Extra Credits v Harrasment On Xbox Live

[tippy2k2]

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See, I have to disagree about the report system being more effective, because it would turn the mute button into a report button . Rather than having to go to the person's profile and a few menus to report them, which is both a hassle, and a waste on the resources needed to sort through the real reports from the fake ones, it would implement a system that wouldn't need anything other than someone clicking the mute button. It's something people do anyway, and since its based on averages, it would get rid of the need for people to go through them. Plus, it prevents bannings based on trash-talking, which I've always felt was a little too harsh, what with it preventing people from playing games online. Just taking away the thing they abused seems to make more sense to me.

Again, they painted the earned communications as a red button, only to be used if all other options have been exhausted, and it does pretty much what you described. If you lose an account to verbal harassment, you have to start over from scratch. I'm not really seeing a difference between that and what you just described.

EDIT: Also, I'm guessing that the lack of party chat on those few games are a design choice, like how dark souls prevents you from chatting while playing online.

If the person harassing isn't worth clicking on a menu to push Report, they probably are not doing something wrong enough to be worth reporting. By making the Mute button the report button, you're going to get much more collateral damage to people who have done nothing wrong (maybe it would balance itself out as has been suggested by others but I disagree). While any system with player interaction is exploitable, making it a Report button takes away the random chance of someone getting punished who shouldn't be.

As for the "earn communication" thing, I don't see any acceptable way to do it. Treating your customers like scum and forcing them to prove otherwise is just not acceptable to me. If you implement it on players who are being shit-heads THAT badly that you have to remove their communication, they shouldn't be on the service at all.

 

[funcooker11811]

If the person harassing isn't worth clicking on a menu to push Report, they probably are not doing something wrong enough to be worth reporting. By making the Mute button the report button, you're going to get much more collateral damage to people who have done nothing wrong. While any system with player interaction is exploitable, making it a Report button takes away the random chance of someone getting punished who shouldn't be.

As for the "earn communication" thing, I don't see any acceptable way to do it. Treating your customers like scum and forcing them to prove otherwise is just not acceptable to me. If you implement it on players who ARE being shit-heads THAT badly that you have to remove their communication, they shouldn't be on the service at all.

How is the current system any less exploitable? And if you're getting muted a significant percentage above the average, then you are very likely doing something wrong. It's not like they're saying "if you get reported 2 more times than other people you get auto-muted", its based on an average of all the games you've been playing, with many many instances taken into account. Again, if you're getting muted above the average by a significant percentage, then you're probably in the wrong.

I think we're looking at the earned communications thing from radically different angles. I don't think they were asking that players jump through any ridiculous amount of hoops to get access to communications, just stuff that the average player would get done just in average play in a reasonably short amount of time. It's purpose would be to discourage people from just jumping onto a different name every time that they're banned, and it wouldn't really affect those who don't abuse the system. Additionally, I (and they) acknowledge that this system has serious flaws and shouldn't be used unless its a last resort or something, but its not like it would be the end of all communications through Live.

 

[johnnnny guitar]

Ehhhhh the only thing I saw that could even remotely work is that auto mute everything else is just a heavy handed way to sort it out

 

[tippy2k2]

How is the current system any less exploitable? And if you're getting muted a significant percentage above the average, then you are very likely doing something wrong. It's not like they're saying "if you get reported 2 more times than other people you get auto-muted", its based on an average of all the games you've been playing, with many many instances taken into account. Again, if you're getting muted above the average by a significant percentage, then you're probably in the wrong.

I think we're looking at the earned communications thing from radically different angles. I don't think they were asking that players jump through any ridiculous amount of hoops to get access to communications, just stuff that the average player would get done just in average play in a reasonably short amount of time. It's purpose would be to discourage people from just jumping onto a different name every time that they're banned, and it wouldn't really affect those who don't abuse the system. Additionally, I (and they) acknowledge that this system has serious flaws and shouldn't be used unless its a last resort or something, but its not like it would be the end of all communications through Live.

The "Block Communication" thing in your description has one major flaw. If you make the wait period so short that it really won't affect the average gamer, it's not going to take long for the shit-head to get it too. If you make it really long, that might curb it a bit more but then you're crippling a new gamer (refer back to post 62). You're guilty until you can prove to us that you are innocent.

Along with that, how many people are buying multiple accounts so that they can mock a stranger? Live isn't exactly cheap...this communication thing is seeing an ant hill in their home and deciding that nuking the site is the only reasonable way to kill all the ants. Sure, you took out all the ants but was it really necessary to use such a weapon?

