outsourced the boss fights and still didn't give us upper heng, India or Montreal.

Here we agree

 

[Alfador_VII]

I tried and tried to beat the first boss for hours across a couple of days. I've been playing on the PC on normal mode, and well, nothing I try worked.

So I basically stopped the game right there and didn't go back

 

[rapidoud]

Shamus, from the tone of your article, you sound like a noob. I know on twenty sided you've said how you had to adjust your gaming style during your early days, but you make the fights sound as if they're a challenge by whinging about the same thing as everyone else without thinking about it (which you do not usually do, and Ben Croshaw doesn't usually either but his reviews have been pretty crap lately anyway). The boss fights are not hard, I built a 100% non-combat character (or at least, things that wouldn't help me in the fight) and on my 3rd try I beat Barrett, 4th try Fedorava, and Jaron I'm not up to yet.

 

[Caliostro]

Shamus you delightful bastard, you're back! I... I forgive you... Just never leave us again...

 

[Project_Xii]

Daymn, that article comes across with an awful lot of resentful whine. Especially when really, we're not talking about the same experience for EVERY person. Just the unprepared ones.

I personally only had problems with the first boss, and that's cause I was unprepared. I died once, I didn't blame the game. I blamed myself for not thinking ahead. Reloaded, back tracked into a previous room and grabbed a machine gun, and went back. Didn't die again. Bam, easy. After that, I simply remained prepared for anything. It seems obvious that the game would throw curve balls, and I should be ready to adapt to those.

So I maxed out damage resistance early and took a couple of flash/concussion grenades and a machine gun around with me: bosses never posed a problem again. It never hurts to be prepared, and what the hell else is a techno stealth/hacker going to carry around anyway? Mar bars and the two stun weapons don't take up that much space. Sinking all your skills into one kind of tree and expecting to breeze through the game without consequences is just laughable.

Also, I'm not sure if people are aware but there are tricks to killing the bosses pretty easily. Like stun-gunning the chick when she's standing in water, or punching the guy when he's jumping over a wall. For every person who whined about dying cause they charged straight at the boss or cowered to long, there's someone else who thought outside the box and realised how easy they could be, it seems.

 

[Mortuorum]

Great to have you back!

What really irks me is that Adam turns into a moron during the cut scenes leading up to the boss fights (and some non boss-related scenes as well). Trying to remain spoiler-free, there's one point where he just stands there like a slack-jawed idiot letting the target he's been stalking get away! In a game where player choice is king, that kind of railroading stinks of laziness. At least Commander Shepard would have had the "renegade trigger" option to punch them out rather than have to listen to their transparently-obvious weaseling.

 

[WabbitTwacks]

well, the bosses were actually pretty easy. the answer - frag mines. yep.

 

[unwesen]

There's a lot more wrong with Deus Ex than the boss fights. Some skills are useless. The game forces my character to be way dumber than I am in more situations than the boss fights. The plot twists are predictable from the very start scene of the game.

I'm of the opinion that the gameplay is extremely good, but the story framework in which they put the gameplay is rather shoddy.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

And no matter what you do you wind up fighting the boss because he haze the only key to the exist, while the game tries to allow for different play styles at least 3 times you have no choice but to fight, I find it reasonable.


Is it really that out of place? I do not think so, could they have done better yes but I find the AI(very deaf) and level design(lack of well polished level layouts) to be much more problematic than the boss fights. Hell the whole game could be better IMO.

 

[SoopaSte123]

Wooo Shamus! An article on an already covered topic, but good to see you back regardless.

The boss fights would have completely ruined the game for me if I hadn't discovered that 3 or 4 mines will kill any boss on any difficulty. Now its quick and easy. Still sucky, but in a less frustrating way.

 

[AbstractStream]

Hey Shamus! Great to see you back.
Awesome article

 

[WaysideMaze]

Daymn, that article comes across with an awful lot of resentful whine. Especially when really, we're not talking about the same experience for EVERY person. Just the unprepared ones.

Maybe the people are prepared. They're just prepared to hack security systems and bypass armed guards. Not go toe to toe with megaman.

I personally only had problems with the first boss, and that's cause I was unprepared. I died once, I didn't blame the game. I blamed myself for not thinking ahead. Reloaded, back tracked into a previous room and grabbed a machine gun, and went back. Didn't die again. Bam, easy. After that, I simply remained prepared for anything. It seems obvious that the game would throw curve balls, and I should be ready to adapt to those.

You blamed yourself for not guessing that you'd be locked in small rooms with super soldiers? Yes, we knew the game would throw bosses at us. We glimpsed them in the tutorial knowing we'd get to fight them. But on such shoddy terms?

So I maxed out damage resistance early and took a couple of flash/concussion grenades and a machine gun around with me: bosses never posed a problem again. It never hurts to be prepared, and what the hell else is a techno stealth/hacker going to carry around anyway? Mar bars and the two stun weapons don't take up that much space. Sinking all your skills into one kind of tree and expecting to breeze through the game without consequences is just laughable.

Unless you sink all your points into combat.
Every other part of the game allows for different approaches, be it sneaking past the guards, using the security systems against them or just straight up shooting everything with a pulse. The boss fights offered no alternative but to do as much damage as possible quickly.
There was no option for a stealth or hack approach.

