Extra Punctuation: What is Mature Anyway?

[jjofearth]

Hullo there. Genuine thirteen-year-old. From what I've seen and demo'ed of DN:F (I don't want to buy it - inb4 pocket money jokes), it appears to be a piece of juvenile, asinine, objectifying, quasi-misogynistic (I added the prefix because of the hordes of people who seem to think that preventing hatred [and it is hatred {really, I can't think of a single reason within the context of the game to have naked ladies other than because <Haha, nested brackets, you've forgotten what I was talking about>...well, naked ladies }in every sense of the word] is an affront to free speech) Frankenstein-ic, zombified, petrified, archaeologically fascinating, and fundamentally, necessarily *immature* game.

Or, you know. It's kinda lame.

I was considering buying it until that part with the alien hive and the breasts on the wall that you could slap. That really turned me off the game. Not because it has breasts...but because they're not actually breasts, they're alien tit things. And you slap them. For no real purpose.
That whole business with the spanking the girls in the capture the babe mode? That's in context. Didn't care about that. But why wall-tits?

I'll tell you why wall-tits. Because BOOBIES.
Why does the game open with your character getting a blowjob? Because BOOBIES.
Why do you look up people's skirts when you're shrunken? Ok, admittedly this was an interesting idea, but it's fairly obvious to me that the fundamental reason was simply so that you could look up skirts. The game appears to be filled with unnecessary boobs - or, very necessary boobs given this game's target demographic. It's just a bit embarassing to watch it really. It's a little like this idiotic child in my PE class who thinks that swearing and talking about genitalia, CONSTANTLY, makes him infinitely cool. Bear strongly in mind, no-one likes this child. And DN:F is that child. It's like it has visual, boob-related tourettes syndrome. Anytime it tries to be a game with any semblance of cohesive plot and theme other than mammaries, it accidentally shouts out "BOOOOOBS" and all of a sudden tits of the stonking great variety appear everywhere.

 

[theskadudeguy]

I agree that the system is flawed. I live in Britain and we have the BBFC (or PEGI) deciding the rating on the games. And they litterally are just tick sheets to fill in while watching a film/game and if the media fits a certain criteria then it becomes a 12,15 or 18 etc.

Some games use these ratings as a selling point (see Manhunt) and some films cut things out to get a lower one (see star wars episode 3 re: Anikin headbutting Mace). This is just plain stupid.

Further more, what really gets me annoyed is parents. They are the ones that seem to condem games yet they ignore the ratings! When I worked in a game shop parenst would constantly buy kids GTA IV just because their friends had it, I would ask some times "would you let you're kids watch a film with prositiutes in it?" their answer would always be "no...are there prostitiutes in this game?". The ratings do serve a purpose to a certain type of people and if those people choose to ignore those warnings, well thats up to them.

In the mean time, it doesnt effect me. I'm 22

 

[Thyunda]

Hullo there. Genuine thirteen-year-old. From what I've seen and demo'ed of DN:F (I don't want to buy it - inb4 pocket money jokes), it appears to be a piece of juvenile, asinine, objectifying, quasi-misogynistic (I added the prefix because of the hordes of people who seem to think that preventing hatred [and it is hatred {really, I can't think of a single reason within the context of the game to have naked ladies other than because <Haha, nested brackets, you've forgotten what I was talking about>...well, naked ladies }in every sense of the word] is an affront to free speech) Frankenstein-ic, zombified, petrified, archaeologically fascinating, and fundamentally, necessarily *immature* game.

Or, you know. It's kinda lame.

I was considering buying it until that part with the alien hive and the breasts on the wall that you could slap. That really turned me off the game. Not because it has breasts...but because they're not actually breasts, they're alien tit things. And you slap them. For no real purpose.
That whole business with the spanking the girls in the capture the babe mode? That's in context. Didn't care about that. But why wall-tits?

I'll tell you why wall-tits. Because BOOBIES.
Why does the game open with your character getting a blowjob? Because BOOBIES.
Why do you look up people's skirts when you're shrunken? Ok, admittedly this was an interesting idea, but it's fairly obvious to me that the fundamental reason was simply so that you could look up skirts. The game appears to be filled with unnecessary boobs - or, very necessary boobs given this game's target demographic. It's just a bit embarassing to watch it really. It's a little like this idiotic child in my PE class who thinks that swearing and talking about genitalia, CONSTANTLY, makes him infinitely cool. Bear strongly in mind, no-one likes this child. And DN:F is that child. It's like it has visual, boob-related tourettes syndrome. Anytime it tries to be a game with any semblance of cohesive plot and theme other than mammaries, it accidentally shouts out "BOOOOOBS" and all of a sudden tits of the stonking great variety appear everywhere.

