Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

[BehattedWanderer]

If the "failure" of Mass Effect 3's final minutes has done anything, it has proven exactly how successful the rest of the trilogy was.

Fantastically said, Daniel Floyd, if only there were actually people who didn't realize how amazing the series had been up until that point. Even the best whiskey, perfectly aged in the greatest of oak casks, can have a soured opinion if the aftertaste leaves you wondering if they slipped in some rancid horse urine there at the end. Congratulations him on completely grasping the thing that made us all so angry, then saying that he wouldn't talk about it.

No closure, no account, no affirmation, and an ending theme completely disjointed from the rest of the point of the narrative would make anything fall flat. They want to end it on a bleak note, great, fantastic, it's their option as creators. People can ***** about that all they like.

Know what else would have proven how successful the trilogy was? If it had ended efficiently. Does anyone think Star Wars or Lord of the Rings would have been improved with a botched ending, where we could say "Wow, what a great series. Except for the ending that was so crap it threatened our memories of the rest of the trilogy." No. There's no call for an ending so messed up, when everything else in the series has come together to be an actual, honest to gods epic, a tale of impossible odds, of victories and deaths, of noble sacrifice and of heroic deeds.

 

[Tanakh]

That depends on whether or not you believe the adaptation must be totally faithful to the source material. I don't.

But if you are going to change it, then improve it. HAL was improved, so i am fine with that, the ending was horrible! You don't mix hard Sci-Fi with surrealism, not to mention fucking up the continuity for the next 4 books.

That said, i am totally cold to the psychodelia and most of the 60's, so YMMV. I am just grateful Clark ignored that hippy nonsensensical end in the rest of the series.

 

[klaynexas3]

it was a well written ending, and was like a tragedy. i did like that i could keep playing after the new ending, but still, i feel that prevents it's ability to have any closure and have any effect on me.

Hehehe really? Really? I remember there was kind of a "BLAT" noise, and you were a little bit of dust, and then you got some really perfunctory aftermath paragraphs, and then the game was over. I guess you could argue that the CONCEPT of the sacrifice was kind of moving, but the execution was so hilariously awful I actually can't stop laughing while I'm writing this.

No...Broken Steel was necessary, unfortunately.

i remember it differently, maybe because i haven't beaten it in a few years, but i remember things getting woozy and me dying of radiation poisoning, and yeah, the narrator comes and talks about what happens after this, but i'm dead, not like i can really play through the after math. and i guess that's a matter of opinion on whether the continuation was necessary or not, because i think the game was fine enough as was before hand

 

[217not237]

Hey artistic hacks, guess what. This is a game, a product one buys and spends money on.

Stop sucking on Kubrick's wang and get over yourself. 2001 was not a good movie, stop trying to force that on us.

See, when I'm talking about people being anti-intellectual and immature, this is the sort of thing I'm referring to. How is this guy helping anyone?

Well, to be fari Kubrick's movies seem to be alwasy shitty as adaptations of the source material. 2001 was a great film, but if you read the book start to wonder if Kubrick ever did.

I hate to get off-topic, but the movie was released before the book.

 

[Tanakh]

Debatable. I preferred A Clockwork Orange myself, but 2001 still had an impact on me.

Debatable my ass. You would need to be a genious of Robert Johnson proportions to combine two things as diametrically oposed as surrealims and hard sci-fi ending up with someting better.

I guess he had little choice though, the ending of the book open, it was obv planned as a series, and back then trilogies were out of style. So for an ending that he needed to devise it was good enough.

 

[Tanakh]

I hate to get off-topic, but the movie was released before the book.

Yep, it was, and?

 

[Jodah]

So, I have a question for the "games are art" folks out there. Let's say, just for a second, that games are art. Why then, are they the only form of art in the world that is immune to criticism? Nobody is forcing Bioware/EA to change the game. All people are doing is voicing their complaints, some better than others, but nobody has a gun to someone's head forcing them to change it.

Why then, is it a terrible strike against artistic integrity when gamers say "No, this is shit. You should change it" but it isn't when someone says it about a painting or music?

