DoA Dev Says Jiggle Physics Are Part of Japanese Culture

[GangstaPony]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

 

[Negatempest]

I love Team Ninja. They know what they like may offend other people, but do it because it is what they enjoy and not for the sole purpose of offending anyone.

When was it the last time the gaming community went up in arms over Mortal Kombat going into detail for it's gore and violence? What of God of War 3 when they went into detail with the intestines flying everywhere? There were actual moments in God of War 3 where the violent detail was unnecessary but was done as eye candy for the western audience.

You know why those studios do what they do? Culture and doing it cause it's fun for them. Not for the sake of offending an entire society. So if I see some of you get your panties in a bunch because of Dead or Alive and their eye candy, I better see you make the same complaints for Mortal Kombat and God of War. They are both eye candy games and great gaming mechanics/gameplay.

 

[monev44]

In other, completely unrelated news, Japan recently disowned Mr. Hayashi as a citizen.

hahaha, that implies other Japanese people would be ashamed of his responses.... which they are not.

 

[Negatempest]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

I know right, like you would never support a game that focuses on violence and gore as well cause that is morally wrong too....oh...

 

[GangstaPony]

In other, completely unrelated news, Japan recently disowned Mr. Hayashi as a citizen.

hahaha, that implies other Japanese people would be ashamed of his responses.... which they are not.

They should be. He'd basically calling Japanese people a bunch of perverts.

On the other end of the spectrum you have Hideo Kojima... a true artist... of cut-scenes...

 

[Belated]

Okay, okay, I've had enough of this.

Sexiness is not "discriminatory", and it's not "sexist". There's nothing wrong with having a game with attractive characters. Indulging in your fantasies does not make you anti-woman. It just means that you have a healthy sexual appetite.

If Dead or Alive isn't allowed to have jiggle physics, what game is allowed? Huh? You people complain about big boobs in anything these days. I'm not saying that every game needs them, but let some games have them. Seriously, what dumbass started this idea that sexiness is wrong? I don't take issue with attractive men in games, so why is it wrong for women to be attractive?

Dead or Alive has never been a serious franchise for serious fighting game players. Dead or Alive 4 had terrible, highly unbalanced mechanics and god-awful unfair AI. If that game is any indication, then the Dead or Alive series isn't designed for tournament play. It's designed for style over substance. And sometimes, there's nothing wrong with that.

I fail to see how this game is oppressing women. Nobody plays a game like this and then magically starts thinking, "Huh, her boobs are pretty. You know what? I'm gonna go beat my wife." It doesn't work like that. If you're sexist, you were already sexist before the game. If you aren't sexist, the game isn't going to make you like that. The game is not sexist simply because the females are sexy. You can only call the game sexist if it tries to teach us that women are supposed to look like that at all times.

The Dead or Alive series doesn't mean to imply that all women should look like this. It's a game that just happens to be full of women who just happen to be attractive. Why aren't they allowed to be attractive? And why aren't they allowed to show some skin? Is there some specific line of exactly how much skin is or isn't acceptable to show? Who decides what that line is? How? Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Frickin' puritans.

 

[Trishbot]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

That is the mindset that bothers me. The "it's okay so long as I enjoy it" or "who does it hurt?" or "how dare you tell these people they're wrong!" I hate moral relativity like that, where no one draws a line in the sand and says "no, this IS wrong. This is NOT acceptable. This is NOT okay."

I just wish more people would stand for something instead of falling for anything, because right and wrong are now relative or something. I challenge their views on women, and I see no reason why I should shut up, accept it, and deal with the fact that it's okay for men to view me as nothing more than a walking collection of bouncy sex parts.

 

[GangstaPony]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

I know right, like you would never support a game that focuses on violence and gore as well cause that is morally wrong too....oh...

Random violence and gore has been in media since a long time.
You see it all the time on the news. Kids play cops and robbers pretending to shoot each other.
However, this has to do more with social issue's like sexism which is a real problem.

 

[Negatempest]

Okay, okay, I've had enough of this.

Sexiness is not "discriminatory", and it's not "sexist". There's nothing wrong with having a game with attractive characters. Indulging in your fantasies does not make you anti-woman. It just means that you have a healthy sexual appetite.

