Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

[Seanfall]

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Same here...their just repeating what so many others have brought up. I've lost respect for so many people these past few weeks it's really disheartening. It's not that they don't agree it's that they role out the same tired defenses.

Captcha: The all-new Chevy Sonic, fuck that. *reloads* The All-new Chevy Sonic...well fuck you too then.

 

[MoNKeyYy]

Another question: how does Mass Effect 3 being "art" absolve it from criticism? Anyone care to explain this?

Quite simply, it doesn't. It's just that it's getting the wrong kind of critisism and people are badly over reacting. You can say "I didn't like that ending." Hell, you're probably well within your rights to call it a bad ending if you have good reason (I wouldn't know, I haven't played it). I take grievance with the people who seem to take an ending they dislike personally, like the artist went out of their way to flip them off with the ending.

The thing about an ending is that the artist is trying to say something with the ending. Every part of a work of art is, for better or worse, deliberate. It was a concious choice by the artist. You can't demand that an artist change their vision or say that their interpretation of their own work is wrong. And you certainly can't whine and ***** about how the artist "owes" you something, because they don't owe you shit. You chose to pay the amount of money you paid. You chose to invest the time you did. The artist doesn't owe you anything for choices that you made yourself. Whine and ***** about how you didn't like it all you please, just don't act like an entitled fuckwit.

 

[Seanfall]

Wow, i even read his posts in that annoying voice he uses in his videos.

Anyway, it's kind of funny that people are so outraged at the fans compromising BioWare's creative vision, but don't say a peep about EA's influence on the company. So BioWare are perfectly fine with having a 2 year development cycle, cutting up their games for DLC and inserting idiotic cameos, but this is what crosses the line?

EA are the frontmen of the games as a service idea, cutting corners for profit is their goddamn company policy. The work BioWare produce under them is not art, calling it art is an insult to every developer that invests genuine love and craftsmanship into their games.

* applauds* this this right here, thank you. Thank you!

 

[TorqueConverter]

Games as art? They can be I suppose. It's going to depend on a game by game basis. I would say Journey looks very artsy and supposedly moves the player to feel some emotion. Sounds like art to me. I haven't played ME3 but from what I have seen, it doesn't look like art to me.

I don't want to sound like a condescending dick, but I just don't understand why the gaming community was mostly willing to sit back and let EA pull the day 1 DLC fraud and then turn around and jump down Bioware's throat over a game ending? People fail sometimes. Bioware failed in delivering a stellar ending to ME3. Sometimes it's good to wait to buy a game to avoid being blindsided by such things.

That day 1 DLC, however, was malicious and unethical. It may have been a minor infraction but the significance was huge and unfortunately has been swept under the rug with all this ending talk. Unless Bioware invented time travel, that DLC is content removed from your game and sold on the side. They short changed you and then had the audacity to sell it back to you are a jacked up price.

The line has been crossed and tone has been set. This practice will continue and grow in scale. The fire has been started. Are we going to ignore it until our house burns down or are we going to snuff it out now?

 

[Gigatoast]

Season 1, episode 14: Suited for Success. I have the whole series on my iTunes. Yes, I'm one of those people.

Well.. I certainly wouldn't know anything about thaaaaat. *cough*entiretyofseason2prepurchasedonitunes*coughcough*

 

[Knight Templar]

"they made an artistic choice."
All available evidence suggests they did not, two people slapped something together in the final moments. The ending was planned out on scrap paper by one guy. If that guy was the original lead and this vaguely resembled what they had planned then that is something more than nothing. But right now, there doesn't seem to be any vision of any kind.

Furthermore I do not understand why it being an "artistic choice" means they should ignore fans. I take it Fallout 3 isn't art, the Alex Rider book series isn't and so on. Or are these things are and being art and possessing some level of artistic vision doesn't mean they should ignore what fans want. Bioware has always been about trying to give fans what they want, doing so correctly or not they are trying. For them not to listen would be something new.
Remember the Mako? An entire gameplay aspect, a full third of the games variety was removed because people did not like it. Or have we all agreed that gameplay isn't the product of any artistic vision?
People are going overboard with their demands that Bioware fix the utterly broken ending, that is clearly true. But does that mean that Bioware should act differently and not listen?

People have every right to say "You promised us X, Y and Z and we got none of that. The ending is on every level broken. You should correct this mistake". Bioware listening to people and correcting their mistake isn't bad or new, not to art, not to games, not even to Bioware.

EDIT: Because I like this video and feel and deserves more views, and it is on topic.

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those with slow browsers

 

[Amaror]

What makes ME not Art, when Bioware listens to the fans?

