Extra Credits v Harrasment On Xbox Live

[DudeistBelieve]

oh for fucks sake.

THERE IS ALREADY A SOLUTION!!! IT'S CALLED A BLOCK BUTTON! NEARLY EVERY SOCIAL INTERACTION MEDIUM ON THE INTERNET HAS ONE!

Fucking aye. Just because people choose NOT to use it does not mean the system is broken, it means people are fucking retarded.

I don't want a system we're we have to police ourselves, because where would we draw the line bro and more importantly WHO would be drawing that line? Who watches the fucking watchmen and all that.

I think the whole punishing thing is a painfully shallow disguise for playing moral police. They want to stop harassment and punish the people who harass others rather than simply provide an option to allow you to ignore them. A weird community clean up rather than anything of utility.

Like Batman existing in a world where everyone had a gun.

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

mute everyone but their buddies... if they already do that to everyone then wouldn't that just factor into average?

limiting messages works well too though not the way you describe. sending as many un-answered messages to friends seems fine, but when it comes to strangers, i usually get responses.

making players earn it is the only way to deter new account creation for the intent of harassment. otherwise, block communication is worthless. and imho, new players should take the role of the quiet new guy, but thats just my opinion.

im sure auto-mute could be easily extended to an entire clan should their reputation become low enough, punishing people who are affiliated with bad rep is just another mechanism to combat harassment.

harassment isn't stopped if you feel harassed at any point playing games, and having to take that first blow before knowing who to block shouldn't be required of people.

I've already responded about the clan thing and the message thing (report system, NOT auto-system and I think it works) but I suppose I haven't responded to anyone about the communication thing.

The reason why I think it's a horrible idea is the same reason people hate DRM: You're treating your players like criminals UNTIL they prove themselves otherwise. You're taking away what can be a very important part of the game because some shit-heads think that it's open mic night for their KKK meeting. If I'm a new player and need help? Tough shit because you haven't proven yourself worthy yet. Playing Left 4 Dead and need to warn your teammate about the Hunter about to claw out his spine? Tough shit, you are not yet worthy to speak.

The other two points I'm willing to bend on but I'm not willing to bend on this one. I think the system that is currently in place, IF ENFORCED, is plenty enough. It just seems like hitting that report button is throwing a request into a black hole, never to be seen again. If you MUST implement a new idea for the sake of implementing something new, I like my idea of having volunteer Mods police Xbox Live like every forum ever has implemented.

 

[Erttheking]

I still think there is a line between harassment and the need to grow a spine which alot of woman need to learn.

And I think that there's a line between telling people when something isn't a big deal and being an insensitive jerk. Funny world ain't it?

 

[chimeracreator]

I'm glad to hear that the xbox team is talking to them. A lot of the ideas have a pretty solid sociological basis, and the auto-mute would work nicely as long as they get their math right. All in all it would be a major win for the community if they pull it off.

 

[funcooker11811]

Oh dear God I hope not...their ideas that they presented in that episode I thought were just plain bad. The only good one was the auto-mute thing and even that one has it's own problems (for example, there are players who just mute everyone but their buddies, which is going to skew that system).

The "Limit them to sending messages to their friends if their messages don't get responses" doesn't make any sense. Maybe if there was a report system to put that into affect might work better but how often do you respond to messages on Live (from friends or otherwise)? The "BLOCK COMMUNICATION" button exists for a reason...

Blocking communication and making players earn it? Seriously, can you make the system any more newbie unfriendly? You're putting your players in a black hole and treating them as scum until they prove otherwise with this.

Lastly, the clan one kind of works if you have ONE jerk in a big group. Maybe that happens more often but it seems like you'd just have jerk clans who don't give a crap about their reputation continuing to be a jerk clan.

People already have the tools to deal with harassment; use them. If people are using the Report system, Microsoft needs to enforce it.

Don't they already have something for people who mute everyone but their friends? I never use public chat just because I always have a party to join over Live so I can just talk to people I know, rather than the random people I don't know. Other than that, I don't really see anything wrong with the auto-mute thing.

Plus, they pretty much flat-out said "This is a drastic measure that can/will negatively impact a community, and should only ever be used as a last resort", in regards to the earned communications thing.