For everything in this discussion, we're just going to have to go with the agree to disagree. I think that all those ideas of Extra Credit are unnecessary complications to a system that already has ways to combat this and you believe that they are all good ideas and should be implemented (or at least I assume you think this, I suppose you could just be Devil's Advocating me

EDIT: If it helps, your "Clan" argument would have changed my mind if Lilani hadn't beaten you to it

 

[funcooker11811]

The "Block Communication" thing in your description has one major flaw. If you make the wait period so short that it really won't affect the average gamer, it's not going to take long for the shit-head to get it too. If you make it really long, that might curb it a bit more but then you're crippling a new gamer (refer back to post 62). You're guilty until you can prove to us that you are innocent.

Along with that, how many people are buying multiple accounts so that they can mock a stranger? Live isn't exactly cheap...this communication thing is seeing an ant hill in their home and deciding that nuking the site is the only reasonable way to kill all the ants. Sure, you took out all the ants but was it really necessary to use such a weapon?

For everything in this discussion, we're just going to have to go with the agree to disagree. I think that all those ideas of Extra Credit are unnecessary complications to a system that already has ways to combat this and you believe that they are all good ideas and should be implemented (or at least I assume you think this, I suppose you could just be Devil's Advocating me

Eh. Everything of this sort has a sweet-spot, not too long, not too short. But the sweet spot does exist.

And yeah, Live is a bad example but equally applicable to other online games with social features.

But yeah, it probably is an agree to disagree thing, although you never countered the auto-mute argument for it being a more streamlined approach, and you admitted the clan system is something you warmed up to. Really, the only thing we're arguing about now is how harsh the earned communications thing is. (I'm also slightly offended by the devil's advocate bit, as it implies that I don't really believe what i'm saying, just arguing to argue.)

 

[tippy2k2]

(I'm also slightly offended by the devil's advocate bit, as it implies that I don't really believe what i'm saying, just arguing to argue.)

Sorry, I didn't mean it in a bad way or anything. I've played Devil's Advocate on this forum every so often just because everyone agreeing is boring (though I always state when I'm playing DA).

 

[Meight08]

I still think there is a line between harassment and the need to grow a spine which alot of woman need to learn.

And I think that there's a line between telling people when something isn't a big deal and being an insensitive jerk. Funny world ain't it?

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

 

[Chiasm]

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

Friendly trash talking? Is that like friendly racism? Oh it was all just in good fun promise! I have never got the idea behind the "Oh, it's just for fun" line of thinking. Kind of like the fighting game community and the "You have to have sexism in games"

 

[Elate]

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

Friendly trash talking? Is that like friendly racism? Oh it was all just in good fun promise! I have never got the idea behind the "Oh, it's just for fun" line of thinking. Kind of like the fighting game community and the "You have to have sexism in games"

Yes.. Some people just have a stick so far up their backside that the slightest thing offends them, not because they honestly have been hurt by it, but because they CAN be offended by it. I call my friends names, they call me names, I get plenty of racism because I'm English and not American, I don't go getting all butt hurt when someone calls me a limey though. It's petty, and just serves to add fuel to the fire.

 

[Chiasm]

I call my friends names, they call me names,

Right key word here is friends, Is it really "Friendly" when some random person rants and raves and insults you over Xbox Live or even a random game? Also I am not sure why "butt hurt" was even brought up. Just because it is common doesn't mean it's "all good"

So why would better reporting and methods to control the few vocal jerks in a community be such a bad idea? For example I will not even try League of Legends or any other "DoTA" games because It has been told hammered into my brain that the community in them is awful. Imagine how many potential sales that drives away for the company.

In fact the big thing Steam talked about doing for DOTA 2 is implementing reporting and stricter moderation for the game IIRC. That says a lot if adding "moderation" is a bullet point feature for the game.

 

[Elate]

-snip-

Because you get the easily upset people, who will report others "trolling" for just killing them to many times, hell I've seen it happen. And DoTA 2 has an amazing report system, the community is still full of assholes, don't even get started on Valves stupid ass moderation idea.. "Good players get lower prices for stuff" because that isn't open to abuse at all.

Now, while I can't speak for Xbox Live (Only game on PC) I still don't understand the complaints, there's a mute button for a reason, why get all annoyed when you can just shut them up with a button?

