Dev explains why Skyrim lag wont get fixed.

[The Pinray]

I've put in a bit over 150 hours into the game and I've gotten only very little lag during a fight with a dragon and a Dragon Priest (at the same time) with the help of

Spoiler

The three people you choose to recruit into the Blades. Kharjo, Lydia, and Marcurio for me. A really good team, by the way

So a bit too much going on at once so the game dipped a teeny bit for maybe a second or two. Nothing game-breaking.

This is on the 360, mind. I'll keep praying to the Eight Nine that it stays this way...

 

[Epona]

So basically, it's really, really, really bad memory management.

But yeah, it's either this or loading screens. I don't think developers these days have the time and resources to make a efficient file scream mechanism, especially for such a big game.

Yes and no. It's more the devs not being given ample time to come up with an engine solution for the PS3's memory constraints relative to the 360/PC due to the split memory pool architecture inside it. Can be explained but only through random numbers as I don't have exact figures on me

Let's say a game loads 128MB of texture and other graphical data and 128MB of general purpose data at any one time before savestate of objects is taken into account.
On the 360 you'll have 256MB of RAM free for your save to play around in due to it's single memory pool (512MB unified)
On the PS3 you'll have 128MB of RAM free to use for your save data. This is due to the way in which the RAM is set up with 2 separate and discrete 256MB pools with one for textural and graphical data and one for general purpose use. You can't use the remainder of the first RAM pool to complement the second one and so you have 128MB of wasted RAM that isn't being used and a smaller amount for the save data.

This does mean that in theory you could replicate it on the 360 but the effort required would likely be enormous ie in a 3 ingame day timeframe manipulate every single object in the world and change the contents of most if not all containers and NPCs and the positions of each companion and ai routine (set them all running for home from halfway acros the map at the same time etc)

SO it's really bad memory management and yes, they had time. They set their own release date and apparently hitting the cool 11-11-11 date was the priority. Let's not fool ourselves though, this problem has been around for 3 games, I think it's safe to say that given more time they still wouldn't be able to fix it.

If you can't program the PS3 properly Bethesda, don't release games on the PS3.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Bugs? In a Bethesada game? I'm so shocked my monocle popped out.

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

So basically, it's really, really, really bad memory management.

But yeah, it's either this or loading screens. I don't think developers these days have the time and resources to make a efficient file scream mechanism, especially for such a big game.

Yes and no. It's more the devs not being given ample time to come up with an engine solution for the PS3's memory constraints relative to the 360/PC due to the split memory pool architecture inside it. Can be explained but only through random numbers as I don't have exact figures on me

Let's say a game loads 128MB of texture and other graphical data and 128MB of general purpose data at any one time before savestate of objects is taken into account.
On the 360 you'll have 256MB of RAM free for your save to play around in due to it's single memory pool (512MB unified)
On the PS3 you'll have 128MB of RAM free to use for your save data. This is due to the way in which the RAM is set up with 2 separate and discrete 256MB pools with one for textural and graphical data and one for general purpose use. You can't use the remainder of the first RAM pool to complement the second one and so you have 128MB of wasted RAM that isn't being used and a smaller amount for the save data.

This does mean that in theory you could replicate it on the 360 but the effort required would likely be enormous ie in a 3 ingame day timeframe manipulate every single object in the world and change the contents of most if not all containers and NPCs and the positions of each companion and ai routine (set them all running for home from halfway acros the map at the same time etc)

SO it's really bad memory management and yes, they had time. They set their own release date and apparently hitting the cool 11-11-11 date was the priority. Let's not fool ourselves though, this problem has been around for 3 games, I think it's safe to say that given more time they still wouldn't be able to fix it.

If you can't program the PS3 properly Bethesda, don't release games on the PS3.

A fix for it would have required an entirely new engine as it can make itself appear on any version. That the PS3's memory architecture makes it appear both more frequently and easily does not imply that the can't code for it just that the architecture is extraordinarily unsuited for that engine and type of game.

 

[masticina]

So the fix is to play two hours or so.. then get out of the game. Take a break and go in again.

 

[surg3n]

I'm thinking that the developers would prefer to fix the problem properly, however the time it would take to do that might be the issue.

For instance, instead of having everything in 1 big save file, they could compartmentalize a bit - say have a save file for the details in a given area, like one big save file for Skyrim, then additional save files with item information for the towns. That way, it need only load the relevant save files, keeping memory requirements down. This would require a more dynamic save file format, but really it's an organisational problem, not a bug. I mean - is it a bug if I fill my memory til breaking point.