Also, the clan thing was meant more as a way to change the social attitude about harassment, rather than directly combating it. It would give clans an initiative to boot members who were giving them a bad name, and it would ostracize those that abuse the voice chat.

 

[chimeracreator]

Don't they already have something for people who mute everyone but their friends? I never use public chat just because I always have a party to join over Live so I can just talk to people I know, rather than the random people I don't know. Other than that, I don't really see anything wrong with the auto-mute thing.

Plus, they pretty much flat-out said "This is a drastic measure that can/will negatively impact a community, and should only ever be used as a last resort", in regards to the earned communications thing.

It should also be noted that one of the major goals of cleaning up voice communications in game is to help lead to a more functional online community. Where you don't need to block everyone you don't already know in real life to have a good time. This of course is in Microsoft's best interest as it allows gamers to invest in their social network within the game and thus keep them tied to the platform.

Now it would result in some of the more whiny elements eventually rage quitting once they lost their voice and couldn't troll everyone, but most of us don't like them anyways, so they can reform their ways or just complain about it on message boards.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Install a program that recognises certain unsavoury words, then electrocutes the person who said them.

Problem solved.

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

Don't they already have something for people who mute everyone but their friends? I never use public chat just because I always have a party to join over Live so I can just talk to people I know, rather than the random people I don't know. Other than that, I don't really see anything wrong with the auto-mute thing.

Plus, they pretty much flat-out said "This is a drastic measure that can/will negatively impact a community, and should only ever be used as a last resort", in regards to the earned communications thing.

Also, the clan thing was meant more as a way to change the social attitude about harassment, rather than directly combating it. It would give clans an initiative to boot members who were giving them a bad name, and it would ostracize those that abuse the voice chat.

They do have the "Mute everyone but your friends" function in Party Chat but not every game supports Party Chat. I believe MOST games do but I know that my primary multi-player game of choice (Hardcore Search and Destroy in Call of Duty) does not allow you to party chat. I feel that a Report system would be much more affective than just auto-muting people who get muted a lot.

The clan thing I've warmed up a bit to (Lilani thought I mis-understood it originally and I'm starting to think that he is correct when I see how others interpret it in this thread). While I personally don't think it's going to do anything, the Clan Reputation system that they want will not negatively affect the game.

As to the "Earned Communication" thing, I stated above (post 62), I will not bend on that one and have given my reasons for it. I think it's a horrible idea and should not be implemented in any way, shape or form. If it gets so bad in Live that you have to start off censored, just nuke the damn program and start over from scratch.

 

[Mr Pantomime]

Good for them, I guess.

I didn't mind the Episode or the solutions they thought up, well, for the most part atleast. I do however also ask myself why so many people are such, well...pussies for lack of a better term. I mean, why does it bother so many people so much? In one ear, out the other.

For the record, I would be most pleased if I didn't have to listen to any of you.

If your online community encourages people to act like assholes to each other, everyone who isn't an asshole will either mute, not play, or turn into an asshole. So you get a community of assholes. Im sure that Microsoft would rather have a nice online community rather than a community of assholes. Its just not good marketing.

 

[funcooker11811]

They do have the "Mute everyone but your friends" function in Party Chat but not every game supports Party Chat. I believe MOST games do but I know that my primary multi-player game of choice (Hardcore Search and Destroy in Call of Duty) does not allow you to party chat. I feel that a Report system would be much more affective than just auto-muting people who get muted a lot.

The clan thing I've warmed up a bit to (Lilani thought I mis-understood it originally and I'm starting to think that he is correct when I see how others interpret it in this thread). While I personally don't think it's going to do anything, the Clan Reputation system that they want will not negatively affect the game.

As to the "Earned Communication" thing, I stated above (post 62), I will not bend on that one and have given my reasons for it. I think it's a horrible idea and should not be implemented in any way, shape or form. If it gets so bad in Live that you have to start off censored, just nuke the damn program and start over from scratch.

