Diablo III's Auction House

[Worgen]

Ok Pardo.. ive got a real easy solution. Seeings how your the organization who controls the code of the game, Perhaps, maybe, you can code to prevent these transactions all together. Yeah go ahead, cut the connectivity cord. Wouldnt that be easier than making a system you are trying to sound like you dont want?

Yes...clear and blatant cash grab. At least have the decency to admit its a blatant cash grab.

How do you code in game for people logging onto the internet outside of the game, and giving account/credit card information to item traders?

Are you even aware of what the problem is? [http://www.d2ok.com/]

The easier way would be to remove the effect currency has on the market, or build a more stable economy, but that wouldn't fill their coffers as fast.

Who cares if a parent's credit card is emptied? Blizzard obviously doesn't.

The security of parents' credit cards is not Blizzard's responsibility.

I don't know about you, but I have never been tempted to steal from my parents.

In any event, a game rated M shouldn't have unsupervised, underage players anyway.

So double fail for parents with drained accounts.

because of the way the game type is setup, in an mmo items are supposed to be hard to get since it makes you play longer, this is a dungeon crawler though, its about tons of items and quickly finding new replacement items, with perhaps a bit of rareness to some really good ones, really there is only one type of item that goes into this sort of thing at all and it is the set piece item, which is a stupid idea for this game type anyway

So you've never played Diablo 2?

How many MF runs did you do on Hell Mephisto?

As someone who has literally done thousands of magic find runs, who's spent hours trading in D2, I can tell you that getting high tier gear without resorting to the black market is much more punishing in D2 than it is in WoW. For instance, just about any character who raids enough will eventually complete the high tier armor sets in WoW. On the other hand, it's impossible to get the ideal Hammerdin build in D2 without trading for duped Zod runes or a duped Enigma, or just buying one on the internet.

so your saying its a poorly designed game that ends up being much more of a grind then most mmos?

 

[UnusualStranger]

well, to the best of my knowledge the WoW AH hasn't ever been hacked yet - any security breaches are always on the client's end. Which, like you said, relies on people not being dumb.

This is why the Bnet Authenticator is the best thing ever

Well, idiocy is the cause of all security flaws in some method or another, usually because users are stupid, but thats another point altogether on how stupid people can be.

However, what good is this new system in claiming it is better for the users in keeping all their stuff safe when it really doesn't? While I realize this is slightly off the main topic, I find it somewhat disingenious for them to make such a claim that this is "More secure" when really it is all still on them to make sure that their information, passwords, and all that stuff stays safe. And forget those Authenticators, I prefer to stick with old fashioned install game and go.

That, and after a quick search I found http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1622904455
But...yeah, not sure how solid that proof is. But, its something I can find in very short notice.

 

[bakan]

No kidding. I played a fair amount of D2/LOD (and a good deal of D1+various expansions too) and there was a huge economy that all ran through e-bay.

The auction house is one of the things that worked in Hellsgate: London, and it would be nice to see something similar.

It is important to remember that WoW is competitive, at its heart. Diablo is cooperative at its heart. If you have better gear and I choose to play with you, it makes things go better for all of us.

I expect that 95% of the players will never touch the AH, but the 5% that do will be glad -- though it should be interesting.

New account advertising/defending the auction house - suspicious...

 

[John Funk]

Actually, look at EVE Online for an almost perfect analogue. I know plenty of people who still play EVE without ever dropping a cent on the game.

If one way of combating a problem doesn't work, then the answer isn't to keep trying it. It's to try something new - and this, at least, is a model that has had proven success in games like EVE.

Now I could be wrong about this admittedly but doesn't EVE Online offer only vanity items for real world money? I know you can buy game time with in game currency but as far as I know there is no way to spend real world money to buy items that make your character or ship more powerful. Of course as I said before my knowledge about EVE is limited but I think they came out recently and said there would never be "gold ammo" meaning paying money for a competitive advantage.

Unless I'm drastically wrong, you could always convert real money into PLEX -> ISK. Not directly buying items, but buying money which effectively is the same thing.

 

[Atmos Duality]

The only way to ensure this doesn't work is to attach a monetary price to every item and FORCE the players to use the Auction House and ONLY the Auction House.

This means that players must never, EVER be allowed to freely trade.

Otherwise, they can just set up an arrangement outside of the game and make the exchange there; just like they did in Diablo 2.

Sure, it opens up the potential for scams, but that's the nature of a Black Market.

 

[Uszi]

I play Diablo for the story and the gameplay not because I can validate my time by ripping people off for some chump change fuck that.