I remember on the console versions of Oblivion we had to purge every now and then, like let it clear out the memory and refresh it, otherwise the game got laggier and laggier. I imagine it's quite the same issue. If you leave an item lying around though, it won't stay forever, it gets cleaned up eventually - so I'm not sure why it's even a problem - unless that cleanup isn't doing it's job, like not de-allocating the memory when an item is destroyed. I'm inclined to think that this will be fixed by a patch, Bethesda is a big company, and if its such a big problem they will look into it... maybe after they get the first portion of DLC released first though.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Wait... Fallout 3 for the PS3 lagged if you played it too long?

I played FO3 on the PS3 for hundreds of hours. I reached 20th level and wandered the wastes attempting to find every map location. My save file got embarrassingly huge (now I know why). But the game never lagged on me.

Does it matter that I have one of the older, release PS3s?

 

[mGoLos]

Never ever pre-order a Bethesda game ... Same goes for Treyarch and their Dead Island fiasco.

It's time to talk with our money people, do NOT pre-order games from these publishers.

 

[Epona]

So basically, it's really, really, really bad memory management.

But yeah, it's either this or loading screens. I don't think developers these days have the time and resources to make a efficient file scream mechanism, especially for such a big game.

Yes and no. It's more the devs not being given ample time to come up with an engine solution for the PS3's memory constraints relative to the 360/PC due to the split memory pool architecture inside it. Can be explained but only through random numbers as I don't have exact figures on me

Let's say a game loads 128MB of texture and other graphical data and 128MB of general purpose data at any one time before savestate of objects is taken into account.
On the 360 you'll have 256MB of RAM free for your save to play around in due to it's single memory pool (512MB unified)
On the PS3 you'll have 128MB of RAM free to use for your save data. This is due to the way in which the RAM is set up with 2 separate and discrete 256MB pools with one for textural and graphical data and one for general purpose use. You can't use the remainder of the first RAM pool to complement the second one and so you have 128MB of wasted RAM that isn't being used and a smaller amount for the save data.

This does mean that in theory you could replicate it on the 360 but the effort required would likely be enormous ie in a 3 ingame day timeframe manipulate every single object in the world and change the contents of most if not all containers and NPCs and the positions of each companion and ai routine (set them all running for home from halfway acros the map at the same time etc)

SO it's really bad memory management and yes, they had time. They set their own release date and apparently hitting the cool 11-11-11 date was the priority. Let's not fool ourselves though, this problem has been around for 3 games, I think it's safe to say that given more time they still wouldn't be able to fix it.

If you can't program the PS3 properly Bethesda, don't release games on the PS3.

A fix for it would have required an entirely new engine as it can make itself appear on any version. That the PS3's memory architecture makes it appear both more frequently and easily does not imply that the can't code for it just that the architecture is extraordinarily unsuited for that engine and type of game.

So the engine isn't compatible with the PS3. So why release a game for a platform that your engine isn't compatible with?

 

[platinawolf]

Well,,, As you arn't supposed to sit longer than an hour at a time without taking a stretcher,,, Whats the harm? Inconvenient, yes. Good for your health? Maybe. But no matter the solution, the data has to be saved somehow. And Afaik the ps3 doesn't have any virtual memory together with a page-file to lean on. But cleaning up nhouses might help,,, But I do think npc's and quests take more memory than a spoon moved out of place...

Perhaps instead of saving the save-file as just the changes to the esm and esp they include everything? Or generate a file at start that it works of instead of having to check all of them?

Thus we'd end up with the esm + esp merged to a new esm. Thus you wouldnt have as many objects laying about. Does make it troublesome to save though as you'd have to check the merge-file against the esm's. Then again, discard any field that's identical to the esm then write whats left down into a small esp... Saving and loading would take longer but atleast it wouldnt have to keep the modifications in memory... But then we have the problem of new objects being created and old one's getting destroyed... Destroy an object and you still have to mark it out. Unless you want it to respawn.

Who knows, that might be what they are doing atm. Windows would deal with it by Virtual memory. Such a solution might work for the ps3 but question is if the hardware supports it, not to mention the OS.

 

[DSK-]

I have no lag on my PC, but the bastard crashes at times, and from what I've read in a another threads it's because of a memory leak inherent in the game due to the things you mentioned.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

if its such a big problem they will look into it... maybe after they get the first portion of DLC released first though.

It wont get fixed because these problems have been there since 2009 when FO3 was released.. and they've repeatedly decided it wasnt worth fixing. (and if you read the article you'd see it pretty much cant be fixed unless they make a completely new engine.)

Wait... Fallout 3 for the PS3 lagged if you played it too long?