 

[Meight08]

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

Friendly trash talking? Is that like friendly racism? Oh it was all just in good fun promise! I have never got the idea behind the "Oh, it's just for fun" line of thinking. Kind of like the fighting game community and the "You have to have sexism in games"

Friendly trash talking is the one you do when Someone hands you a slice of woopass and you say something in return it´s mostly light stuff, Saying ***** is really crossing the line.
Its mostly stuff like using stereotypes like saying to someone who is irish.
"Stop drinking and you might be able to shoot for shit!"

 

[Dogstile]

Well then, how would you deal with the problem? If people start acting immature online, I just block em and not all matches have total twats on them.

I would start handing out bans for offenders, using a "3-strikes" system. People need to get the message that this stuff is just not okay, and will not be tolerated. Those who act like a douche online will receive a strike. They continue their actions, another. When they get to 3, they are banned from X-Box live Gold forever, unable to send messages to anyone but the people on their friends list, and their account will be marked with a "Banned for misappropriate behavior" message. Might be a bit... harsh, but that is my idea.

Perma-ban is too harsh, especially with just 3 strikes. People do say stupid stuff, but 1-3 month-ban is far more reasonable depending on the offense: Problem people still stay away if they get repeatedly banned

Okay, you make a good point. I don't want to go soft on them, but I think something like this would work fairly well: 3-strikes to first ban, which lasts 3 months. After that, 2-strikes to a 6-month ban. Then, 2-strikes to a permaban.

EDIT: Then, do it like here: wait 6 months without infractions to remove a single strike. 2 years without harassment and your slate is wiped clean.

snip...

You could just integrate an appeals system then. If people feel they were unfairly modded, have them be able to appeal to the mods.

Overly idealistic. Mods aren't going to check out every complaint so they would do an auto ban system which would suck because people already know how to abuse the current one that's in place, you don't want to be making that easier.

An appeal system wouldn't work because Microsoft doesn't really look into them. A lot of the moderators on their end are lazy.

 

[Neaco]

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I've already responded about the clan thing and the message thing (report system, NOT auto-system and I think it works) but I suppose I haven't responded to anyone about the communication thing.

The reason why I think it's a horrible idea is the same reason people hate DRM: You're treating your players like criminals UNTIL they prove themselves otherwise. You're taking away what can be a very important part of the game because some shit-heads think that it's open mic night for their KKK meeting. If I'm a new player and need help? Tough shit because you haven't proven yourself worthy yet. Playing Left 4 Dead and need to warn your teammate about the Hunter about to claw out his spine? Tough shit, you are not yet worthy to speak.

The other two points I'm willing to bend on but I'm not willing to bend on this one. I think the system that is currently in place, IF ENFORCED, is plenty enough. It just seems like hitting that report button is throwing a request into a black hole, never to be seen again. If you MUST implement a new idea for the sake of implementing something new, I like my idea of having volunteer Mods police Xbox Live like every forum ever has implemented.

when the situation gets bad, and we build a reputation as a bunch of obscene howler monkeys, i believe internet martial law is necessary. though i like your mod idea, that would be a preferable alternative before making players "earn" communication rights.

weirdly, i've met some neo-nazi's online, and they're way more level-headed (even friendly) than a bunch of high schoolers on xbl...

 

[squid5580]

Calumon: Like making them eat cake until they explode!

Sorry Calumon, I really don't think that would be a good idea. It would be more like a reward than a punishment. XD

OT: Good for them, I guess. Honestly, whatever MS is doing to clean X-Box live is not working. This at least shows they are looking into alternative ways to solve the problem instead of just ignoring it, which I can get behind.

The reason why it isn't working is not MS's fault in the first place. If you recieve more than 1 harrassing message from a person that is your fault for not blocking them. If you listen to someone who you find offensive throughout a match once again your fault for not muting them. Trying to blame MS after these tools are in place is childish and lazy.

 

[Neaco]

The reason why it isn't working is not MS's fault in the first place. If you recieve more than 1 harrassing message from a person that is your fault for not blocking them. If you listen to someone who you find offensive throughout a match once again your fault for not muting them. Trying to blame MS after these tools are in place is childish and lazy.

a single ass-hat once per match is already too high, and at one point people just give up because they are constantly being harassed. its not their fault for not muting them, its the fault of those who screech hate online. as owners of xbox live, it is microsoft's consumer responsibility to maintain its community. so its not their fault, but it is the responsibility.

 

[SuperBelkar]

As a lady who likes to use mic but does not like getting shit for it, I can only say `Yay`.

I stopped paying for gold on Xbox live because of all the rubbish, there's no reason I can't be myself in a game. If that means using mic, dudes need to deal.

