Extra Punctuation: Building Sequels Badly
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Yes he did. Now I won't be playing through the co-op campaign wondering if there's a sinister twist or not, he wrecked that for me.Agayek said:
I feel so strongly about this that I'm going to cancel my subscription to The Escapist next time it wraps around until I've recouped enough money that I would have spent on subscriptions to pay for Portal 2 (at current prices).
Metal Gear Solid 3 I think is better than 1 or 2, though that's probably just me. Saint's Row 2 I'd say is better than Saint's Row. Mass Effect 2 seems to generally be considered to be superior. I liked Assassin's Creed 2 much better than 1 as well, though that arguably didn't feature the same character.
Looks I think the majority of us agree that Bioshock 2 SUCKED, but clearly not all sequels are bad for instance look at Mario 3. Probably the best NES game of all time.
Perhaps it's my own bias... When I played Half Life 2, I had to remind myself that it was a sequel, cause it just didn't feel like one. To each his own I suppose.Dr Spaceman said:
I guess that means I agree with Yahtzee... sequels suck.. Notably Half Life 2.
"Name me one sequel to a game that wasn't left open for sequels, with the same main characters as before, whose story was regarded as better than the first. Let me help you out: there aren't any."
Thief 2, System Shock 2, Wing Commander 2 (and then WC3, in relation to WC2), Monkey Island 2 - and those are just the PC games I can name off the top of my head. (It should be noted, btw, that Origin/Looking Glass/Irrational knew how to sequelize.)
Thief 2, System Shock 2, Wing Commander 2 (and then WC3, in relation to WC2), Monkey Island 2 - and those are just the PC games I can name off the top of my head. (It should be noted, btw, that Origin/Looking Glass/Irrational knew how to sequelize.)
This is the first time i can remember disagreeing so strongly with you. Not about the gameplay, your spot on there: the gels were disappointing, and it as a whole didn't feel nearly as tight as before (personally i would have liked to see more done with the light bridges). The story on the other hand i found to be much better. I remember reflecting as the credits rolled on the last time I felt this invested in the characters and story of a video game. The only game that i have ever played that comes close was Sands of Time.
Is portal 1 better? Perhaps, the gameplay was a bit more compelling, but in my opinion the payoff in Portal 2 was much better. Different strokes i suppose...
Is portal 1 better? Perhaps, the gameplay was a bit more compelling, but in my opinion the payoff in Portal 2 was much better. Different strokes i suppose...
I can sort of see why Portal 2 was bad as a sequel for Portal as a whole. While the story in Portal 2 was entertaining and informative in its own way, it does end up killing the world in which Portal is set.
Everything becomes set in stone, every shadow illuminated. There is no more room for the possibility of mystery and adventure. The bizzare persona of Cave Johnson remains a dead phantom, the main character becomes a definite anomaly never to be seen again, and the once undefinable character of Glados is now just an out of control machine addicted to testing.
The game mechanic of Portal might show up elsewhere, but the world that engendered it is laid open like an old dusty history book, dead as the words it. Sure, they'll pull another sequel out for the sake of the money mill, but the story will be forced, awkward and out of place. A good example of this would be Dragon Age 2, and that half sequel Awakenings.
Everything becomes set in stone, every shadow illuminated. There is no more room for the possibility of mystery and adventure. The bizzare persona of Cave Johnson remains a dead phantom, the main character becomes a definite anomaly never to be seen again, and the once undefinable character of Glados is now just an out of control machine addicted to testing.