If Dead or Alive isn't allowed to have jiggle physics, what game is allowed? Huh? You people complain about big boobs in anything these days. I'm not saying that every game needs them, but let some games have them. Seriously, what dumbass started this idea that sexiness is wrong? I don't take issue with attractive men in games, so why is it wrong for women to be attractive?

Dead or Alive has never been a serious franchise for serious fighting game players. Dead or Alive 4 had terrible, highly unbalanced mechanics and god-awful unfair AI. If that game is any indication, then the Dead or Alive series isn't designed for tournament play. It's designed for style over substance. And sometimes, there's nothing wrong with that.

I fail to see how this game is oppressing women. Nobody plays a game like this and then magically starts thinking, "Huh, her boobs are pretty. You know what? I'm gonna go beat my wife." It doesn't work like that. If you're sexist, you were already sexist before the game. If you aren't sexist, the game isn't going to make you like that. The game is not sexist simply because the females are sexy. You can only call the game sexist if it tries to teach us that women are supposed to look like that at all times.

The Dead or Alive series doesn't mean to imply that all women should look like this. It's a game that just happens to be full of women who just happen to be attractive. Why aren't they allowed to be attractive? And why aren't they allowed to show some skin? Is there some specific line of exactly how much skin is or isn't acceptable to show? Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Frickin' puritans.

T^T A fellow gamer with a good view.

 

[targren]

You keep saying "self-righteous" like it's a bad thing. Well, yes, I do believe I am "piously self-assured" on this matter.

It is a bad thing. It means you lack objectivity, and your judgment cannot be trusted.

So, you ultimately throw your hands up and go "she's a horrible example anyway" and claim wearing blue underwear proves she's been heavily fanserviced and regarded to the same level of the Dead or Alive chicks (in their micro-bikinis) by that fact alone, while ignoring the fact that her sex appeal is, in fact, rarely emphasized.

Actually, I didn't "ultimately" do that. I did that right away, as did another poster. And you were the one who tried to minimize it without taking into account that, on the 16-bit platform, putting in the panty-flash would have been an affirmative decision (meaning the designers would have had to make the choice to put it in, rather than it being the default and needing to be taken out), opposed to just having the tights go up to the hips in typical barbie-doll fashion for the time/tech. No different than the DoA decision in spirit, just in extent and technology.

You're misusing quotes. That's not what I said, and I wasn't even referring to you specifically... But, by all means, keep calling my remarks "snotty" and "tantrums" and "self-righteous", because the best way to ignore a problem is to utterly dismiss the validity of another person's claims with remarks like that.

I acknowledged that I may have had the quote wrong, right in what I said. But your actual quote was actually worse, so I'm afraid you have no grounds for the wounded violet routine.

And I'm sure there is a market for your brand of sleaze, but I'm not part of that group of desperate, virginal, teenage male chauvinists that sniff their mother's panties to get off,

You may not have been targeting me specifically with it, nor even indirectly, because I'm not a fan of fighting games, but you DID insult everyone who DID like the game, for no other reason than the fact that they like something you don't offends you. And THAT deserves being called out on.

No, I think many of us want to have a discussion on the matter.

No, it's pretty well established precedent by now that "you" (your "us") don't want to "have a discussion" on the matter. You want to listen to other people agree with you, not call you out on your BS claims and poor behavior, and throw nasty labels like "misogynist" and "virginal teenage male cheuvanists" who don't think the way you do.

There's no room anywhere for convincing you that your position might be too extreme or that the other side's position may have merit. In that condition, you cannot have a "discussion." You can have an argument, a shouting match, or a 50 page flame war. But not a "discussion."

Point out why many of us, like myself, feel insulted and hurt by a pervasive and unchanging view of an oversexualized view of women in certain video games, and how, more than that, it is defended as part of their culture, heritage, and sensibilities. I don't wish to tell them to "f*ck off", but rather tell them why that view is outdated, harmful, and worth changing.

It's been done. The continued pervasiveness is not due to a lack of awareness. It's due to a lack of relevance. They know how you claim you're harmed by scantily-clad women beating the tar out of each other or playing volleyball. Your claim that it's "outdated" is clearly false, since it's still present, and the thought that it's worth changing is entirely subjective.

And Team Ninja's point is "We don't care what you think. Don't like it, don't buy it." And that's the right POV for them to have.

Your issues are not their issues, and they won't be until their buyers agree with you. Which you are not part of. You also hurt your own case in your original rant, when you didn't just insult the DoA aesthetic, but the gameplay. Congratulations, you're outed as not being a fan of the game already. Therefore, they have exactly zero reason to care what you think.