Fine. Do you think that the majority of players play like you do? Or do you think that you might represent a smaller portion of players who are still playing the game for the story and gameplay, even though it's 11 years old now?

I'm inclined personally to think that your position is the minority one, and that Blizzard shouldn't design games around the demands of smaller player demographics.

There isn't exactly a grey area here.

Not with the rainbow bright ponies anyway.

Har har.

?What?s the difference between a player that plays the game a lot and a gold farmer? They?re really doing the same activity. If you are doing an activity where all you?re trying to do is generate items for the auction house, you?re not making someone else?s game experience poorer. If anything you?re making the game better, because you?re generating items for the auction house that people want to purchase.?

'Farmers make the game better.'

Granted, that still doesn't imply that they're somehow turning it into a farmers game, which is the criticism at the heart of all of the, "Blizzard is encouraging farming," arguments. Or that they're encouraging it. Maybe you can use this as an argument that they're facilitating it, but I still don't see why this as a reason to cause a fuss.

We'll forget that you've just admitted (and been seconded) as having broke the terms and conditions of the EULA, and just go onto the credit card.

I guess the EULA is important to you? I sure as shit don't care about it.

At 11, you may have wanted an item so much (and have one just bought for you) that you see the card as a reward. It's a means to get it. Neither you or I would do it, but there are people who might...so *BANG*, Toothrow is yours for $4.

Well, why wouldn't you or I have done it?

That's a valid question, and my entire objection to your argument is that you and I were raised properly or supervised properly, and taught that using mommy/daddy's credit card without their permission is a serious no-no.

Therefore, if a parent allows access to their card, and here I'm including leaving your purse in Junior's reach unsupervised, without attempting any sort of moral lesson on the value of money or respecting other people's property, or failing in successfully delivering that lesson, then that is purely an issue parent side.

Blizzard instantly has their parent's money and they have no way of re-imbursement.

That's Blizzard's culpability.

That they don't reimburse players?

Quick question: Do you think that the no-reimbursement policy is borne of some greedy philosophy of Blizzard's, or do you think it's a pretty fair and understandable policy given the nature of the electronic goods they are selling? I'm inclined to think it is fair for the reasons they've provided in the FAQ and interview.

Quick question aside, I fail to see how they're refusal to reimburse non-fraudulent purchases makes them culpable.

If you have a PayToWin mentality...

They don't. You don't have to pay to "win," there are valid non-pay alternatives that result in winning. Therefore, they are not "PayToWin."

... you also have a CheatToWin mentality. And Duping. And Farming. And all the rest of the problems associated with games that work with real money.

This isn't really an argument, but rather a series of declarative statements. Why should I accept what you've said?

Lets say I grant, purely for the purposes of discussion, that hypothetically Blizzard has a "PayToWin" mentality. How does it follow that they have a "CheatToWin" mentality as well?

Or is that just your opinion? If so, then I merely disagree with you.

Now, if Blizzard are doing this, you'd at least expect them to take on the culpability of a bank like other MMOs [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/90348-MMO-Granted-Real-World-Banking-License], so that things like money laundering, farming and the like can be stomped on. Not profited from.

It's a legal minefield as is.

That probably would be nice. But I don't expect them to do it at all, and certainly not one of the least things I expect from them.

 

[viranimus]

Ok Pardo.. ive got a real easy solution. Seeings how your the organization who controls the code of the game, Perhaps, maybe, you can code to prevent these transactions all together. Yeah go ahead, cut the connectivity cord. Wouldnt that be easier than making a system you are trying to sound like you dont want?

Yes...clear and blatant cash grab. At least have the decency to admit its a blatant cash grab.

How do you code in game for people logging onto the internet outside of the game, and giving account/credit card information to item traders?



Are you even aware of what the problem is? [http://www.d2ok.com/]

Yes I am aware, and how do you do it? Simple. Cut the cord. How about Blizzard try making a game that isnt internet connected and we wouldnt have to deal with gold/item farmers, always on DRM (which dont kid yourself thats part of what it is) and other negatives that are practically inherent from online games.

Seems like the most logical, easiest and most effective solution to me, with little or no adverse effects. (though Im sure some people cant even conceive of playing this game without someone to help them)

 

[Uszi]

Yes I am aware, and how do you do it? Simple. Cut the cord. How about Blizzard try making a game that isnt internet connected and we wouldnt have to deal with gold/item farmers, always on DRM (which dont kid yourself thats part of what it is) and other negatives that are practically inherent from online games.

Seems like the most logical, easiest and most effective solution to me, with little or no adverse effects. (though Im sure some people cant even conceive of playing this game without someone to help them)

Alright.

