Extra Punctuation: Roleplaying Homosexual in Dragon Age 2

[ConfusedCrib]

I think the bioware romances are starting to get really gimmicky, if their only there as part of the emotion and the story, then why are they in every game? And think about how mad people would be if in the next one there wasn't any romance.

 

[trooper6]

1) I'm always vaguely amused by the gay panic defense.

There are these big tough straight manly men who keep whining about how they shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable.
Then they is the "some guy I'm not attracted to hit on me and that is justification for beating them up and/or killing them"--I was in the Army with a lot of guys who said this.

Now why am I amused by all this rather than horrified? Because these guys are invariably the same guys you generally hit on women who are not attracted to them and who make those women feel uncomfortable. If the defense were really valid, then women should also be able to follow it. And if women followed this same philosophy, there'd be a lot of dead straight guys. A LOT.

2) To those who say that gays don't deserve equal treatment because they choose to be gay.

It isn't particularly logical to argue that homosexuality is a choice for a number of reasons: the existence of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom, and the fact that there are gay people in countries where you get put to death--who would choose to be gay in that situation? I've known gay people (in the Army), who really didn't want to be gay. They tried not to be, but that wasn't possible for them. Indicating that it isn't a choice. HOWEVER, let us assume for a moment that it is a choice. People choose their religion and we don't think it appropriate to deny people equality based on that choice.

 

[Kelbear]

I really liked Aveline, a warm big sister archetype.

 

[arikata]

.

You know, I'm just one female out of many, but if I was around to see you get in a fight with a gay guy just because he was hitting on you, I wouldn't find it manly at all. I think it would be kind of dumb. And I wouldn't even be inclined to believe your display of "Look ladies, I'm not gay". Call me crazy, but you simply telling the guy "I'm not gay, so don't hit on me" would be much more convincing to me than a fist fight. Or is it just unreasonable to give people the benefit of the doubt anymore?

Actually the difference isn't relating it to sexuality (the Nazis killed a lot of homosexuals, too, as I recall), it's more the sense of scale. Hundreds of people bashing one person? Doubtful that they all are doing it as a way to deny more positive feelings toward that person or what they represent. One person making a big deal out of denying X quality about themselves? That falls under the heading of, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." When you go out of your way to deny something - in this case by going so far as to start a fight over it when a simple "Not interested" accomplishes the same goal - it gives people reason to wonder why you're making such a big deal about it, as though it's hitting closer to home than it should.

It comes up frequently in discussing sexuality, particularly with regard to men and homosexuality, because of social constructs around the concept: expectations of what men are supposed to be and how they're supposed to act vs. what's actually going on, wanting to live up to those expectations, the differences between blahblahblahthisisnottheforumforasocialscienceslectureblahblahblah which is why, if you think about it, you're better off with the gel soles rather than hiking boots when corralling pythons anyway.


Edit: point of clarification, I'm not insinuating anything about your sexual preferences by pointing this out. I'm only observing that others who witness your actions might come to conclusions other than those you intend for them to derive from your behavior.

They've even done studies on it, like the one I provided to him above -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

"The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies."

When I said "hit" perhaps a better word would be "aggressive hit". There's a big difference. If a guy walked up to me and said something, like a compliment (the kind you would tell a woman). I'd tell him I'm not gay. If he asked me out I'd also tell him I'm not gay but the answer this time might come across as mean. If it involves anything sexual, I get in his face. If he won't take it back, I might walk away... Unless he was already annoying. You see? I treat gays a little different but that doesn't mean I go looking to "bash me some gays."

And besides, scientific studies mean jack-shit. I'm serious. I don't trust anything a scientist tells me until I know who funds him.

Women like confident men (and those who don't usually turn lesbian or hook up with some wimp). Unfortunately, where I live, women are not like the mystical women on escapist. They're actually real. They are the ones I'm hanging out with so their opinion actually matters. Women like power, so when a homosexual male tries flirting (in a rather sexual way) with me they watch. If I mumble something about not being gay, they walk away. If I tell him (in a loud voice) I'm not a frickin fag (pardon the vulgar phrasing), the women see me as more of a man. Maybe that only happens in college, I really don't know.

