DoA Dev Says Jiggle Physics Are Part of Japanese Culture

[RandV80]

Meh, I think he has a point. The game follows along with standard manga/anime styles designed for adolescent males. While these may get pretty bad and ripe for criticism it should be pointed out that unlike Western culture they're also just as good at giving adolescent females the exact same thing.

You just don't see it over here because the female side doesn't extend to video games. But while we've had our chainmail bikini babes for boys in place for decades and have only recently given girls sparkly stalker vampires, the Japanese have been way ahead of us here as they've always had both, comics that pander shameless to male and female interests.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

Actually I would probably play a game about ethnic cleansing because I'm frankly a morbid person that sort of thing peaks my "thats so fucked up" curiosity, not because I'm necessarily racist.

I think it's immoral, not to mention a complete waste of time, to attack people for liking or wanting to play a video game in the privacy of their own home. DOA isn't hurting anyone physically by existing nor is playing it.

 

[targren]

I did read it, still sounds like he is using the culture shield against criticism but perhaps I am misinterpreting or jumping to soon. I just really hate culture and tradition being used as excuses being to continue doing shit without thinking about it.

It helps if you keep in mind the long-standing dislike of "Westernization" among Japanese conservative-types. Pretty much this quote:

"We can't help if other cultures in other countries around the globe think that it's a bad representation. Within our nationality and within our national borders, we obviously have morals that we create our female characters from, but within our Japanese sensibilities, we've made those characters the way they are and we're not going to stop doing that"

That's not "We don't have to listen to us. It's our culture!" It's basically "Stop trying to make us do things your way, gaijin." His position isn't that he's using the "culture shield," it's that he feels that they don't need a shield. There is nothing about the criticism being levied at them that is objectively wrong, it's just "moral imperialism" and they're not going to bow to it.

Hiding behind the culture shield, as you put it, is just that: hiding. That response, tho? Them's fightin' words.

 

[GangstaPony]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

Actually I would probably play a game about ethnic cleansing because I'm frankly a morbid person that sort of thing peaks my "thats so fucked up" curiosity, not because I'm necessarily racist.

I think it's immoral, not to mention a complete waste of time, to attack people for liking or wanting to play a video game in the privacy of their own home. DOA isn't hurting anyone physically by existing nor is playing it.

So media can and should have literally any kind of content because it never causes physical harm? I can sort of agree with that but surely you must have a standard. Plus the argument is that saying "LOL! CULTURE!" is wrong. They are essentially insulting Japanese to the west.

 

[targren]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

And how are jiggling cartoon tits anything like "ethinic cleansing?" Your equivocation is bad and you should feel bad.

So media can and should have literally any kind of content because it never causes physical harm? I can sort of agree with that but surely you must have a standard. Plus the argument is that saying "LOL! CULTURE!" is wrong. They are essentially insulting Japanese to the west.

Yes. If it doesn't hurt anyone (which is NOT the same as hurting someone's feelings -- cowboy the hell up), then there's no legitimate reason for censorship.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Well the first thing to do is to determine if they are in fact undermining women by having attractive women and jiggle physics. Id say they are not. its a natural thing to find women attractive. the men too are attractive in this game so no.

are they being sleazy? sure. does being anything less than a prude make you a sexist. hell no!

some people just confuse open sexuality as sexism. overall I approve.

 

[Trishbot]

The continued pervasiveness is not due to a lack of awareness. It's due to a lack of relevance. They know how you claim you're harmed by scantily-clad women beating the tar out of each other or playing volleyball. Your claim that it's "outdated" is clearly false, since it's still present, and the thought that it's worth changing is entirely subjective.

You honestly think there is no harm in holding a view that women are nothing more than sex objects to be stared at? You REALLY think that is a standard, no only worth accepting, but embracing and propagating? You really think that just because it still exists, it isn't "outdated"?

Slavery still exists too. So... is slavery not "outdated"?

And Team Ninja's point is "We don't care what you think. Don't like it, don't buy it." And that's the right POV for them to have.

Going to bring up slavery again. If the mindset was "Don't like slavery, don't buy a slave" would that be the right POV to take? Or would you agree that stronger action is necessary?

I reject the notion that simply "not supporting it" is a solution. Sometimes a problem is big enough that you have to do more than that. You have to actively campaign against it.