 

[Gigatoast]

Is anyone going to acknowledge that maybe the idea of consumers holding a studio responsible for their actions might be a good thing? This will lead to developers being more inclined to accept real fan-feedback because it proves that we are still a powerful force to be reckoned with, and they'll be less likely to cut corners in places where it matters.

I'm very disappointed in EC for falling into that tired 'artistic integrity' bulls**t. It doesn't apply to a commercial product, and it does not justify a failure to meet the promises made before release, and Bioware will not set a 'dangerous precedent' by fixing their crass mistake, end of story.

 

[Tanakh]

Are we really going to argue taste?

Yes we are! How can you justify changing from a hiperrealistic Sci-Fi narrative (as realistic as Sci-Fi can go anyway) to a mystic based one in the last minutes of the film? And PM me, we have derrailed this long enough

And by we i mean I, have that nasty habit on boring threds

 

[217not237]

I hate to get off-topic, but the movie was released before the book.

Yep, it was, and?

Well, your comment said it was a poor adaptation.

 

[Tanakh]

Well, your comment said it was a poor adaptation.

It is, the movie is based on the book mate. The movie also happens to be realeased before.

 

[Tanis]

I hope Bioware's DLC screws up the ending even MORE...just to piss off all these crybabies.

 

[RatRace123]

I have to respectfully disagree with the EC guys.
For this whole argument about artistic integrity, I've thought of a new point to bring out.

EA likely doesn't give a shit about artistic integrity, and I highly doubt that Mass Effect 3 is the game that it is because EA respected Bioware's artistic vision. I'm still convinced that multiplayer was put in just so they could charge for an online pass.

So, I'm pretty sure Bioware's artistic integrity was already shot by EA, and even if it wasn't, I don't think that adding on to the ending (I highly doubt that they're actually going to change it completely, and any DLC is probably just going to add onto the ending.) does anything to damage the message or theme that they were trying to get across. And even if it does, they sacrificed a coherent ending for artistic integrity, and given the choice between the two, I'd take a coherent ending.

 

[Snotnarok]

I'm amazed people are still flipping out about .01% of the game, when I'm sure more than 60% are replaying the game regardless.

They'll make a new ending that goes with DLC just like Fallout 3 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, then everyone will be upset they have to pay for the new ending like it's something that hasn't been done before.

 

[Berenzen]

So, I have a question for the "games are art" folks out there. Let's say, just for a second, that games are art. Why then, are they the only form of art in the world that is immune to criticism? Nobody is forcing Bioware/EA to change the game. All people are doing is voicing their complaints, some better than others, but nobody has a gun to someone's head forcing them to change it.

Why then, is it a terrible strike against artistic integrity when gamers say "No, this is shit. You should change it" but it isn't when someone says it about a painting or music?

It isn't immune to criticism anymore than books and movies are. You are perfectly allowed to say "I really didn't like the way you did this ending, I think you could have handled it better."


However you are not allowed to demand them to change it after the work has been released- if they ask you for your opinion before the product is released, you can tell them that they should change it- they are asking you to take part in their artistic vision. After the piece is released, everybody else is not taking part in developing it- they are experiencing it. There's a bit of a difference. As far as I know, there hasn't been anyone that had DEMANDED an ending be wholly rewritten after the piece has been released in any medium aside from video games.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

In all seriousness, who the fuck gives a damn what the Extra Credits guy thinks? Of course he's going to say "Oh Games are art! You don't control the narrative" because he's all artsy fartsy and pretentious... well hell, that his gimmick, and he does it well and it's entertaining.

That said, fans were sold a bill of goods with the first two games and left with a flat ending. I understand why they're pissed, this isn't like being angry about the Star Wars movies. Going to see those flicks in the theater cost what? An hour of your time and ten dollars?

These games run 60 dollars and require a serious investment of time, so it is perfectly reasonable to be pissed over the lame ending because it generally feels like Bioware just decided to phone it in. It's not just the fact the ending was three flavors of vanilla, or that we don't get a New Vegas style epilogue. I could accept that, it's that Joker and the FUCKING CREW THAT WAS WITH YOU DOWN ON THE PLANET SUDDENLY BREAK REALITY AND THEIR CHARACTER BIBLES AND FLEE!