Well...why does the game open with my character getting a blowjob? Because he's obviously so manly, girls just cannot resist. Why do I look up character's skirts when I'm shrunken? Because I bloody well want to. Otherwise I wouldn't.
I don't mind tits if they're attached to some form of woman's chest...or if they're there to shout "I'm Duke Nukem and I love big ol' titties!" But slappable alien wall-tits? That one is a bit too far.

 

[onewheeled]

Yahtzee's points reminded me of something I heard on the one episode of GameTrailers TV I've ever watched. They were doing a preview of the new Twisted Metal game that's coming out, and they were highlighting one of the arenas, where you could eject spectators from the stands and run over them.

"You can run over the spectators? And this has a T-rating?"

"Well, there's no blood, so we're safe!"

That really just got me thinking. It doesn't matter how disturbing or gruesome an act of violence is in a video game, it's just how explicit it is, that earns it a higher or lower rating. The Dark Knight analogy, with the pencil scene, is another perfect example of this. No blood, so it's not explicit, so it's fine for the whole family!

 

[Strazdas]

The more i read of this the more i agree. rating system doesn't work, and it never did. it was created because people are too stupid or lazy to parent their own kids and expect someone else to do it for them. For kids rating system does two things. One is causing them to whine and another is causing them to pirate. Just because a game is 18+ does not make them stop wanting to play it. And if shops or parents refuse to allow them to buy it, they just download it. So in a sense ratings are actually bad for business.
It is amazing how rating system is still used by anyone. then again first law of stupidity says that there is always more stupid people than you think.

 

[Sarah Frazier]

What I think can be done is advertising WHY a game is meant for kids, teens, or adults by making use of the box the game comes in. Imagine that... Rather than floating heads on a backdrop that only kind of/sort of comes from the game, why not have pictures from the cutscenes? Or perhaps even artwork of things the protagonist/s do throughout the game; be it fighting, racing, seducing, or running around with a chicken sitting on their head.

It's not like it's too hard to take one frame of a cutscene, cut off the edges, and shrink it down. Not to mention you're making better use of the covers than showing off the nostrils or forehead of mostly ignored characters for the reason that "They look good". Maybe I'm just sick of seeing character profiles when shopping and being forced to sift through half a dozen reviews to get any idea of what the game is about, much less whether it's really any good.

 

[chuckman1]

These people on here have some interesting opinions on the subject.
Personally i agree with yahtzee.

 

[Clonekiller]

And thus we see the moral decay of the past hundred years. Violence is funny, especially when it's unrealistic. Sex is funny, as long as you show nothing "inappropriate". It's like many games trivialize things that should be important. (Hmmmmm... Maybe that's why people have a hard time accepting video games as a valid art form?) It's not like it's hard. Take a look at Homefront. Regardless of the flaws in the gameplay, the non-combat violence you observe in the cutscenes invokes quite a bit of gravity and emotion. In the same way, Mass Effect approaches sexuality from a relationship standpoint, rather than "Oooo tities", making for a more convincing and believable relationship. (As far as sex scenes go, ME2 proved you don't actually need to show "tities" or anything else to make a great "mature" sexual event.) I just wish most games would get over their own immature self image and treat themselves seriously. (Honestly, I'd like to see a game take the path of Thor and offer a meaningful romance without resorting to a pointless screw scene. Yeah, some people will feel gipped, but do you really want to cater to those that would feel gipped by not ogling two people "loving it up"?) Anyway, that's a whole long paragraph of my opinion that no-one asked for. Still feels good to get it out though.

P.S. ESRB, and the movie rating system for that matter, should come up with a new rating category. The +18 C, which is a place to put all those games and movies full of immature comedy that is too inappropriate for minors. I nickname it the Construction Worker category.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

Preach it brother.

You want something that scares you far more than anything an 18 certificate puts out?