Your issues are not their issues, and they won't be until their buyers agree with you.

Just like, again, slavery wasn't the issue of free white men who sought hard to end it. I mean, why did they have to get involved if they had no slaves, did not wish to own slaves, and nothing about slavery was affecting their lives? Oh yeah, because they knew it was morally wrong and worth doing something about.

Which you are not part of. You also hurt your own case in your original rant, when you didn't just insult the DoA aesthetic, but the gameplay. Congratulations, you're outed as not being a fan of the game already. Therefore, they have exactly zero reason to care what you think.

Lol. That's actually hilarious. I own every single Dead or Alive game (barring the beach volleyball games) because, as I said, I'm a fighting game enthusiast. Unlike some people, I actually DO try things to see for myself how they stack up. I won't judge something without knowing what it's about and experiencing it first hand, and I have the whole library of games... and it was through those experiences that I formed my opinions, not before. It was only after I played the games, experienced the gameplay, unlocked the outfits, and competed online that I made a reasoned and informed opinion on the game, its depiction of women, and it's gameplay. I walked away from Dead or Alive 1-4 very unimpressed... though Dead or Alive 2: Ultimate is actually pretty good, seeing as how it puts more emphasis on traditional tactics instead of counters and environmental damage.

When you then go on to imply that the people who DO like the game, who may like overstacked sexy pixels, are bad people, then you've become the aggressor.

I don't mind if you like big boobs. I don't. I HAVE big boobs. I like them.

My problem is when people emphasize those traits to the point that it drowns out the woman they're attached to and that's all they view them as. Has anyone here mentioned the personality of Hitomi? Anyone here talked about the backstory of Lei Fang? Anyone here interested in the hopes and dreams of Tina? No? Because they're NOT IMPORTANT to people's minds. They don't care. They're secondary, or non-existent, to the thong up their butts, the bunny ears on their heads, and the jiggling mountain of jello on their chests.

The problem is not "sexy women" but rather nothing BUT "sexy" women. There's nothing else there. That's not a healthy view of women. It's not. I promise you it's not.

And even that wouldn't be as bad, but the fact they claim that this view is "how Japan is" is insulting, narrow-minded, and reprehensible. It's not, nor should it ever be. Even if they don't have much respect for women, I know for a fact other Japanese people do. I'm dating one of them.

 

[Legion]

I also find it odd that random pointless violence in games is okay, but exaggerated breasts are morally wrong.

Dude, seriously. :/

As the great George Carlin once said, "I'd rather have my children watching people making love, than people trying to kill each other."

I don't get your point? One guy says something, therefore that must be the general consensus?

 

[Flight]

Personally, I never found the character models for the DoA series to be all that attractive. They're cute, I suppose, but that's the most I've ever gotten out of it. I don't mind jiggle physics (whee, jiggle!), until they get ridiculous - and DoA's jiggle physics are just that. I can't say I'm very surprised at the developer's response, though. It is Team Ninja, after all, and they've never struck me as being very forward-thinking.

 

[GangstaPony]

Certain elements of a nation's culture can in fact be morally wrong or backward.
In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to vote. It's part of their culture BUT unfair and wrong.

By who's standard? By basic human rights and equality standard.

 

[rbstewart7263]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

Actually I would probably play a game about ethnic cleansing because I'm frankly a morbid person that sort of thing peaks my "thats so fucked up" curiosity, not because I'm necessarily racist.

I think it's immoral, not to mention a complete waste of time, to attack people for liking or wanting to play a video game in the privacy of their own home. DOA isn't hurting anyone physically by existing nor is playing it.

I agree. according to my moral belief as long as people arent being treated wrong than the higher wrong is pushing your morality onto others.

Dan savage says it best here in regard to objectification.

Face facts, ladies: people always have and always will objectify the people they're attracted to. Men who wanna fuck women objectify women (at places like Hooters); women who want to fuck men objectify men (at places like Centerfolds). Gay men objectify other men (at places like Ashton Kutcher's asscrack), lesbians objectify other women (at places where Venus and Serena play tennis). The urge to objectify is universal, and so long as it's fairly and respectfully indulged, it's not offensive, not a problem, and not news.