The game mechanic of Portal might show up elsewhere, but the world that engendered it is laid open like an old dusty history book, dead as the words it. Sure, they'll pull another sequel out for the sake of the money mill, but the story will be forced, awkward and out of place. A good example of this would be Dragon Age 2, and that half sequel Awakenings.
i don't care really
i'm not a hardcore fan of anything so i appreciate pretty much all sequels to games i enjoyed
and even more good sequels to games i didn't enjoy(DA2)
i appreciate the portal 2, the final fantasys after 10 and especially all (hopefully numerous) sequels of Assassin's Creed
fans are idiots
hating a sequel just because it didn't match the expectations(which it never does) is as stupid as booing out your favorite sports team because they played a bad game
i wouldn't even consider those people fans
i mean isn't the sole definition of a fan to stand to his fandom against all odds?
how can people be called fans if they start nitpicking everything they don't instantly appreciate?
i'm not a hardcore fan of anything so i appreciate pretty much all sequels to games i enjoyed
and even more good sequels to games i didn't enjoy(DA2)
i appreciate the portal 2, the final fantasys after 10 and especially all (hopefully numerous) sequels of Assassin's Creed
fans are idiots
hating a sequel just because it didn't match the expectations(which it never does) is as stupid as booing out your favorite sports team because they played a bad game
i wouldn't even consider those people fans
i mean isn't the sole definition of a fan to stand to his fandom against all odds?
how can people be called fans if they start nitpicking everything they don't instantly appreciate?
Finding myself agreeing less and less with Yahtzee these days where as I used to agree with him a lot. Not sure if it's my tastes changing or his changing.
Anyway, I love sequels. and a lot of them are better than the originals. Portal 2 was better than Portal 1.
Anyway, I love sequels. and a lot of them are better than the originals. Portal 2 was better than Portal 1.
Half-Life 2 counts (assuming you liked it better than the first, which I didn't).
Some people are saying Half-Life violated the first rule, but there's a difference between an ending which teases more of THIS story, and an ending that allows ANOTHER, subsequent story to follow it. Half-Life falls squarely into the second camp. Indeed, it would be hard for any story not to without killing all the main characters. Which would then violate the second rule, creating a very unfair contradiction that would eliminate most all contenders from answering Yahtzee's challenge. So I have to assume that by "opening for a sequel" he means a game that is deliberately inconclusive in anticipation of a sequel that will continue the present storyline.
Given that SHODAN is really the only main character in the series, I think it's fair to answer: System Shock 2.
Also: Riven.
Also: Yahtzee, I get the impression you don't like sequels that try too hard to be like the original, and then spend most of the article getting bent over all the ways Portal 2 isn't like the first one. Does not compute.
Also: SPAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!!!
Some people are saying Half-Life violated the first rule, but there's a difference between an ending which teases more of THIS story, and an ending that allows ANOTHER, subsequent story to follow it. Half-Life falls squarely into the second camp. Indeed, it would be hard for any story not to without killing all the main characters. Which would then violate the second rule, creating a very unfair contradiction that would eliminate most all contenders from answering Yahtzee's challenge. So I have to assume that by "opening for a sequel" he means a game that is deliberately inconclusive in anticipation of a sequel that will continue the present storyline.
Given that SHODAN is really the only main character in the series, I think it's fair to answer: System Shock 2.
Also: Riven.
Also: Yahtzee, I get the impression you don't like sequels that try too hard to be like the original, and then spend most of the article getting bent over all the ways Portal 2 isn't like the first one. Does not compute.
Also: SPAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!!!
Dynasty Warriors 2Yahtzee said:
Dynasty Warriors 3
Dynasty Warriors 4
Dynasty Warriors 5
Dynasty Warriors 6
Crash Bandicoot 2
Spyro 2
Destroy All Humans! 2
Just Cause 2
Wholeheartedly disagree.
I'd say her incompetence in Portal 1 was A) the result of Wheatley and B) The result of her being limited to procedure and guidelines set by Aperture, who, even in the first game, were complete idiots. In the final level, you can really see her pulling out all the stops to kill Chell, so I don't see what your beef is.
Monkey Island 2 was better than Secret of Monkey Island, and even had an ending that was supposed to prevent any further sequels. I think Baldur's Gate 2 and Diablo 2 were both better than their predecessors.
It makes me sad that Yahtzee's mostly right, though. I love Beyond Good & Evil. I think it's the best game ever. And I just want more of that awesome feeling, so I'm excited as hell about BG&E2, even though I've probably already decided I'm not going to like it as much as the original one. And I know what I really need is a new great game, but you know how your memories screw with you? It feels as though nothing's ever going to be better than that. But it certainly gave me a love for Ubisoft, and indeed I've much enjoyed Ass Creed 1 & 2 and Prince of Persia games since. Ass Creed 2! That's one that's better than the original!