Also, I'm not sure if people are aware but there are tricks to killing the bosses pretty easily. Like stun-gunning the chick when she's standing in water, or punching the guy when he's jumping over a wall. For every person who whined about dying cause they charged straight at the boss or cowered to long, there's someone else who thought outside the box and realised how easy they could be, it seems.

I wanted to play DX as a stealth operative. The game advertised it's options as such.
Why can't I take them out at a distance with my sniper rifle? Why can't I use my cunning to sneak up and decapitate them? Why can't I just sneak past and leave a damn bomb behind?

Nope, the game locks you in a room with metal gear junior and wishes you the best of luck.

I'm going to repeat myself again. The primary problem that myself, and many other gamers have with the boss fights in Deus Ex: Human Revolution is not the difficulty. Yes, I personally struggled but I finished it. The problem is with the poor design choice that seriously detracted from an otherwise brilliant game.

 

[kebab4you]

Thank god that I had stocked up on EMP grenades before the first boss fight, else I would most likely been stuck on him for another few hours T.T" But yeah, the boss fight really brought the game down.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

That really was a stupid list.

1. Forced to talk to bosses, even when playing game stealthfully.
2. Forced to fight bosses with guns only.
3. Damage your gun inflicts against bosses is weak.
4. Bosses lack intelligence nor reacts to your actions.
5. Bosses are flat, bland characters.

You had one opinion which was "i dont like the bosses or boss fights" which is fine. I hate the bosses, hate the way you have to fight them with guns, fact your cant sneak attack them or bypass them. Why you needed to make 5 points is beyond me. Hope your previous posts are better than this because this really wasnt good at all because no one liked the boss fights.

You could have just said "I don't like this article", why you spent so many words is beyond me. I hope your previous posts were better than this. CWUTIDIDTHAR?

I back up my opinion with reasoning, other why people like you will scream "Troll". An i do hope his previous posts are better because i liked his writing style and other people have said his really good at what he writes. I saw what you did there - i bow down to your incredible wit.

 

[The Diabolical Biz]

That really was a stupid list.

1. Forced to talk to bosses, even when playing game stealthfully.
2. Forced to fight bosses with guns only.
3. Damage your gun inflicts against bosses is weak.
4. Bosses lack intelligence nor reacts to your actions.
5. Bosses are flat, bland characters.

You had one opinion which was "i dont like the bosses or boss fights" which is fine. I hate the bosses, hate the way you have to fight them with guns, fact your cant sneak attack them or bypass them. Why you needed to make 5 points is beyond me. Hope your previous posts are better than this because this really wasnt good at all because no one liked the boss fights.

You could have just said "I don't like this article", why you spent so many words is beyond me. I hope your previous posts were better than this. CWUTIDIDTHAR?

I back up my opinion with reasoning, other why people like you will scream "Troll". An i do hope his previous posts are better because i liked his writing style and other people have said his really good at what he writes. I saw what you did there - i bow down to your incredible wit.

Yeah but your point and reasoning were pretty flawed. Your list up there, with points 1 through 5, were 5 different things. He stated that he didn't like the Bosses, and then gave 5, balanced, well-thought out points elaborating why. I really don't see what the issue is here.

OT: Good to have you back, Shamus! Nice article, as ever.

 

[Quellist]

They outsourced bossfights? FFS could that say 'do not care' any louder?

Havnt finished the game yet but i have done the first two bossfights, my impressions...

1) got between boss and pillar, he just kept shooting the pillar and allowing me to chain-headshot him every time he reloaded. Bit of a nothing really

2) died over and over again (Why is her Claymore, supposedly a knock off of the typhoon, so much deadlier than said Typhoon?) finally she got stuck in a wall and i just shot her while she stood there. Would call that worse than a nothing.

I just cant frigging wait for the 3rd Bossfight /sarcasm off

 

[Booze Zombie]

Poor boss guys, they would've had a backstory but all of the funding went into Adam's sunglasses.

 

[Ubermetalhed]

The boss fights aren't that hard if you think about it properly. They are the weakest part of arguably the best game to come out this year and on the whole aren't really that detrimental.

Also the game takes alot of pointers from the Metal Gear Solid (foxiest of the hounds achievement anyone?) series not only with its stealth mechanics but also in its forced boss fights. I have no problem with this being a big fan of MGS.

Furthermore, it's good to see there are no health bars it gives the fights a sense of panic and tension much like you found in alot of older games like resident evil for example.

And do you actually remember the original Deus Ex having good boss fights?

 

[Irridium]

The boss fights aren't that hard if you think about it properly. They are the weakest part of arguably the best game to come out this year and on the whole aren't really that detrimental.

Also the game takes alot of pointers from the Metal Gear Solid (foxiest of the hounds achievement anyone?) series not only with its stealth mechanics but also in its forced boss fights. I have no problem with this being a big fan of MGS.

Indeed it does, however the bosses in Deus Ex are only inspired by the "fighting" part, and nothing else. None of the characterization is there, they're just stronger enemies you're forced to fight.

Going to use MGS3 as an example, since it's my favorite.

Would you're showdown with The Boss be as amazing as it was if you were told nothing about who she is or the history she has? Would the revolver duel with Ocelot be as tense if you didn't know anything about him? The same with Volgin, Fear, Fury, Sorrow, End, and Pain.

I'm pretty sure most people would have been just fine with forced boss fights if the bosses were actually characterized, and made it feel like you're fighting a person instead of just another boss for good reasons other than "just fight because it's a boss".