Darken12 said:
lacktheknack said:
You seem to have mistaken "Boobs Exist" with "I think women are of less value than men".
And you missed my point completely. You know what all those boobs have in common?
They're on display. Most of those games involve violence or running/climbing/sliding around, and the presence of cleavage, bared midriffs, arms and legs are extremely impractical, and practically no woman in their situation would walk around with so much skin showing (as layers of clothing could prevent scrapes, friction burns, cuts and abrasions). In fantasy games, those women either need to wear proper plate like the men do, or (if they aren't armoured warriors) they should be wearing standard mage robes (that cover her from neck to toe without exposing her skin to cold weather or the rough and tumble of adventuring) or proper leather armour (again, like the one the males wear). There is a reason that women (and men), IRL, when they are involved in extreme sports, wear outfits that cover them practically from head to toe. Stripperrific outfits are impractical, uncomfortable, they can very well hinder movement, and serve no purpose but to titillate the male gaze.
lacktheknack said:
The Saints Row: The Third example, for instance, was a derp on my part... and yours. Shaundi is not a sexist portrayal, unless you're going to tell me that being aggressive and having boobs are incompatible. A better example would be mentioning every single female gang member wearing slinky getup (almost true), or the strippers in the hideouts.
It's not having boobs. It's the unnecessary cleavage. But if you think it proves my point better, go with the gang members or the strippers.
lacktheknack said:
Mentioning Catwoman, however, is entirely missing the point. As in, firing in entirely the wrong direction. Same with Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Bayonetta, and even Lara Croft.
Right, because Catwoman's zipper needs to be that far down, Cybill needs to walk around with a cleavage that would get her fired if she was an actual police officer, Bayonetta needs to be wearing that skin-tight catsuit (again, with cleavage) and put herself in suggestive poses, and Lara Croft cannot possibly wear anything like Nathan Drake (who does more or less what she does, and in similar climates).
lacktheknack said:
My original point was the lack of "stereotypical secondary chunk of meat", the vast majority of your examples are anything but. I admit there are examples in there I didn't think of (How did I forget Duke Nukem?) but the majority of your list was compiled with entirely the wrong idea in mind.
So you're emphasising the "secondary" part, then? Because that's usually a different kettle of fish. Alan Wake's wife, for example, is more or less a plot device that motivates him. Furthermore, I can save myself a lot of quoting and copypasting by just linking you to TV Tropes in The Smurfette Principle [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmurfettePrinciple]. I usually try to stay away from TV Tropes out of distaste, but occasionally it proves useful as a compiler of lists.
Furthermore, take any game with a male main character and see if the women in the game are three-dimensional, fully realised characters that have the same depth and vibrancy as the main character or if they're just two-dimensional carboard cutouts meant to titillate, provide the hero's motivation or progress the plot.
I will also link to this article, What Women Want In Female Video Game Protagonists [http://www.themarysue.com/what-women-want-in-female-video-game-protagonists/], which highlights some of the issues I've touched (
"If I?m a soldier, I want to look like the rest of my squad. If I?m escaping a zombie apocalypse, I want shoes I can run in and clothes that minimize the likelihood of getting bitten. If I?m a warrior of song and legend, I want a set of plate mail that will silence a room when I walk in. None of these things require a trade-off of my sexuality or femininity." and
"And if she?s in an outfit that says ?sexy? while all her male counterparts are in outfits that say ?powerful,? that?s a red flag ? especially if she?s the only woman there." and
"honestly, how many more gruff, emotionless dudes with dead wives/girlfriends do we need?").
lacktheknack said:
Also, I dislike Jimquisition and disagree with much of what he says. This week is included.
So you support the idea of censoring any possible discussion of an -ism in a videogame? Of reacting violently whenever someone raises what could be a valid point (or not) instead of allowing a calm discussion to take place? Because what he's saying is quite sensible.