But calling me gay is a really lame attack strategy. Just thought I'd say that before more people use the same "he hates gays, must be gay" line.

Oh and by the way, if you really wanna be more "tolerant", tolerate my homophobia. Chow kids!

It's true that women like confident men, but everything I've read about you makes me think you're an insecure child soooooo....yeah good luck with that?

And yeah someone aggressively hitting on you can be annoying, but unless the dude grabs your dick or something you still will come off as the bad guy for starting a fight. And it is never okay to call someone a fag, end of story.

Fighting does not make you look strong, it makes you look like an idiot. Using derogatory terms does not make you look confident, it makes you look like an asshole. If you're so insecure about your sexuality that you feel the need to announce it every time someone makes a pass at you, it just makes the rest of the world think you're hiding something.

I'm not even going to go into the whole denying scientific research and believing someone can 'turn' into a lesbian. Saying stuff like that just shows how ignorant you are. I'm very worried about what college you're going to, because they're clearly not doing their job...

Also, how they hell am I a mystical woman? Am I an elf? Women like me exist, we're not that uncommon. Maybe it's time you found a new place to hang if all the girls around you are as shallow as you're making them out to be...

 

[caviar1]

Ben can't even get his math right.
Some of his logic is even worse.

Izzy/merril are the only female characters that are romancable. Both of which are not actually hetero anyways, but bisexual.

Anders/fenris, same srory, bisexual, but again 2 males.

Ben said there were 3 female, and 2 male. Welp, do the math.

It's also annoying the idea you think your characters should have any kind of normlacy about them is homophobic. Bisexuals make up at absolute most 10% of the population, yet 10 times that percent is representative in the game. 100%. Everyone is bisexual. If everyone walking around, from elves to dwarves had blonde hair and blue eyes, it would probably show up in your little skit reviws as some kind of reocurring nazi-theme. Of course, you pre-empt it by saying "i'm not racist or have anything against blonde haired/blue eyes people".

The simple facts are:
The vast majority of gamers are male.
the vast majority of male gamers are hetero.
The end.

No more.

so? do you feel unable to become immersed in the characters because you don't sexually relate to them? that seems pretty shallow. maybe bioware wanted you out of your comfort zone, think of that? sure, it's stirred up quite the controversy but none of the objections are founded in reason or logic, seems to me it's prejudiced blustering, that is to say, people are having an emotional reaction to the game. MAYBE bioware wanted people to be uncomfortable and just maybe they succeeded. this is only one game that is being brave and interesting and unique in a "male, hetero" series/industry and its not hurting anyone.
side note: i do not think that Yahtzee would say "i'm not racist blahghblahgblahg", not to put words in his mouth but i feel like he's a little cleverer than that.

It's like releasing a braile video game sequel and saying "hey, blind people like video games, too".

Nonense.

It's a simple fact bioware went way out of there way to make an overly "gay themed" game.

Don't dance around it and claim they did anything else.

You can debate whether or not that was good/bad idea or whatever, but don't deny reality. You even had straight as an arrow anders suddenly take a gay leap in DA2. How is that even sticking with the original "art" of the characters fidelity?

 

[Nannernade]

You paint quite the picture Yahtzee, I was really close to laughing out loud but then I'd have everyone in the class room giving me weird looks while I returned the favour.

 

[Raysett]

Its odd to think of yahtzee actually enjoying a game.

 

[robinkom]

I'm a straight man who is supportive of the gay community and this was a fantastic and humorous read, thank you Yahtzee. I honestly didn't know there were male romance options for the male Hawke... then again I always play female characters. I think I will start a new game now as the male Hawke and see how these go... I hope Anders isn't the only choice though, I romanced him with my female Hawke already.

 

[PirateRose]

Oh, this was so wonderful to read. Very, very good article that put a smile on my face. I suggest just like everyone else to just not select the romance options on characters you don't want to romance. It's that simple. Female players with straight characters have been doing that since KOTOR1 (and perhaps beyond that, but for me KOTOR1 was when I first ran into gay character hitting on the straight female character I role-played).