Books are generally considered Art, right?
So in Germany there's a series of books called "The Dwarfs".
The Author wrote 3 books and said that this series was finished after the third book.
This caused an outcry among fans, because the third book ended on multiple Huge cliffhangers.
So finally the author caved in and Wrote an ENTIRE 1000 PAGES BOOK, to wrap everything up and to give a clear ending.
Are Books less Art, of course not.
So what's your problem.

 

[SageRuffin]

I appreciate you presenting your argument in that manner.

I'm just being honest.

But for me at least, Bioware hasn't surrendered their control of fans, they still as the ultimate determinant. But there is nothing to say they can't realize that they fucked up and say "we messed up and by using the unique advantages of this medium we are going to correct this mistake".

Therein lies part of the issue: BioWare isn't coming right out and saying "Yeah, we fucked up. Sorry." Instead, they're saying everything else and so you have threads like this.

I'm sure you already know this, but there's a fine difference between "promising closure" and openly admitting that good idea you had on paper didn't translate very well in application. From my own experience, people will have far more respect for you in the latter case than the former.

Like to me, it's impossible for the Fans to make them change as the fandom simply doesn't have the ability to make demands. The best they can do is make requests.

I think we are pretty close honestly...

The news stories - hell, even some posts in this very thread - I've read definitely say otherwise. I'll kill it here since I feel we both have said too much on the subject already.

 

[KeyMaster45]

*clears throat* I have read their take on ME3's ending and I have prepared this reasonable and well thought out response.


I'm just kidding, I'm not even a ME fan so I haven't played any of the games in the trilogy. I did skim it though and from what I've read about the ending I have to say I agree with them on some points and disagree on others. From an outside perspective I think it's kind of a crappy ending to a trilogy. (Like Vader throwing Luke down the bottomless pit instead of the emperor crappy) To be honest it sounds like the lead into a fourth game where they retroactively figure out how to stop the reapers without fucking the galaxy and they have to go back...

[HEADING=2]BACK TO THE FUTURE!!![/HEADING]​

(because you know ME takes place in the future so technically any backwards time travel is going back to the future and...I'm going to shut up now...)

 

[Cobelo]

snip

You know, i respect your opinion, man, but there's no need to act belligerent toward everyone who doesn't agree with you.

OT: I like the EC guys, but there's a lot of stuff i don't agree with here. If all the internet rumors flying around are true (Wouldn't be surprised at this point) then it wasn't really an artistic choice, it was mostly just pushed out the door. However, the last full paragraph describes my thoughts:

If the "failure" of Mass Effect 3's final minutes has done anything, it has proven exactly how successful the rest of the trilogy was. That the ending's failure to provide closure made so many people so angry showcases just how invested we all are in this universe and these characters we've befriended (more than even Bioware expected, I imagine). That the ending both supports and conflicts with some of the game's themes draws attention to how thoroughly those themes were woven into the previous games. And picking apart the ending's flaws has ultimately led me to marvel at just how successful Mass Effect has been as a whole.

 

[SageRuffin]

I don't think any of us (who weren't born with fetal alcohol syndrome) really believe that Bioware made that ending just to say, "Haha, take that, fuckwads!" If you have a grievance, by all means say so. But assuming that Bioware release a DLC to alter the ending, would it be so bad if they simply tied up the loose ends, provided closure and otherwise stuck to their guns?

You know what I just thought of? BioWare said in the beginning that ME was supposed to be a trilogy of games, but I think after the first game they weren't entirely sure what to make each game about. Ergo, when everything comes to pass in ME3, they created these nigh invincible warbots with no forethought as to how you actually kill one (Sovereign's defeat back ion the first game still makes no sense to me), hence the central theme of the entire trilogy radically shifting gears in the last 20 or minutes of the game.

Really, the only thing about ME3 that makes me angry is the heaping pile of feces BioWare and EA like to call "Galaxy at War". Having actually played - and subsequently written off - the multiplayer mode, directly tying it to the campaign was a very bad decision in my eyes.

 

[Seanfall]

i agree in that the ending should be changed in a way that doesn't change how bioware ended it. even if you don't want to call it an art form, it would be like if you wrote a story and someone came by, called it shit, then rewrote it. how would you feel?

and with the people talking about fallout 3, i found the ending to be a great ending. i was sad that i died, i hated it that it ended, but hey, i can go back and play the game differently this time. it was a well written ending, and was like a tragedy. i did like that i could keep playing after the new ending, but still, i feel that prevents it's ability to have any closure and have any effect on me. the ending was sad, i felt sad after it was done. but the game never shows themes for it being a happy game. you start out and your mom dies. later, your dad dies, not looking up too much for you. and you don't have to die, you can send in the paladin to do it instead of you, but it still ends. the game had an ending and brought it closure for what i did. it made me feel, that's why i liked it.