When you then go on to imply that the people who DO like the game, who may like overstacked sexy pixels, are bad people, then you've become the aggressor.

 

[Allthingsspectacular]

Wow, that's not insulting at all.

Newsflash: Eating fast food burgers, getting fat, owning a crap ton of guns and voting for republicans is all part of American culture!

*sigh*

 

[Negatempest]

[
Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

I know right, like you would never support a game that focuses on violence and gore as well cause that is morally wrong too....oh...[/quote]

Random violence and gore has been in media since a long time.
You see it all the time on the news. Kids play cops and robbers pretending to shoot each other.
However, this has to do more with social issue's like sexism which is a real problem.[/quote]

You are telling me that detailed gore and violence is media is not morally wrong. Other societies see America's love of guns and violence as bothersome as we see Japan and their love of boobies. What I am saying is that over the top violence and gore in games is just as morally wrong as sex, nudity and boobs in video games. Did you just tell me that violence and gore is not as morally wrong as viewing sexy women in video games?

P.s. Great quoting is acting up now T^T

 

[DementedSheep]

The excuse should never be ?culture? whether it for or against something. It should be because of X reason or even just be honest and say you happen to like/ dislike that sort of thing.

Except that's par of what he did say. They like it that way. Don't just read the headline, read what he said. The point is that, just because you think it's wrong does not MAKE it wrong. That's the thing that no don't gets in these situations. They all think they are so righteous and pure that their values and opinions are the "One True Way."

You can say "they shouldn't do that" all you want. Once you say "they must not do that," or start demonizing those who disagree with you, then you've become a fanatic and lost any moral high ground you may have had to begin with.

I did read it, still sounds like he is using the culture shield against criticism but perhaps I am misinterpreting or jumping to soon. I just really hate culture and tradition being used as excuse to continue doing shit without thinking about it.

 

[Scorpid]

The Japanese are different culture and it's not our duty to go around fixing something in Japan when it's not violating one of our most sacred cultural ideal. Which is the value of human life.

I want to walk this line carefully, but this story was brought to my attention by my boyfriend... who is very Japanese. He was born in Tokyo and moved to America in high school. And it was his rant to me about how upset he was that these guys spoke as if they represented all of Japan and all of Japanese men shared their view that got me so inflamed as well.

And I will say this; maybe it's different for men, but as a woman, I DO feel the value of my life is lessened when men like that hold a view that views me as less than equal, less than the sum of my intelligence, personality, ability, and upbringing, and sums me up exclusively by how pretty I am and how big my breasts are. I feel less than human; I feel like cattle.

And I believe that is a view worth challenging.

I agree with you I think women shouldn't be treated as sexual objects. But I can't, and you shouldn't presume you know their culture well enough to be able to tell them what their culture should be like. Your boyfriend has the knowledge to understand and critque his culture, you might have more right then some people since you're so directly involved with someone who knows what and how to critique his culture, but most people myself included don't have the knowledge of what to critque, beyond the symptom we find disgusting.

 

[MoD1212]

The only way something like this could ever be considered sexist against man is when a women says so.
Remember that a ?idealised? portrayal of a female body is always a male sex fantasy and therefore degrading to women while a ?idealised? athletic male body is always a male power fantasy.

Now while that a valid point, it's kinda sexist in its own right. Why does the "idealised" female body have to ALWAYS be a male fantasy and nothing else? There are plenty of men who's preferred female body look nothing like that, and there are females who strive to look like that( and I mean in a eating right, going to the gym way - not the fake/starved look).
The reverse can be said about men, just cause it might be a power fantasy for SOME of us, doesn't mean it isn't a sex fantasy for others

The thing is gaming was such a male dominated industry for so long, that everything in the industry is associated with pandering to the male demo, even if there are true gamer girls that are fans of the same games.

 

[Negatempest]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't try to ruin the joy someone else might get out of it.

Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

I know right, like you would never support a game that focuses on violence and gore as well cause that is morally wrong too....oh...

Random violence and gore has been in media since a long time.
You see it all the time on the news. Kids play cops and robbers pretending to shoot each other.
However, this has to do more with social issue's like sexism which is a real problem.