If we want to discuss anecdotes about our own experiences with the game, I've invested maybe 10 hours tops in the single player experience, and countless hours online playing with friends and trading with strangers.

Do I have a right to demand, based on my own experience, that they game be designed a certain way for me?

How would blizzard choose between your and my competing interests?

What if the majority of players prefer to play online with others, and rarely if ever play by themselves offline?

 

[Uszi]

so your saying its a poorly designed game that ends up being much more of a grind then most mmos?

Diablo 2?

Hell yeah it was. If you think "grinding" in WoW is bad, you've never ground out 80-99 doing Hell Baal runs in Diablo 2. I'm pretty sure the design philosophy of every game since Diablo 2 has been, "Never again!"

Which is why I'm glad that D3 looks to be keeping the fun parts of D2 while fixing the parts that weren't fun as well.

 

[TheDooD]

I play Diablo for the story and the gameplay not because I can validate my time by ripping people off for some chump change fuck that.

Fine. Do you think that the majority of players play like you do? Or do you think that you might represent a smaller portion of players who are still playing the game for the story and gameplay, even though it's 11 years old now?

I'm inclined personally to think that your position is the minority one, and that Blizzard shouldn't design games around the demands of smaller player demographics.

So you're saying money is everything even if it breaks a game and splits the community. They should just design a game around farming, grinding, making a quick buck and basically throw away what made the game great in the first place the story.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

'Farmers make the game better.'

Granted, that still doesn't imply that they're somehow turning it into a farmers game, which is the criticism at the heart of all of the, "Blizzard is encouraging farming," arguments. Or that they're encouraging it. Maybe you can use this as an argument that they're facilitating it, but I still don't see why this as a reason to cause a fuss.

Because making money off the illegal activities of others is usually seen in a bad light?

I guess the EULA is important to you? I sure as shit don't care about it.

See above, and the parenting argument, and the Californian attack due to 18+ games.

Well, why wouldn't you or I have done it?

For you, you've said so. For me, everyone was still using pound notes.

Therefore, if a parent allows access to their card, and here I'm including leaving your purse in Junior's reach unsupervised, without attempting any sort of moral lesson on the value of money or respecting other people's property, or failing in successfully delivering that lesson, then that is purely an issue parent side.

So, from what I can gather, the entire onus of payment/age lies in the hands of the parent/guardian. An admirable notion, but not one the court supports at the moment.

Quick question: Do you think that the no-reimbursement policy is borne of some greedy philosophy of Blizzard's, or do you think it's a pretty fair and understandable policy given the nature of the electronic goods they are selling?

Would you say the same about Apple's policy of allowing you to use the same credit card for purchases up to 15 minutes later? Or Steam's ability to save the credit card permanently?

Steam CAN re-imburse. Apple...well...we all know Apple.

Quick question aside, I fail to see how they're refusal to reimburse non-fraudulent purchases makes them culpable.

I come to that later in PTW.

If you have a PayToWin mentality...

They don't. You don't have to pay to "win," there are valid non-pay alternatives that result in winning. Therefore, they are not "PayToWin."

But you can win faster with money. You are buying the ability to win. Therefore PTW. Simply having ways of doing it without money is swapping timesinks (And RNG drops) for dosh.

... you also have a CheatToWin mentality. And Duping. And Farming. And all the rest of the problems associated with games that work with real money.

This isn't really an argument, but rather a series of declarative statements. Why should I accept what you've said?

Well...are you disputing that Gold Farmers do wrong? or that they exist? Or that desperate first world players won't pay second/third world players to grind for them? I think I can find a number of articles for all of them. Duping etc. is even easier.

Lets say I grant, purely for the purposes of discussion, that hypothetically Blizzard has a "PayToWin" mentality. How does it follow that they have a "CheatToWin" mentality as well?

You're mixing what I'm saying. The players develop a PayToWin, get frustrated (as any MMO GM can tell you), and then go to "CheatToWin".

We already know that cheaters, hackers, dupers exist in all games, no matter what the security. Now, if this is happening with real money instead of fake money, then that's in the realms of theft. And if Blizzard bans someone unfairly (and a false positive is highly likely) then they've just "stolen" from that person.

Or is that just your opinion? If so, then I merely disagree with you.

And I've no problem with that. I'm just stating a likely scenario that Blizzard haven't sought to address as of yet.

That probably would be nice. But I don't expect them to do it at all, and certainly not one of the least things I expect from them.

Given the size of this, you would have thought that any company dealing with large amounts of real money would put their security first. Blizzard seem to have said "We let criminals bank with us as well."

You can see why people are concerned.