Why is it suddenly a big deal when it's the other gender getting hit on by the same gender? Damn you double standards!

I believe Isabela attempted to flirt with my female Hawke and I just didn't respond to it because it wasn't in my characters personality. When it comes to Mass Effect, there are lots of asari hitting on Shepard, and the female Shepard I first role-played with is straight. I've always felt uncomfortable about the asari doing that, however I don't let it get to me. It's the way the asari are designed. Actually you would think they'd all be chasing female humans like crazy considering how much alike they look, added with the fact they have that culture thing about not doing their own species. I mean, nature evolved them to look that why, why would they suddenly find males so easily attractive. Then I created a female Shepard who was gay and it suddenly wasn't so uncomfortable. It was just apart of her world.

I didn't even romance Anders with my Hawke, but I still love the character just the same.(Rivalmancing Fenris with my mage supporting, wise cracking, female Hawke was just too much to resist.) Anders just has such a wonderful complexity to his character and his story. It's all so very layered when it comes to him. Also, the uniqueness he brings is like a breath of fresh air.

 

[trooper6]

Ben can't even get his math right.
Some of his logic is even worse.

Izzy/merril are the only female characters that are romancable. Both of which are not actually hetero anyways, but bisexual.

Anders/fenris, same srory, bisexual, but again 2 males.

Ben said there were 3 female, and 2 male. Welp, do the math.

It's also annoying the idea you think your characters should have any kind of normlacy about them is homophobic. Bisexuals make up at absolute most 10% of the population, yet 10 times that percent is representative in the game. 100%. Everyone is bisexual. If everyone walking around, from elves to dwarves had blonde hair and blue eyes, it would probably show up in your little skit reviws as some kind of reocurring nazi-theme. Of course, you pre-empt it by saying "i'm not racist or have anything against blonde haired/blue eyes people".

The simple facts are:
The vast majority of gamers are male.
the vast majority of male gamers are hetero.
The end.
No more.

It's like releasing a braile video game sequel and saying "hey, blind people like video games, too".

Nonense.

It's a simple fact bioware went way out of there way to make an overly "gay themed" game.

Don't dance around it and claim they did anything else.

You can debate whether or not that was good/bad idea or whatever, but don't deny reality. You even had straight as an arrow anders suddenly take a gay leap in DA2. How is that even sticking with the original "art" of the characters fidelity?

Well, your statistics are quite off. According to the Kinsey report, the vast majority of people are bisexual to some degree. According to his studies, only 10% of the population is consistently homosexual...but only 10% of the population is consistently heterosexual. That other 80%? some flavor of bisexual.

As for the vast majority of gamers being male...also not true. A 2008 ESA study says 40% of gamers are women, and there was an article here on the escapist said that currently, if you figure in all gaming, women out number men.

Also since two of the characters don't actively hit on you, they don't necessarily have to become bisexual at all unless you pursue them. So my Fenris was a straight guy. And Merrill could be a straight woman in your playthrough as well.

Also gay people are normal too.

 

[jawakiller]

*I'm a literature major and I believe that women like "power" and that means beating guys up and I also, by the way, have actually had gays make aggressive passes at me - and I expect you to believe all this*

Son, all I can say is that I pity you. Your argument has degraded from:

You attack gays who make passes at you in order to make sure women know you're not gay...

...to now claiming that you grew up in a rough neighborhood, have a "literature major" and you have to violently defend yourself against gay sexual assault.

You really expect us to believe that gays make aggressive sexual passes at you? Seriously? I have never, ever once in my life - and I've hung out with some pretty diverse crowds - seen a gay man "aggressively come on" to another straight male once being told that said straight male isn't interested. Period. Never. Not even if you hang out in gay bars.

I call internet BS - it just didn't happen. Your story gets more and more off-the-wall bizarre and your blatant desire to "win the internet argument" is almost laughable.

Look, write what you want - they're just words on the screen and you've lost *all* credibility with me at this point; and, I'm sure, most of the other Escapist readers who have read your posts in this thread from beginning to end. You sound like an angry teenager.