I'm still talking in not-all-caps, aren't I? If I wanted to censor discussion, I'm doing a particularly terrible job at it, aren't I? I don't think I should have to accept that games are oh-so-sexist, though.
For each of your counters, I offer a counter-counter:
Catwoman: Her sex appeal is one of her weapons. She knows it disarms guys a bit, and uses it to full effect. That's not sexist, that's a character choice with rationale.
Cybil: She's *SPOILER* a tailor-made-to-you hallucination to make you uncomfortable. When I played, she didn't have the epic cleavage. She's the way she is because you made her that way, not because she reflects anything in reality.
Bayonetta: She exists in a completely alternate universe where her attacks are powered by sex appeal. I don't really approve, but I'm 99% sure it ain't sexist.
Also, Lara Croft spends the majority of her time in gear that covers her breasts just fine. Even when she rips her flaming jacket off in Legend, she's wearing a turtleneck sweater underneath. A TURTLENECK. The only REALLY fanservicey moment I can think of in the last three games was the "Japanese corporate work party turned Yakuza sting" level.
And no, I'm focusing on secondary AND "chunk-of-meat" mentality. Lead women are rarely, if ever, viewed as a sexual object and little else (even Lara Croft has motivations and backstory). That's already a good sign. And even if a woman's breasts ARE on display (although you and I seem to have difference ideas of what "on display" means"), it's not an instant indicator of "chunk-of-meat" mentality. As I mentioned before, Shaundi is somewhat sexualized, but she's her own character who has a distinct personality and helps drive the story.
I also take issue with your "Physical Activity = Full Covering" idea. You've never gone climbing, have you? Clothes are annoying, clothes get in the way, clothes catch on to things and wreck your plans. Lara's classic outfit:
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQ_n-Q4pify843CN7A9PAg03A441kG2W6E8-y2wxNNzR4eNNRy
... while admittedly skimpy in the legs, is ideal for most of the situations she's in. She didn't fight lots of gunmen in the first game, it was just her against the elements, animals, and rocks. She would have been scuffed, yes, and she probably has legendary callouses on her knees, but that's approximately the type of outfit I would wear if I went cliff climbing again (except with kneepads and shorts instead of hotpants). Formfitting is good in these situations, because it's immensely less likely to catch on things.
Same with Faith from Mirror's Edge, which I mentioned a while back.
Also, I like how you mention Dragon Age Origins, because while a few woman are underdressed, MOST OF THEM AREN'T. Even better, people always mention Morrigan's barely-there clothing, but no one remembers that you can put her in something else that's more practical. It's up to you, you know. The only consistently underdressed group in the game is the lust demons, and gee, I wonder why?
Taking up your challenge of male leads, females supporters:
Starcraft: Success! (If anything, Kerrigan is MORE interesting than Raynor.)
Street Fighter: Success! (NO one is well developed.)
Myst: Success! (Catherine is more competent, more interesting and more headstrong than Atrus. If you read the books, it gets even more so.)
Cave Story: Success! (Again, lack of development.)
Those are just off the top of my head, now I'm having that awkward moment where I'm browsing my library of games and not finding ANY games that fit your stereotype, by having an unknown protagonist (Darwinia), a selectable protagonist (Tropico), a female protagonist (Alice), or no real female supporting protagonist (Rayman). I guess "Gish" fits your stereotype, if you can consider a blob of tar who doesn't say anything to be an interesting lead character.
And regarding "What Women Want In A Character": Again, Dragon Age, XCOM, Tropico, Mirror's Edge, later Elder Scrolls, Fallout... the list actually does go on.
(I'm realizing that my dislike of FPS games might be clouding my perception of what's popular, since most stereotypes that people talk about seem to be originating from there, a genre I never play.)
). I don't know a man (like I said, there may be some exceptions, but I don't know one personally) in the technology business, that is saying "what is this woman working here? Better she get's back into the kitchen!". It's not happening! 