And here

Memo to the idiot activists: It's 2003, not 1903. The historical problem with the objectification of women wasn't that women were treated like objects, ladies, but that women weren't treated like, or allowed to be, anything else. Now women can be objects when they wanna be (for fun, for love, for money, for a while) and then run off and be secretary of state or attorney general or the governor of Louisiana. Women are still objects--everything on earth, everyone on earth, is an object, no?--but they're no longer just objects. Women are objects and, oh, so much more.

So Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

Actually I would probably play a game about ethnic cleansing because I'm frankly a morbid person that sort of thing peaks my "thats so fucked up" curiosity, not because I'm necessarily racist.

I think it's immoral, not to mention a complete waste of time, to attack people for liking or wanting to play a video game in the privacy of their own home. DOA isn't hurting anyone physically by existing nor is playing it.

So media can and should have literally any kind of content because it never causes physical harm? I can sort of agree with that but surely you must have a standard. Plus the argument is that saying "LOL! CULTURE!" is wrong. They are essentially insulting Japanese to the west.

Nope. No standard, save what they have to concede so that Microsoft/Sony allows them to make the game for their platform and major retailers agree to carry it, and at that point that's just business sense. If you recall Manhunt 2 had to be edited for content because retailers refused to carry it initially.

Ya know I've never been to Japan, nor do I know really much about it. Frankly in a world where the Japanese are that overtly sexist, not saying they are, who am I as a westerner to judge? Different parts of the world end up creating different cultures because thats what works for them. Conversely if the women in that culture are unhappy with it it's up to them to change their own culture just like western women did here.

However, long story short, yes. I would of much preferred Team Ninja just defiantly state "We like tits. Deal with it."

 

[targren]

You honestly think there is no harm in holding a view that women are nothing more than sex objects to be stared at? You REALLY think that is a standard, no only worth accepting, but embracing and propagating? You really think that just because it still exists, it isn't "outdated"?

I deny its relevance to the conversation. "Jiggle physics" has nothing to do with that. You cannot conflate a dehumanized view of women with people who like to look at sexy/attractive things, without being intellectually dishonest.

And Team Ninja's point is "We don't care what you think. Don't like it, don't buy it." And that's the right POV for them to have.

Going to bring up slavery again. If the mindset was "Don't like slavery, don't buy a slave" would that be the right POV to take? Or would you agree that stronger action is necessary?

Bring it up again and it's still a strawman. Slavery harmed people. Bouncing pixel boobs do not. See above. I'll be ignoring it for the rest of my response now.

I reject the notion that simply "not supporting it" is a solution. Sometimes a problem is big enough that you have to do more than that. You have to actively campaign against it.

You have gone far beyond "campaigning against it" in this thread alone.

Lol. That's actually hilarious. I own every single Dead or Alive game (barring the beach volleyball games) because, as I said, I'm a fighting game enthusiast. Unlike some people, I actually DO try things to see for myself how they stack up.

Then, in my opinion, you hurt your case in the other direction. Clearly the problem is big enough for you to make noise over, but not big enough for you to stop giving them money. (I know others, like The Jimquisition, disagree with me on that, and acknowledge that it's an opinion).

I walked away from Dead or Alive 1-4 very unimpressed... though Dead or Alive 2: Ultimate is actually pretty good, seeing as how it puts more emphasis on traditional tactics instead of counters and environmental damage.

What, may I ask, made you think that 3 or 4 would be different than 1 or 2? I ask that sincerely.

And you should be pleased about this, then, since you now know in advance that DoA5 will be more of the same.

My problem is when people emphasize those traits to the point that it drowns out the woman they're attached to and that's all they view them as. Has anyone here mentioned the personality of Hitomi? Anyone here talked about the backstory of Lei Fang? Anyone here interested in the hopes and dreams of Tina? No? Because they're NOT IMPORTANT to people's minds. They don't care. They're secondary, or non-existent, to the thong up their butts, the bunny ears on their heads, and the jiggling mountain of jello on their chests.

Nobody has mentioned them because it's off-topic. Believe me, I could go on a tear about Tina as an American stereotype, but since we're talking about the devs telling the feminist furies to piss off, nothing other than the visual aesthetic is relevant.

The problem is not "sexy women" but rather nothing BUT "sexy" women. There's nothing else there. That's not a healthy view of women. It's not. I promise you it's not.