Now re-writing the ending? It wouldn't break an artist "integrity" because, hey speaking as an artist, the whole point is to manipulate people to get a reaction out of them you desire. So unless Bioware's whole goal was to seriously piss everyone off, they FAILED as artist.

I'm surprised he didn't support the idea of a kick-starter page to get a new ending made. Then once they had enough money, and keep the extra.

They also offered to refund anyone who gave it to them, outlined a specific plan for it related to their purview and, most importantly, didn't tell people to give over the requested amount in the first fucking place. So yeah, full story.

It was a tongueNcheek joke dude. But they did go ahead and run away crying from Escapist and the fanbase here. So screw 'em. #Offtopic

 

[RatRace123]

You know what? You're probably right about that. But doesn't that make Bioware something of an underdog?

I don't think any of us (who weren't born with fetal alcohol syndrome) really believe that Bioware made that ending just to say, "Haha, take that, fuckwads!" If you have a grievance, by all means say so. But assuming that Bioware release a DLC to alter the ending, would it be so bad if they simply tied up the loose ends, provided closure and otherwise stuck to their guns?

That's all I want out of a DLC. I think it'd be cool if they added more content after the end, and personally I like the indoctrination theory and would like to see Bioware latch onto that.

But... if the content only cleared up some loose ends and add closure, I'd be more than OK with that.

 

[Alex Mac]

You have 2 minutes to explain why asking for a different ending was disrespectful..

Because a majority of people who are supposedly just "asking", aren't merely asking.

 

[Gigatoast]

I'm very disappointed in EC for falling into that tired 'artistic integrity' bulls**t. It doesn't apply to a commercial product, and it does not justify a failure to meet the promises made before release, and Bioware will not set a 'dangerous precedent' by fixing their crass mistake, end of story.

Technically, all Dan said was that if Bioware want to add an addendum for closure, they're free to do so. He just hopes that if they do so, they stand by their decision not to go with a more predictable sort of ending. What's so disagreeable about that?

Well because Mass Effect 3's ending isn't a subjective thing, it is fundamentally flawed in a multitude of ways and the entire series suffers from it's existence. And that's not just me talking out of my ass either, you know we've all poured hundreds more man-hours into explaining exactly why the ending doesn't work then Bioware's writers (or singular writer, if the rumors are true) spent conceiving the thing in the first place.

I'm not sure, but I don't think Dan addresses the fact that (yes I have to bring this up) Bioware promised they wouldn't pull this kind of thing weeks before launch, knowing full well that what they where saying was completely inaccurate and misleading. That's a manipulation and abuse of their fanbase that puts an ugly stain not only on the company, but also on the industry as a whole.

Hiding behind the impenetrable umbrella of "artistic integrity" in order to defend it is an insult to art itself. Does this mean studios now have the right to cut corners where ever they want and claim it was an artistic choice? That's a much more dangerous precedent because then the consumer no longer has a say in the product they are sold.

And this is fairly subjective, but the 'pseudo-philosophical twist ending' isn't really a creative risk, nowadays it's just a predictable as a happy ending. Funneling all your choices into a single outcome wasn't a decision made for the sake of art or originality, it was made because the alternative (which I remind you was Bioware's promised goal) was to make a multitude of different endings based on the player's decisions, some happy, some sad, some tragic. Anything less is a complete betrayal of the series' key themes and selling points, not to mention a betrayal of Bioware's fanbase.

What all these critics and internet personalities don't seem to grasp is that this was never the intended ending to the series, it only exists because someone ran out of time/money or someone got lazy. This isn't a case of fans simply demanding a different ending, this is a case of a studio being pushed to accomplish what they had actually set out to do.

 

[Elate]

Again with the games are art crap, I liked EC but god did that artsy stuff get old.

Games, sold for profit, with the intention of selling them for profit during creation, are a product first and art second, as such they should cater to the customer first, and then artistic vision second.

When Bioware starts producing games for free, then they can have all the artistic freedom they want.