People who say its not a big deal or that the ones getting the harrassment should just deal with it are usually people who have never encountered it themselves.

I'd like to see more gamer girls. I only know a few, but some of them are good enough to hand me my fourth point of contact on a regular basis.


I think it's something along the lines of what George Carlin called "dick fear", and since women don't possess that anatomy (or the testosterone that goes with it) some guys resort to harassment like that in order to fell better about themselves, especially during bouts of competition.

All I can is - keep being yourself and don't let the mindless rabble get to ya!

Amen, good sir. for some of these jerks on these games, George Carlin's dick fear ideology is the only thing that makes sense for these creeps to act like that, and even with that they still sound like school yard deuce bags, because that's all they are.

As a lady who likes to use mic but does not like getting shit for it, I can only say `Yay`.

I stopped paying for gold on Xbox live because of all the rubbish, there's no reason I can't be myself in a game. If that means using mic, dudes need to deal.

People who say its not a big deal or that the ones getting the harrassment should just deal with it are usually people who have never encountered it themselves.

And as for this, just remember, they only talk like that because they have small penises, so if you find yourself getting crap, first feel bad for them, then laugh at their tiny rectums. Happy gaming!=]

 

[squid5580]

The reason why it isn't working is not MS's fault in the first place. If you recieve more than 1 harrassing message from a person that is your fault for not blocking them. If you listen to someone who you find offensive throughout a match once again your fault for not muting them. Trying to blame MS after these tools are in place is childish and lazy.

a single ass-hat once per match is already too high, and at one point people just give up because they are constantly being harassed. its not their fault for not muting them, its the fault of those who screech hate online. as owners of xbox live, it is microsoft's consumer responsibility to maintain its community. so its not their fault, but it is the responsibility.

First off your definition of ass hat (or offensive for that matter) probably varies. So if someone says something that offends you but entertains me who is right? Is it fair that the "ass hat" gets banned or muted indefinitely because of your sensitivities? Especially when you have the tools to not hear it without infringing on my desire to hear it.

Now if a person is constantly being harrassed by another well there is an app for that. If they are being constantly harrassed by the entire community then maybe they are the problem and don't belong. Oh I know I am blaming the victim but some people make themselves targets and ask for it. Now keep in mind bullying is far different than rape.

As far as I can see MS has taken as much responsibility as possible. They can't be asked to monitor the billions of communications made daily. Then filter through which is actual bullying and which is friends verbally jesting with each other. As owners they have the responsibility to ensure the community can thrive. And they have. They gave us the tools to police ourselves. In a community of millions that is all they can do. Not everyone is going to get along plain and simple. You will always find people you don't like and those who don't like you. And short of MS beaming mind control radiowaves through the headset so we all get along the tools provided should be adequate if used properly.

And it really saddens me that we as a community are being treated like a lot of crybabies because some people would rather look to a faceless corporation to fight their battles for them instead of using the tools that can end it before it really starts. Unless I am the last of a dying breed called ADULTS who can handle hearing 1 offensive thing or reading 1 offensive message and putting an end to what I hear or see of it.

The only thing I believe that should be implemented is some kind of filter for messages for those who are using the family setting. No parent wants little 5 yr old Timmy receiving a string of curse words in thier inbox. And in that respect little Timmy shouldn't be on the mic in the general in the first place (you know predators and all).

 

[Erttheking]

I still think there is a line between harassment and the need to grow a spine which alot of woman need to learn.

And I think that there's a line between telling people when something isn't a big deal and being an insensitive jerk. Funny world ain't it?

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

Dude, I'm a guy and "friendly trash talk" pisses me right the hell off whenever it's not done by a very VERY close IRL friend. People doing it online make me grind my teeth, I don't want to be called a ***** by some punk I don't know while I am playing Halo, and I don't care if he's just playing. What's more I doubt that most of the women complaining were on the recieving end of teasing. And besides news flash pal, not everyone is comfortable with being called names. Didn't know I had to spell it out for you that telling someone to grow a spine when they're uncomfortable with the way that they're being treated isn't the height of being thoughtful and sensitive. Learn to respect other people's limits for the love of Christ.

 

[Judgement101]

Thought saying "Extra Credits" on this forum was like eating babies.

Anywho, Xbox Live can't be enforced, just too many trolls and little kids who will tell their parents to complain to Microsoft and demand their account back which was banned from "exposing themselves to people on Uno"...........ummmmm maybe gettin' to personal here...