 

[StrixMaxima]

The raucus going on in each and every message board now tells me that players really do want their games to become enmeshed with their bank accounts. I could say a lot about it, but, looking at the previous posts, it seems kinda futile. People's minds are already set.

Good bye, Blizzard. Know that once I found you pretty.

 

[frehls]

hue

 

[TheDooD]

The raucus going on in each and every message board now tells me that players really do want their games to become enmeshed with their bank accounts. I could say a lot about it, but, looking at the previous posts, it seems kinda futile. People's minds are already set.

Good bye, Blizzard. Know that once I found you pretty.

The thing about this that I can't stand is that people aren't gonna be playing for fun. It basically becomes a job, they'll end up playing like bastards just to keep their profit margins high and basically shit on newer players keeping them down. The only way I validate making money of games is straight up gambling you can the other person bet and you have a neutral moderator. It's also why I only see Fighting and Sports games as legit means to making money through playing the game. Because everything is clear cut there's less bullshit then other means of making money in video games.

 

[-Samurai-]

Remember how in D2 gold was worthless and runes/items were currency?

Yeah, let's stick with that.

Keep your WoW in WoW, Blizzard. It's sad to see them destroy the Diablo franchise.

 

[Uszi]

Because making money off the illegal activities of others is usually seen in a bad light?

Specifically which illegal activity? I'm asking purely so I know exactly what we're talking about.

The gold farming sweatshops in SE Asia?

Or teenagers using their parents credit cards?

These two things seem to operate in different realms of moral space, at least to me, so I just want to make sure which one I'm addressing.

In regards to profiting off gold farmers:

Who is to say that the new policy won't be more effective in stopping gold farming than their old policies? The FAQ states that in order to receive cash for selling a gold or item on the AH, you'll need to pay blizzard three separate "nominal" fees which will be adjusted per region. Since the gold farmers are forced to act dependently on Blizzard, Blizzard might be able to completely shut them down by leveraging those fees, or other additional control structures.

That's all theoretical, mind. Have other games tried this approach? Do we have any track record for how gold farmers fare? I admit that I do not know.

The quote you found, wherein they compare farmers to dedicated players, might have indicated a desire to profit off of sweatshops, though this is your paraphrase and not stated directly. I am not convinced that this was an intentional implication of the quote. I would need to see this attitude in multiple quotes before I believe that it was more than poor word choice.

In regards to stealing credit cards and not reimbursing them:

Two things, strike me here:

ONE:
My take on reading the FAQ was that Blizzard has blanket reimbursement policies, and only does reimbursements in the case of serious fraud. Reimbursing parents seems to exist under the blanket of non-fraudulent purchases.

Having a blanket non-reimbursement policy seems to make sense to me, since it requires man hours and resources to process and investigate reimbursement claims, and because as a business model these micro-transactions often depend on impulse buys. If you don't have a relatively high threshold for which reimbursement claims you will consider, then you will quickly devote a lot of resources and man hours to losing money.

TWO:
These transactions are between players, and not between a player and Blizzard. Blizzard has, in my opinion, different responsibilities if it is the vendor and it refuses to reimburse a purchase directly from Blizzard itself. It has a different set of responsibilities when it is asked to preform a reimbursement for a trade between two players through the auction house.

To discuss the issue any further would seem, to me, to start to talk about RMT and micro transactions in general and whether or not it is fair to consumers. Since that discussion isn't really about Diablo 3 specifically, I'm not inclined to discuss it here

See above, and the parenting argument, and the Californian attack due to 18+ games.

Above I believe I addressed. Parenting argument doesn't seem to apply, and the California attack failed.

For you, you've said so. For me, everyone was still using pound notes.

Well then.

So, from what I can gather, the entire onus of payment/age lies in the hands of the parent/guardian. An admirable notion, but not one the court supports at the moment.

If that is the case then someone will take Blizzard to court and win. Nothing said here will affect that.

Quick question: Do you think that the no-reimbursement policy is borne of some greedy philosophy of Blizzard's, or do you think it's a pretty fair and understandable policy given the nature of the electronic goods they are selling?

Would you say the same about Apple's policy of allowing you to use the same credit card for purchases up to 15 minutes later? Or Steam's ability to save the credit card permanently?

Steam CAN re-imburse. Apple...well...we all know Apple.

Personally, I don't think they're greedy at all. I meant, if I can state it more civilly and directly, do you think that there are legitimate or logistic reasons for a non-reimbursement policy? Could you be convinced that there were?

But you can win faster with money. You are buying the ability to win. Therefore PTW. Simply having ways of doing it without money is swapping timesinks (And RNG drops) for dosh.