See, I have to disagree about the report system being more effective, because it would turn the mute button into a report button . Rather than having to go to the person's profile and a few menus to report them, which is both a hassle, and a waste on the resources needed to sort through the real reports from the fake ones, it would implement a system that wouldn't need anything other than someone clicking the mute button. It's something people do anyway, and since its based on averages, it would get rid of the need for people to go through them. Plus, it prevents bannings based on trash-talking, which I've always felt was a little too harsh, what with it preventing people from playing games online. Just taking away the thing they abused seems to make more sense to me.

Again, they painted the earned communications as a red button, only to be used if all other options have been exhausted, and it does pretty much what you described. If you lose an account to verbal harassment, you have to start over from scratch. I'm not really seeing a difference between that and what you just described.

EDIT: Also, I'm guessing that the lack of party chat on those few games are a design choice, like how dark souls prevents you from chatting while playing online.

 

[Rednog]

Not a fan of EC's ideas for Xbox live.
The simplest solution is always the best, imo. Someone is talking smack, just mute them.
But no, let's put in contrived methods where you need X level or reviews to be able to talk. Let's put the judicial system in the hands of the players...that isn't a god awful idea that could be abused.
Those little shits that cause all the problems on Xbox live, I'm sure they don't have like 50 friends that would give each other positive reviews and I'm sure they aren't the ones to reach X level first. Hell, that kid and his friends won't go around and get his clan and friends to just review bomb the ever living hell out of you if you ever decide to speak out against them.

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

See, I have to disagree about the report system being more effective, because it would turn the mute button into a report button . Rather than having to go to the person's profile and a few menus to report them, which is both a hassle, and a waste on the resources needed to sort through the real reports from the fake ones, it would implement a system that wouldn't need anything other than someone clicking the mute button. It's something people do anyway, and since its based on averages, it would get rid of the need for people to go through them. Plus, it prevents bannings based on trash-talking, which I've always felt was a little too harsh, what with it preventing people from playing games online. Just taking away the thing they abused seems to make more sense to me.

Again, they painted the earned communications as a red button, only to be used if all other options have been exhausted, and it does pretty much what you described. If you lose an account to verbal harassment, you have to start over from scratch. I'm not really seeing a difference between that and what you just described.

EDIT: Also, I'm guessing that the lack of party chat on those few games are a design choice, like how dark souls prevents you from chatting while playing online.

If the person harassing isn't worth clicking on a menu to push Report, they probably are not doing something wrong enough to be worth reporting. By making the Mute button the report button, you're going to get much more collateral damage to people who have done nothing wrong (maybe it would balance itself out as has been suggested by others but I disagree). While any system with player interaction is exploitable, making it a Report button takes away the random chance of someone getting punished who shouldn't be.

As for the "earn communication" thing, I don't see any acceptable way to do it. Treating your customers like scum and forcing them to prove otherwise is just not acceptable to me. If you implement it on players who are being shit-heads THAT badly that you have to remove their communication, they shouldn't be on the service at all.

 

[funcooker11811]

If the person harassing isn't worth clicking on a menu to push Report, they probably are not doing something wrong enough to be worth reporting. By making the Mute button the report button, you're going to get much more collateral damage to people who have done nothing wrong. While any system with player interaction is exploitable, making it a Report button takes away the random chance of someone getting punished who shouldn't be.

As for the "earn communication" thing, I don't see any acceptable way to do it. Treating your customers like scum and forcing them to prove otherwise is just not acceptable to me. If you implement it on players who ARE being shit-heads THAT badly that you have to remove their communication, they shouldn't be on the service at all.

How is the current system any less exploitable? And if you're getting muted a significant percentage above the average, then you are very likely doing something wrong. It's not like they're saying "if you get reported 2 more times than other people you get auto-muted", its based on an average of all the games you've been playing, with many many instances taken into account. Again, if you're getting muted above the average by a significant percentage, then you're probably in the wrong.

I think we're looking at the earned communications thing from radically different angles. I don't think they were asking that players jump through any ridiculous amount of hoops to get access to communications, just stuff that the average player would get done just in average play in a reasonably short amount of time. It's purpose would be to discourage people from just jumping onto a different name every time that they're banned, and it wouldn't really affect those who don't abuse the system. Additionally, I (and they) acknowledge that this system has serious flaws and shouldn't be used unless its a last resort or something, but its not like it would be the end of all communications through Live.