As I said, son... I pity you. There's hope that you'll find some maturity in growing up and realize that sometimes when you say something stupid on the net it's best to just apologize and move on.

I guess you've you've never heard of berea college. Lots of gays, poor kids (most of us) and I guess I should have said I was in the process of earning my degree in English, my bad. You should look it up some time, great school for lower class students. And yes, I have gotten into a fight with two gays over the course of five semesters here. Both were drunk so I forgive them. I have told several homosexual males to "fuck off", not lately but it has happened. I did earn the respect of my peers when I got into a fight with the first drunk guy (he had at least 60lbs on me). I did learn how to fight getting my ass kicked in middle school.

I'm sorry if thats too much for you to believe but thats the truth. I apologize if my life offends you.

And I'm really tired of this topic but everybody seems determined to keep it going.

 

[arikata]

*I'm a literature major and I believe that women like "power" and that means beating guys up and I also, by the way, have actually had gays make aggressive passes at me - and I expect you to believe all this*

Son, all I can say is that I pity you. Your argument has degraded from:

You attack gays who make passes at you in order to make sure women know you're not gay...

...to now claiming that you grew up in a rough neighborhood, have a "literature major" and you have to violently defend yourself against gay sexual assault.

You really expect us to believe that gays make aggressive sexual passes at you? Seriously? I have never, ever once in my life - and I've hung out with some pretty diverse crowds - seen a gay man "aggressively come on" to another straight male once being told that said straight male isn't interested. Period. Never. Not even if you hang out in gay bars.

I call internet BS - it just didn't happen. Your story gets more and more off-the-wall bizarre and your blatant desire to "win the internet argument" is almost laughable.

Look, write what you want - they're just words on the screen and you've lost *all* credibility with me at this point; and, I'm sure, most of the other Escapist readers who have read your posts in this thread from beginning to end. You sound like an angry teenager.

As I said, son... I pity you. There's hope that you'll find some maturity in growing up and realize that sometimes when you say something stupid on the net it's best to just apologize and move on.

I guess you've you've never heard of berea college. Lots of gays, poor kids (most of us) and I guess I should have said I was in the process of earning my degree in English, my bad. You should look it up some time, great school for lower class students. And yes, I have gotten into a fight with two gays over the course of five semesters here. Both were drunk so I forgive them. I have told several homosexual males to "fuck off", not lately but it has happened. I did earn the respect of my peers when I got into a fight with the first drunk guy (he had at least 60lbs on me). I did learn how to fight getting my ass kicked in middle school.

I'm sorry if thats too much for you to believe but thats the truth. I apologize if my life offends you.

And I'm really tired of this topic but everybody seems determined to keep it going.

Being from the 'lower class' still doesn't give you the excuse to fight. I'm from the lower class, but I learned to get over the cave man attitude that physical violence will get you anywhere. You had to in middle school, fine whatever, it's time to grow up. If someone tries to start a fight with you in a bar, well that's what bouncers are for. Really. You're an English Lit Major so I highly doubt any of your future work buddies are going to be impressed with your fighting ability. You're going into an intellectual field, it's time you start putting yourself in positive environments that match that.

 

[Warachia]

So I looked at page 1, pretty good, people were insightful of the topic at hand, then jump to the last page, and there they were, people either gay bashing the supposed gayness in the game (even though almost all characters were bi), or just gay bashing, and those who argue against them. I always thought the escapist was above this, but no, and the same thing happens if you mention furries oddly enough.

 

[Laughing Phoenix]

And I'm really tired of this topic but everybody seems determined to keep it going.

Then walk away. No one is going to care who won this little flame war, and you're right, the back and forth has gotten stale and its no longer about the larger issue.

Anyway, I do find this topic an interesting collision of incompatible viewpoints, and it does raise some deeper points about minority rights and visibility.

Is a minority being "in your face" about something if they say, "Hey, could you stop ignoring us?" Is finding new ways to say, "We exist" the same thing as waging a propaganda war on the majority?