Well...are you disputing that Gold Farmers do wrong? or that they exist? Or that desperate first world players won't pay second/third world players to grind for them? I think I can find a number of articles for all of them. Duping etc. is even easier.

You're mixing what I'm saying. The players develop a PayToWin, get frustrated (as any MMO GM can tell you), and then go to "CheatToWin".

You're right, I was. I thought that you were arguing that Blizzard as a company had adopted a PayToWin philosophy by virtue of selling player achievement, which in my defense, is an argument being made in this thread.

Do players who begin to PTW necessarily jump to CTW? I don't think so. I think there might exist a slippery slope for some individuals, but certainly not for anyone. Certainly not for so many as to say boradly that if you have a PTW attitude you also likely have a CTW attitude.

I'm also not certain that one adopts a PTW attitude prior to a CTW attitude. Certainly many individuals jump straight to cheating.

We already know that cheaters, hackers, dupers exist in all games, no matter what the security. Now, if this is happening with real money instead of fake money, then that's in the realms of theft. And if Blizzard bans someone unfairly (and a false positive is highly likely) then they've just "stolen" from that person.

Now that is interesting, and not something I'd considered as of yet. And I suppose I could see how this would be an ethical problem for Blizzard if they continue to profit by it. Are you suggesting that they won't attempt to stop people from cheating, jacking and duping?

Would the attempt to control it mitigate the effect of profiting by it, even if it sill occurs?

And I've no problem with that. I'm just stating a likely scenario that Blizzard haven't sought to address as of yet.

And not one I had even thought of until you mentioned it directly. Though of course, we're talking about a couple of articles, so we do not know the full extent to which they've sought to address it.

Certainly, I would agree, something they should seek to address.

Given the size of this, you would have thought that any company dealing with large amounts of real money would put their security first. Blizzard seem to have said "We let criminals bank with us as well."

You can see why people are concerned.

I'm not sure they haven't. They haven't publicly addressed the issue, that is for sure.


Ultimately, your take on the whole issue has been about 100x more complicated than I initially assumed, so I apologized if my initial responses seemed over simplified to you.

Do you think that not using a RMT Auction House and allowing a 3rd party black market to creep up around the game is a better solution? Or do you think that the RMT Auction House could work if implemented better?

 

[Uszi]

So you're saying money is everything even if it breaks a game and splits the community. They should just design a game around farming, grinding, making a quick buck and basically throw away what made the game great in the first place the story.

Not at all.

I'm disagreeing with you that what made the game great was the story.

Like many other players, I played the trading metagame in Diablo 2 almost exclusively.

And to be completely reasonable, nothing about real money transactions indicates that Blizzard has abandoned the single player experience at all.

See above, and the parenting argument, and the Californian attack due to 18+ games.

(Kind of irrelevant to the subject at hand)
Hey now. I've been playing M-rated games since I was 13 (15 now), and I'm fine. My mother knows what's in the games that I play and I go out of my way to make sure she does.
I really take offense when people say "ALL PARENTS WHO LET THEIR KIDS PLAY THESE GAMES ARE HORRIBLE". It simply isn't true. Its not illegal or even wrong as long as the parent knows what their doing and know their child well enough to make an informed decision.
I'm still against stupid parents giving their 8-year old kids GTA, but don't go making broad, arrogant generalizations.

To be fair, that it is pretty irrelevent.

Root of all evil is essentially arguing your position, and I had been arguing that regardless of the reality of the situation, Blizzard's official policy should recognize that legally, someone younger than 18 shouldn't be playing the game, or if they are, they should be doing so with the blessing and supervision of a parent since the content is supposedly above their maturity level.

Not sure anyone is arguing that you're a bad parent if you're kid is playing an 18+ game at 11. I am saying that as a parent you're responsible for the outcome, having allow it to happen.

 

[Nurb]

"Spend and Earn Real Life Money"

So players pay full price for a game and spend 5 bucks a pop on items that will be made incredibally rare to create demand for an auction house instead of focusing on player experience while Blizz-Ack gets a cut... LOL fuck you, Bobby. I knew Blizzard would go into the shitter the moment Kotick got his greedy mits on new projects.

The more time goes by, the more I cheer on pirates.

 

[Levethian]

This literally makes Diablo 3 a Pay2Win game! If I wanted that, I'd go play an Asian Hack n Slash MMO

Valid fear, but
i) this is inevitable - 3rd party item-shops will exist in any case.
ii) how do you 'win' at Diablo 3?

Relieved not to have to use D2JSP or similar. Trading was such a time-sink.