 

[johnnnny guitar]

Ehhhhh the only thing I saw that could even remotely work is that auto mute everything else is just a heavy handed way to sort it out

 

[tippy2k2]

How is the current system any less exploitable? And if you're getting muted a significant percentage above the average, then you are very likely doing something wrong. It's not like they're saying "if you get reported 2 more times than other people you get auto-muted", its based on an average of all the games you've been playing, with many many instances taken into account. Again, if you're getting muted above the average by a significant percentage, then you're probably in the wrong.

I think we're looking at the earned communications thing from radically different angles. I don't think they were asking that players jump through any ridiculous amount of hoops to get access to communications, just stuff that the average player would get done just in average play in a reasonably short amount of time. It's purpose would be to discourage people from just jumping onto a different name every time that they're banned, and it wouldn't really affect those who don't abuse the system. Additionally, I (and they) acknowledge that this system has serious flaws and shouldn't be used unless its a last resort or something, but its not like it would be the end of all communications through Live.

The "Block Communication" thing in your description has one major flaw. If you make the wait period so short that it really won't affect the average gamer, it's not going to take long for the shit-head to get it too. If you make it really long, that might curb it a bit more but then you're crippling a new gamer (refer back to post 62). You're guilty until you can prove to us that you are innocent.

Along with that, how many people are buying multiple accounts so that they can mock a stranger? Live isn't exactly cheap...this communication thing is seeing an ant hill in their home and deciding that nuking the site is the only reasonable way to kill all the ants. Sure, you took out all the ants but was it really necessary to use such a weapon?

For everything in this discussion, we're just going to have to go with the agree to disagree. I think that all those ideas of Extra Credit are unnecessary complications to a system that already has ways to combat this and you believe that they are all good ideas and should be implemented (or at least I assume you think this, I suppose you could just be Devil's Advocating me

EDIT: If it helps, your "Clan" argument would have changed my mind if Lilani hadn't beaten you to it

 

[funcooker11811]

The "Block Communication" thing in your description has one major flaw. If you make the wait period so short that it really won't affect the average gamer, it's not going to take long for the shit-head to get it too. If you make it really long, that might curb it a bit more but then you're crippling a new gamer (refer back to post 62). You're guilty until you can prove to us that you are innocent.

Along with that, how many people are buying multiple accounts so that they can mock a stranger? Live isn't exactly cheap...this communication thing is seeing an ant hill in their home and deciding that nuking the site is the only reasonable way to kill all the ants. Sure, you took out all the ants but was it really necessary to use such a weapon?

For everything in this discussion, we're just going to have to go with the agree to disagree. I think that all those ideas of Extra Credit are unnecessary complications to a system that already has ways to combat this and you believe that they are all good ideas and should be implemented (or at least I assume you think this, I suppose you could just be Devil's Advocating me

Eh. Everything of this sort has a sweet-spot, not too long, not too short. But the sweet spot does exist.

And yeah, Live is a bad example but equally applicable to other online games with social features.

But yeah, it probably is an agree to disagree thing, although you never countered the auto-mute argument for it being a more streamlined approach, and you admitted the clan system is something you warmed up to. Really, the only thing we're arguing about now is how harsh the earned communications thing is. (I'm also slightly offended by the devil's advocate bit, as it implies that I don't really believe what i'm saying, just arguing to argue.)

 

[tippy2k2]

(I'm also slightly offended by the devil's advocate bit, as it implies that I don't really believe what i'm saying, just arguing to argue.)

Sorry, I didn't mean it in a bad way or anything. I've played Devil's Advocate on this forum every so often just because everyone agreeing is boring (though I always state when I'm playing DA).

 

[Meight08]

I still think there is a line between harassment and the need to grow a spine which alot of woman need to learn.

And I think that there's a line between telling people when something isn't a big deal and being an insensitive jerk. Funny world ain't it?

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

 

[Chiasm]

Dude i´ll be happy if these things are implemented but The next time a woman screams harrasment because because of some friendly trash talking im gonna kill something.

Friendly trash talking? Is that like friendly racism? Oh it was all just in good fun promise! I have never got the idea behind the "Oh, it's just for fun" line of thinking. Kind of like the fighting game community and the "You have to have sexism in games"