Fan's aren't re-writing it. Bioware would be the ones re-doing it. But yeah I agree with the ending of fallout 3, abrupt but... appropriate. I liked continuing the story and seeing first hand how my actions affected the wasteland. Plus a lot of people kinda meta-fictioned that the Wanderer from Vault 101 was their Courier in New Vegas. Cool idea actually.

 

[Seanfall]

EA likely doesn't give a shit about artistic integrity, and I highly doubt that Mass Effect 3 is the game that it is because EA respected Bioware's artistic vision. I'm still convinced that multiplayer was put in just so they could charge for an online pass.

You know what? You're probably right about that. But doesn't that make Bioware something of an underdog?

I don't think any of us (who weren't born with fetal alcohol syndrome) really believe that Bioware made that ending just to say, "Haha, take that, fuckwads!" If you have a grievance, by all means say so. But assuming that Bioware release a DLC to alter the ending, would it be so bad if they simply tied up the loose ends, provided closure and otherwise stuck to their guns?

Bioware an underdog? no...it makes them sellouts. And yes it would be bad as the ending still makes no sense. All three ending screens look alike. No real differences other then a few pose changes for the humans and a different color. It is not artistic it is lazy writing. The narrative falls apart at this point and shits on everything else up to it.

 

[MPerce]

Ah, it's Neon Genesis Evangelion all over again. An incredible series with an ending that made its insanely devoted fanbase shit itself in frustration.

Uh, I agree with Dan. I really wish the ending provided more closure, but I like what it tried to do. If it had gone the predictable route, I think I actually would've been pretty disappointed. Risk is exciting, even if you fall on your face. And look at the fascinating conversation it created in the gaming community.

And like Dan said, I hope they don't try to completely alter the ending. One, because of the whole "caving into the pressure and changing what you were trying to say blah blah art." I'm in a creative line of work, too, so I understand how crappy it is when someone says your art should be changed because they didn't like it. Providing closure and making the events actually make sense is cool, but keep the premise of it all the same.

Also, Neon Genesis tried to change its ending dramatically. It only made things even more batshit crazy. I don't want that to happen to Mass Effect.

 

[Thoric485]

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those with slow browsers

Fixed that video link. Thanks for sharing, it was a good watch.

 

[Knight Templar]

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those with slow browsers

Fixed that video link. Thanks for sharing, it was a good watch.

Thank you, I often forget to check over my edits. I will go correct that.

 

[Sakash]

You know what? You're probably right about that. But doesn't that make Bioware something of an underdog?

I don't think any of us (who weren't born with fetal alcohol syndrome) really believe that Bioware made that ending just to say, "Haha, take that, fuckwads!" If you have a grievance, by all means say so. But assuming that Bioware release a DLC to alter the ending, would it be so bad if they simply tied up the loose ends, provided closure and otherwise stuck to their guns?

That's all I want out of a DLC. I think it'd be cool if they added more content after the end, and personally I like the indoctrination theory and would like to see Bioware latch onto that.

But... if the content only cleared up some loose ends and add closure, I'd be more than OK with that.

That is all EVERYONE wanted. Its not the ending. Its the lack of one that pissed me off. All i want is closure. Thats it.

Also on the topic of art, yes i agree the developer should have a right to keep the ending if thats what they want. But you can feel that it was rushed and not thought out. It just feel like, if Da Vinci was to paint the Mona Lisa, but when it came to doing the face he just drew a smiley face with a sharpie.

 

[Eddie the head]

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those with slow browsers

Fixed that video link. Thanks for sharing, it was a good watch.

I was kind of on the fence about this whole thing I thought the ending was bad but I didn't think it should be changed, but after reading a few articles on both sides and watching that video and a few others I going to say now I am on the "yeah you should probably change it side." What I am saying is I was pretty neutral but now I am more siding with the "crybabies." I don't know they just seem to have a better argument then the other side. I am still not motivated to do anything about it though but for what it's worth yeah they have a better point, form my point of view.

 

[spectrenihlus]

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those with slow browsers

Fixed that video link. Thanks for sharing, it was a good watch.

I was kind of on the fence about this whole thing I thought the ending was bad but I didn't think it should be changed, but after reading a few articles on both sides and watching that video and a few others I going to say now I am on the "yeah you should probably change it side." What I am saying is I was pretty neutral but now I am more siding with the "crybabies." I don't know they just seem to have a better argument then the other side. I am still not motivated to do anything about it though but for what it's worth yeah they have a better point, form my point of view.

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