You are telling me that detailed gore and violence in media is not morally wrong. Other societies see America's love of guns and violence as bothersome as we see Japan and their love of boobies. What I am saying is that over the top violence and gore in games is just as morally wrong as sex, nudity and boobs in video games. Did you just tell me that violence and gore is not as morally wrong as viewing sexy women in video games?

P.s. Great quoting is acting up now T^T

 

[Cavouku]

Now I only sorta-read the first two pages, and I suspect most people do that as well, so this may never be seen, but dammit, I like putting my two cents into controversial or potentially controversial subjects! Call it a sickness.

I saw some people say they're just pandering to a certain demographic. Not the worst defense, but you have to think outside the box with that kind of defense. A game where you kill nothing but non-whites (read: a number of real games. I believe CoJ: The Cartel did this, but I don't know for certain) could be said to pander to the specific demographic of white-supremacists and get the same defense. They're different, obviously, and they shouldn't be treated as equals, but that defense CAN be applied.

Anyways, I never personally cared to complain about DoA, because I don't care (simple enough), but if some people think it's sexist, I can understand that. The problem was... I don't think that Mr. Hayashi (or am I reading his name the wrong way around? I get confused about that sometimes, sorry) has done anything to help his stance.

The best defense would probably be "We hear you, people who don't like our game, but frankly, business is business, it's not all that bad, and we're better off not changing things in this regard." Trying to pin it on his culture just makes him look like he's trying to hide behind his culture, makes his culture come across as openly sexist, and I like to believe that's not the case... or at least, it's seeing a revamp in modern Japanese society.

Plus... wait, what? Japanese women do not tend to have grossly over-proportioned melons, naturally at least. There are always outliers, but outliers nonetheless.

The problem isn't the issue (mindfuck), the issue... or problem(?) is his attempt at defending his place. And frankly... it wasn't a good defense.

And a poor defense let's the other side score more points. Or knock you out faster, fighting game and all that.

 

[Legion]

I challenge their views on women, and I see no reason why I should shut up, accept it, and deal with the fact that it's okay for men to view me as nothing more than a walking collection of bouncy sex parts.

You honestly think men play these trashy games and then think it is a realistic portrayal of women?

That line of argument is the one the media uses when they claim violent games cause real life violence. The idea that one cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality.

Most guys who play that kind of game are very unlikely to have it affect their perception of women, no more than a person playing GTA will have it affect their perception of acceptable driving.

I also find it odd that random pointless violence in games is okay, but exaggerated breasts are morally wrong.

That's not to say I support the guys argument, but the idea that these games are morally wrong for their portrayals of women suggests we are supposed to take them seriously, which we aren't. If anything, games such as Mass Effect are worse, because they show women with large breasts and impractical clothing to show it off, all the while set in a world that is supposed to be taken seriously. That's more likely to have an impact than some trashy beat em up.

 

[GangstaPony]

[
Even if that joy comes from supporting something morally wrong?
Something that has been a huge issue not just in games but the world in general?
Would you play a game supporting racism or ethnic cleansing if you had fun playing it?

I know right, like you would never support a game that focuses on violence and gore as well cause that is morally wrong too....oh...

Random violence and gore has been in media since a long time.
You see it all the time on the news. Kids play cops and robbers pretending to shoot each other.
However, this has to do more with social issue's like sexism which is a real problem.[/quote]

You are telling me that detailed gore and violence is media is not morally wrong. Other societies see America's love of guns and violence as bothersome as we see Japan and their love of boobies. What I am saying is that over the top violence and gore in games is just as morally wrong as sex, nudity and boobs in video games. Did you just tell me that violence and gore is not as morally wrong as viewing sexy women in video games?

P.s. Great quoting is acting up now T^T[/quote]

Any sort of violence is morally wrong but that fact is that world culture accepts it as a part of daily life. People scream at each other, that's violence. Oh sure maybe there are games where you tear someone's intestines out and wear it as a scarf but even that is often censored or given restricted distribution/ratings.

But sexism is a social issue that should not be a part of our daily life.
Japanese culture is NOT about perversion or love of boobies. It's more complex.
Oh sure they have a Penis festival but then so did the Greek's (virility festival).
Ajanta Elora Caves in South East Asia have naked depictions of gods and goddesses.
But that originates from ancient times, customs and religions.

But you can't say, LOL! WE PUT GIANT TITTIES IN OUR GAMES CUZ LOL CULTURE!!