To you, that's a problem. To others, it may not be. Some people may want to just play a game and enjoy some eye-candy, and there is nothing wrong with that. Look at Skyrim. It's the exact same thing: a blank slate character, a lukewarm story, and lots of eye candy. The only difference is that in skyrim, the eye candy's geographical.

And even that wouldn't be as bad, but the fact they claim that this view is "how Japan is" is insulting, narrow-minded, and reprehensible. It's not, nor should it ever be. Even if they don't have much respect for women, I know for a fact other Japanese people do. I'm dating one of them.

I certainly won't deny that it was profoundly arrogant of him. On the other hand, arrogance is the name of the game on both sides of ANY idealogical chasm.

I have to point out that you were just as arrogant as well as "insulting, narrow-minded, and reprehensible" in your own response. If you honestly don't realize this, then might I suggest taking a few steps back for some introspection before "gazing into the abyss" again.

 

[GangstaPony]

Valve made the Half-Life, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress and Portal series while these dodo's are "LOL! JIGGLE PHYSICS!"
Shooting for the stars are we gentlemen? They remind me of COD but with boobies in place of guns.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Team Ninja, how's that depiction of women helping current declining Japanese birthrates?

Team Ninja, how's that depiction of women helping current declining Japanese birthrates?

Same sex train carriages to stop the rampart rape and sexual assault is a sure sign of a healthy gender culture lol.

Oh and lolicon.

Sorry kids, but none of that stuff is actually to blame, despite the fact that you desperately wish that it were. Although I'll happily admit that some of the things mentioned were indeed vile, that is if you're interested in something in way of a consolation prize.

Ready access to family planning services and equitable levels of female education, combined with a lack of immigration to help balance the books has invariably led, for better or worse, to sub-replacement fertility.[footnote]http://www.thesolutionsjournal.com/node/919[/footnote] [footnote]http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2012/4/how-civilisations-die[/footnote]Sure, I wouldn't say that they're helping Japan's demographical winter, but what you're doing is pointing at a little water on the deck of the Titanic and claiming that it is going to end up sinking the boat. While the hold fills with sea water.

I swear I do more research on these topics then most of the feminists end up doing.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

Actually I would probably play a game about ethnic cleansing because I'm frankly a morbid person that sort of thing peaks my "thats so fucked up" curiosity, not because I'm necessarily racist.

I think it's immoral, not to mention a complete waste of time, to attack people for liking or wanting to play a video game in the privacy of their own home. DOA isn't hurting anyone physically by existing nor is playing it.

I agree. according to my moral belief as long as people arent being treated wrong than the higher wrong is pushing your morality onto others.

Dan savage says it best here in regard to objectification.

Face facts, ladies: people always have and always will objectify the people they're attracted to. Men who wanna fuck women objectify women (at places like Hooters); women who want to fuck men objectify men (at places like Centerfolds). Gay men objectify other men (at places like Ashton Kutcher's asscrack), lesbians objectify other women (at places where Venus and Serena play tennis). The urge to objectify is universal, and so long as it's fairly and respectfully indulged, it's not offensive, not a problem, and not news.

And here

Memo to the idiot activists: It's 2003, not 1903. The historical problem with the objectification of women wasn't that women were treated like objects, ladies, but that women weren't treated like, or allowed to be, anything else. Now women can be objects when they wanna be (for fun, for love, for money, for a while) and then run off and be secretary of state or attorney general or the governor of Louisiana. Women are still objects--everything on earth, everyone on earth, is an object, no?--but they're no longer just objects. Women are objects and, oh, so much more.

So Stop feeling sorry for yourself.

More or less. I certainly don't advocate being a pervert and making other people feel uncomfortable. But what people do in the privacy of their own minds is their freedom to do so.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

'When you take that to countries outside of Japan, it tends to be very misinterpreted in some cases, people considering it sexist or derogatory etc."

How the hell is that misinterpretation. They are portraying women as sex objects. That's about as sexist and derogatory as it can get different culture or no.

I'm never going to buy a Team Ninja game again. I can see why Other M was such a trainwreck.

 

[Legion]

I don't get your point? One guy says something, therefore that must be the general consensus?

What? No. That's kinda ridiculous to assume. :/

I'm basically agreeing that it's strange that society has developed in such a way that we glorify violence and death, yet sex is some kind of immoral activity we should be deeply ashamed of.

The emote suggested you were disagreeing with me, sorry for assuming.