I played FO3 on the PS3 for hundreds of hours. I reached 20th level and wandered the wastes attempting to find every map location. My save file got embarrassingly huge (now I know why). But the game never lagged on me.

Does it matter that I have one of the older, release PS3s?

Its quite a well documented problem.
and having the older ones shouldnt make a difference (remember the older ones werent old ones back when FO3 came out) I have a 40gb ps3 and by the time i started on the DLCs the game was unplayable.
I eventually completed all the DLCs but it was a nightmare. 50% of the time was spent in under 25 fps.

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

The game isn't broken, the console on which some play it has a memory structure that fails to work with an engine that extensive and intricate. If it was the engine, every platform should be having the problem.

Every platform does have the same problem. It is just more pronounced and easier to produce thanks to the PS3's memory architecture.

 

[Demix]

I have skyrim for the ps3 and I really haven't encountered any major issues.
Minor lag once in a long while and it's frozen ... only like 3 times (stretched across long hours of play I don't really see it as any big deal).

Then again I was able to deal with New Vegas up until lonesome road(I know it comes from Obsidian)so maybe that's my benchmark for lag.

 

[Epona]

I'm thinking that the developers would prefer to fix the problem properly, however the time it would take to do that might be the issue.

For instance, instead of having everything in 1 big save file, they could compartmentalize a bit - say have a save file for the details in a given area, like one big save file for Skyrim, then additional save files with item information for the towns. That way, it need only load the relevant save files, keeping memory requirements down. This would require a more dynamic save file format, but really it's an organisational problem, not a bug. I mean - is it a bug if I fill my memory til breaking point.

I remember on the console versions of Oblivion we had to purge every now and then, like let it clear out the memory and refresh it, otherwise the game got laggier and laggier. I imagine it's quite the same issue. If you leave an item lying around though, it won't stay forever, it gets cleaned up eventually - so I'm not sure why it's even a problem - unless that cleanup isn't doing it's job, like not de-allocating the memory when an item is destroyed. I'm inclined to think that this will be fixed by a patch, Bethesda is a big company, and if its such a big problem they will look into it... maybe after they get the first portion of DLC released first though.

I am thinking that if the developers really wanted to fix it properly, they would have. They set the release date, this isn't EA forcing BioWare to rush the game out the door. I think they don't want to invest the time and resources into fixing this and that is why they haven't. Maybe, but hopefully not, they don't have developers capable of fixing it.

See I think Bethesda is far too dependent on modders to fix their games and when they have problems on the PS3, there are no modders to do their job for them. Modders would have fixed the bugs in all of their games on the PS3 if they could but Bethesda either can't or won't.

I really do wish people would stop saying "they'll eventually fix it!". Two problems with that: 1) Their reputation suggests that they won't eventually fix it. 2) If they DO fix it and it takes them a year or two to fix it, then people who paid launch prices got ripped off

I also think it's BS to put out DLC when the game is broken.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I like Skyrim, I really do. But I'm tired of Bethesda and their crap. So I'm just going to get most of the trophies in the game, if not the platinum, and pitch it back to GameStop.

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

The game isn't broken, the console on which some play it has a memory structure that fails to work with an engine that extensive and intricate. If it was the engine, every platform should be having the problem.

If that game is broken on a PS3 because of the console's hardware, then Bethesda shouldn't have released Skyrim on the PS3 in the first place, and ripped off several hundreds of thousands of people. Just because the console doesn't agree with the game's engine, doesn't excuse releasing a busted game for us to buy. And if it's going to stay like this permanently, then Skyrim's PS3 sales need to be discontinued, rather than endorsing it with DLC that we PS3 users will never get to play without starting completely new.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

The game isn't broken, the console on which some play it has a memory structure that fails to work with an engine that extensive and intricate. If it was the engine, every platform should be having the problem.

Every platform does have the same problem. Its just that the Ps3 is less equipped to deal with the problem, so its more apparant on that system.

If you're trying to say it isnt Bethesdas fault that the ps3s RAM architecture is the problem, while that is true, Bethesda still chose to use their engine which they know doesnt work on the system. So they should either make a new engine, or not put the game on the PS3.

As it is now they're charging full price for a product that doesnt function as it should.

 

[Wolfram23]

Orrrr they could sub divide the save files by location?? Most of the items that can be moved around are in cities or dungeons. Seems like a fairly simple fix.

Save game -> save file 1-a, 1-b, 1-c, etc created.

Load game -> save file 1-a loaded. Enter new region -> save file 1-e loaded. Etc.