I point to an external link on this one:
http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson870.html

I will say this though: I am simultaneously proud to be and frustrated by being an American. I respect the core tenets of Democracy and I am proud to see everything it has done for my country. I, however, do NOT trust the majority with the rights of a minority. Why in the world would I trust the fate of the have-nots in the hands of those comfortably in the mainstream and in power? Why would they ever extend any resource to those marginalized, especially when the minority appears so alien and foreign to them? If the majority had its way, Jackie Robinson would've never been given the chance to be the first black baseball player, women would've never had the right to vote and I would still have to be very scared about admitting I'm gay in polite conversation (though the ugly straight guys will always quickly add, "Hey, I know you want me, but I'm straight, brah." Always. The. Fugly. Ones.)


This is one instance where the game format really does distill and crystallize the issue. Dragon Age is open ended, and you are not forced into any of the romantic options. But the game has gay parts that you can politely decline, with no major fall out to speak of. But that seems already too much for some people.

So that is, finally, my point, and the question I want to ask everyone here. Does being gay and open about it = forcing gay propaganda? Is putting straight male players in close proximity with (fictional) homosexuality but allowing them to turn away from it unfair to the straight player?

 

[Caileena]

I absolutely love this article (and Extra Punctuation in general). Very funny, slightly adorable (who knew you were such a softy), and you make great points. That and you have provided my vocabulary with a darling new phrase to throw around, bum-chums.

 

[Valdus]

My only annoyances with the romances in DA is that well..they didn't include gay characters.

They include bi characters yeah, but no gay characters. DA Origins had characters that were straight or bi, all DA2 did was remove the characters that were only straight.

I'll be more than happy to praise bioware when they put in a legit gay character (as in one that actively seeks a member of the same gender, not someone who just doesn't care).

 

[Clonekiller]

Insightful, though I might suggest just sticking to games rather than cultural commentary. Some things are a bit complicated and require a bit more research. For example: sex has a psychological element. (Don't believe me? Look it up. Take a psychology class or two some time) This psychological impact invokes powerful emotions, especially among women, and psychological damage can occur for those that do not have feelings already established. (It's what makes rape so devastating) On a different note, fantasies can be more than just "for fun" simply due to a person's psyche & how they attach themselves to their fantasy. People's complaints have a bit less to do with "insecure sexuality" and more to do with their ability to differentiate themselves from their character. For crying out loud, people have difficulty with this in characters in a book series. (check out the Twilight phenomenon). Food for thought, not everything can be explained with "it's just stupid culture rules". Anyway, peace off.

 

[Epic Fail 1977]

Yahtzee: 'Are there men so insecure that they're offended by fictional gay men coming onto their fictional avatars?'

The seemingly popular belief that homophobia implies sexual insecurity is curious to me. The "logic" seems to be that anyone who is homophobic must secretly want to be gay on some level. But I find cockroaches to be disgusting - so does that mean I have a repressed desire to be a cockroach? My uncle has an irrational fear of spiders - and presumably a subconscious desire to walk around on eight legs? This "logic" seems a little weak to me. I suspect it's more of an exercise in social engineering than anything else, but it's a rather two-faced one. On the one hand we are being encouraged to accept people of all sexual persuasions, which is a good thing. On the other hand, some of us are being criticized for our private tastes and feelings on the matter and encouraged to change them. This is not in keeping with the "live and let live" mentality that I would hope to find in any pro-gay mindset.

I think it's great that people are encouraged to be accepting of gay people. But when we are criticized for not being gay enough, that's a problem. Yahtzee, you say you enjoyed watching your gay relationship play out in DA2 because you could relate to things on an emotional and intellectual (but not physical) level. Fine, good for you. But many people, especially young men, are only interested in the physical level. Furthermore, unrequited love (or even just sexual desire) is often the death of any friendship, regardless of the genders of the two friends. If someone wants to have sex with women and just be friends with men, that should be fine. If they want to play games where they have sex with women and just be friends with men, that should be fine too. Let's have a "live and let live" mentality that goes both ways, so to speak.

 

[Jamous]

Very nice read; Yahtzee, you'll probably never see this, but I think your articles are brilliantly insightful and clever and I value them a lot. Thanks very much!