It makes me sad that Yahtzee's mostly right, though. I love Beyond Good & Evil. I think it's the best game ever. And I just want more of that awesome feeling, so I'm excited as hell about BG&E2, even though I've probably already decided I'm not going to like it as much as the original one. And I know what I really need is a new great game, but you know how your memories screw with you? It feels as though nothing's ever going to be better than that. But it certainly gave me a love for Ubisoft, and indeed I've much enjoyed Ass Creed 1 & 2 and Prince of Persia games since. Ass Creed 2! That's one that's better than the original!
As with any creative work, you do what is appropriate in the context of the work itself and for the purpose of achieving the intent of the work. If creating a sequel is appropriate, then that is what should be done. However, if creating a sequel is not appropriate, then doing so anyway will only ruin the work. You have to know when to stop and let things be. Using too much is just as bad as not using enough; both ways ruin the final product
Of course, most sequels really only seem to have the purpose of bilking for more money.
Of course, most sequels really only seem to have the purpose of bilking for more money.
Well...I want to agree with Yahtzee. He usually has interesting points of view. So...I'll just agree partially.
As it has been said before, some sequels work. Mario 1, 2 and 3 are good, each one different from the previous and with both familiar and new elements. Even Mario World was good. I'll admit some other Mario games are not as good but at least those three worked back around the NES/SNES era.
Yes, some sequels are never meant to be, such as Tron Legacy, the sequel to a movie that no one knew of and no one asked for.
I also agree with the fact that fans don't know what they want. They usually ignore innovative and original games and go with the familiar and pretty. Portal is only popular because of internet memes that spread out (I know that's why I actually started playing it). Games like Call of Duty are pretty much the same. Hold on, fanboys! Let me finish. Although they have different plots (Somewhat), it's essentially the same. You grab a gun, you kill half of the world (Conveniently, the bad guys) and you have yourself a CoD game. I know what you're thinking: "Oh, but what did you expect from a FPS game?". Good question; I know CoD is a FPS and that the mechanic will remain the same. But I don't see the point in buying a new CoD next year when it will be more or less the same as the one I have right now. more maps, more features; it's still the same.
But at the same time, if you offer fans something new, they will rant about it forever. Case in point: The new Devil May Cry in development. I'll also admit I'm not crazy about the new Dante.
So no, fans don't know what they want. Developers should just do their thing and try to put little attention to what we say, kinda like when a parent is buying stuff at the market and the kid keeps bugging him about buying something. He keeps it in mind but not really.
As it has been said before, some sequels work. Mario 1, 2 and 3 are good, each one different from the previous and with both familiar and new elements. Even Mario World was good. I'll admit some other Mario games are not as good but at least those three worked back around the NES/SNES era.
Yes, some sequels are never meant to be, such as Tron Legacy, the sequel to a movie that no one knew of and no one asked for.
I also agree with the fact that fans don't know what they want. They usually ignore innovative and original games and go with the familiar and pretty. Portal is only popular because of internet memes that spread out (I know that's why I actually started playing it). Games like Call of Duty are pretty much the same. Hold on, fanboys! Let me finish. Although they have different plots (Somewhat), it's essentially the same. You grab a gun, you kill half of the world (Conveniently, the bad guys) and you have yourself a CoD game. I know what you're thinking: "Oh, but what did you expect from a FPS game?". Good question; I know CoD is a FPS and that the mechanic will remain the same. But I don't see the point in buying a new CoD next year when it will be more or less the same as the one I have right now. more maps, more features; it's still the same.
But at the same time, if you offer fans something new, they will rant about it forever. Case in point: The new Devil May Cry in development. I'll also admit I'm not crazy about the new Dante.
So no, fans don't know what they want. Developers should just do their thing and try to put little attention to what we say, kinda like when a parent is buying stuff at the market and the kid keeps bugging him about buying something. He keeps it in mind but not really.