 

[Epona]

I read Digital Foundry's analysis [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps3-skyrim-lag] of this problem on the PS3 and it's pretty bad, dropping to 0FPS at times, but apparently if you only play for a maximum of 30 minutes then save and restart your PS3, the game is just about playable.

On the bright side, since the game and engine is fundamentally broken and can't be fixed (and it will just get worse and the game progresses and more content is added), anyone who bought it for the PS3 should be entitled to a full refund (under UK law and the Sales of Goods Act, Skyrim on the PS3 is technically "unfit for purpose").

Considering that these issues have existed since FO3, why have Bethesda 1) not fixed it. or 2) bothered porting the game to the ps3 when they know that the way their game works will almost definatly cause the game to degrade to a point of unplayability?

I think the reason they haven't fix it is because they can't. Todd Howard has admitted there are some things about their engine that they just can't figure out or fix, so instead they just avoid the problem (e.g. they couldn't get ladders to work, so there are no usable ladders in their games).

As for why they bothered to release it on the PS3 in such a broken state, perhaps it just didn't get picked up by the QA team. After all, the problem only manifests after a substantial amount of time and the QA team were doing 2 hour speedruns.

You can't really expect them to test a game for as long as any customer might play it, not when they had so much to do in so little time. Remember Skyrim had to be released on all 3 platform on 11/11/11 otherwise it wouldn't be special.

That article is a very interesting read, since it gives a better explanation that i did, ive edited it into my first post just incase people dont see your post.

And okay, they cant test the game as much as millions of players can at home, but surely if this would have come up? It took me 20 hours to get my save to 6Mb (reportedly the point at which problems start happening).. surely someone must have played for at least 20 hours?
And even if they didnt these problems have been recurring since FO3. My Ps3 Goty FO3 (wow alot of acronyms there) save file ended up somewhere in the region of 24mb, and alot of the DLCs i had to struggle through at 10fps (i was determined to play what i had paid for)

If they cant fix or change the engine to solve this problem, they really shouldnt be selling a broken game.

You mean they really shouldn't sell a game on a console that is incapable of running it, I assume.

Currently nearing the 70 hour, 400 saves mark and the only lag I get is around cities I havent visited in several hours, but only last a second or two.

So you doubt the problem exists?

 

[Deathninja19]

Sorry if this has been posted before, i did a search but didnt find anything.

Here's the Link http://www.gamersmint.com/ps3-skyrim-lag-problems-unlikely-to-be-solved-dev-comments

(EDIT: For the benefit of anyone who might see this post and not read into the replies, heres another link user Jamash posted that also goes into detail and has vids of the lag in question
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps3-skyrim-lag
It basically proves the game is broken, they load a 65 hour save which at times gets 0 fps, then a completely new save which is completely fine)

So basically a dev who worked on FO3 and FONV has shed some light on the memory issues that are causing alot of problems for players, especially on the ps3.

For those too lazy to go to the article i'll try and sum it up as best as i understand it:
Basically everytime you interact with something, the game makes a note of that change, whether its picking up an apple to murdering a guard, This is why save files increase so much over the course of the game (mine is currently at 15mb).

This is a problem because the game continuously keeps track of and loads everything in the game world even when you're not in the area, so all of your changes are draining ram meant for actually just playing the game.. meaning you lag.

He explains this probably wont be fixed, because like in FO3 and FONV its an engine issue, they'd have to completely redesign the game.. which wont happen in a patch.

The PS3 is also particularly susceptible because unlike the 360 which has 512mb ram which can be used for anything, the ps3 has divided ram, half for graphics half for processing. Meaning that a patch isnt going to fix the PS3 problems, and the game will stay broken for anyone who's put any time into it.

Considering that these issues have existed since FO3, why have Bethesda 1) not fixed it. or 2) bothered porting the game to the ps3 when they know that the way their game works will almost definatly cause the game to degrade to a point of unplayability?

I love Bethesdas games, especially Skyrim but i dont understand why they keep putting out fundamentally broken games and getting away with it.

Where would the refund come from the supplier or Bethesda, in fact would Bethesda be suseptable to UK law since it's a foreign company? I have no idea about this area of the law.

The thing that annoys me is that why isn't there more of an outcry about this, I mean you are lucky if you bought a non-PS3 version but people fail to understand if we let Bethesda get away with this then that gives them free reign to this this in the future and on another platform. This is a huge thing affecting all gamers but people are ignoring it because they got what they wanted so fuck everyone else.

These articles explain my point better:

http://www.gamesradar.com/high-horse-when-gaming-community-not-selfish-self-destructive-mess/

http://www.gamesradar.com/high-horse-broken-ps3-skyrim-was-inevitable-inexcusable-and-may-be-your-fault/