Spoiler: Violence

Oh man, that movie - animated films about rabbits of all things really have no business being so genuinely horrifying to, you know, children, the audience most likely to see cartoon bunnies and become intrigued (and then traumatized). In my case it was a classic application of "Oh hey, a cartoon about rabbits - that will be totally appropriate to make our children sit down and watch, yes sirree!" years later when it was out on video (since the film itself was released a few years before I was actually born), whereupon it promptly entered my "Why the hell did you let me watch that when I was a kid?!" mental filing cabinet.

But it does strike me that sharing that anecdote or bringing the film up with this audience is a sure-fire confirmation that you're a card carrying member of the "old person club" - would kids these days even recognize the subject matter of that caption?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

But it does strike me that sharing that anecdote or bringing the film up with this audience is a sure-fire confirmation that you're a card carrying member of the "old person club" - would kids these days even recognize the subject matter of that caption?

whereupon it promptly entered my "Why the hell did you let me watch that when I was a kid?!" mental filing cabinet.

You've answered your own question. *moustache twirl*

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Maybe the characters from "mortal kombat" are eunuchs. It's cruel of you to mock them.

I'm not an expert on that or anything, but I think a eunuch only has the testicles removed. So there would still be "something" there, if you get what I mean.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

I wish we lived in a rational enough world where ratings weren't necessary. Where we could all be reasonable enough to just put down something we don't like or agree with and not kick a stink about it. Or trust that people will parent their own kids without demanding the government or all of society do it for them.

Unfortunately I don't live in a time and place that really allows for that kind of expectation. Instead the North American expectation is that we all must child-proof our world and lie to kids about stuff they probably already know.

I reject your reality, and put in its place my own.
Now, please excuse me. I must go view the 20th episode of Top 5, and then watch the 60th episode of Doomsday Arcade where Yahtzee becomes the 3rd main character.

(Disclaimer: Its a JOKE!!! The shows be dead. )
(( Disclaimer Disclaimer: That last bit of bad grammar was on purpose.))

 

[Imp_Emissary]

For once, I agreed with everything Yahtzee has said. One more vote for the "Fuck it" rating system.
Also, I noticed on these forums that a few of the people that have condemned DNF solely for being immature also have My Little Pony avatars.

To be fair, MLP is a good bit more "mature" than DNF. Hell I'd go as far as saying MLP is even more realistic than DNF, and its got freaking talking ponies for lords sake!

 

[gring]

Good article. Another thought I had to add to this is if cartoons from the past, like Bugs Bunny, even up to Ren and Stimpy were released TODAY, they'd get a TV-MA rating. Even in the old WB cartoons, there was so much violence and there were even a few scenes that could be traumatic to some kids. Funny/sad thing too is, I'm pretty sure that Ren and Stimpy were what contributed to the whole tv rating BS.

 

[Marik Bentusi]

Oh Yahtzee. Sometimes you're so right and sometimes you're so silly. Good mix tho.

First of all, the idea behind the "Mature" tag isn't that the game is mature, but that only grown-ups should play it. Obviously the train of thought behind this decision is that grown-ups have an already established set of values (or at least it's expected of them), so there is no risk of a kid getting the wrong idea about sex or violence and doesn't get the joke, parody or fantasy different from reality.
How big this risk actually is is another thing altogether, but I've witnessed people thick enough to believe it is real. Anyway, I didn't see that pop up in your article at all.

Second, about censorship of genitals. I think it's a Western thing as stuff from Japan is notoriously more liberal with sexuality, both in character design and actual storytelling that doesn't shy from discussing such matters. I don't actually remember playing a Japanese game (or the devs hid that fact well), but word gets around, so I know a bit about Persona, that one weird E3 puzzle game (Catherine? Something like that) and... well, look at the FF cast.
On the other hand, violence seems to be more of an issue, DON'T YOU DARE MENTION THE NUKE; IT'S NOT A NUKE, IT'S AN N² MINE, DANGIT! So the cultural values seem to be inverted here for one reason or another (mostly historically influenced I suppose).

Lastly, and to strengthen my first point made, there are plenty of games out there that aren't rated M, but I'd still call mature in nature or tone, such as Homeworld, or games that at least aren't completely immature or "just aimed at kids". I always seem to have to mention that just because it's for kids, it doesn't have to be dumbed down crap from Cartoon Network or Looney Toones. Flameshield up, but personally, I never found those two appealing at all for reasons implied.

So the real questions should be:
What makes a game mature?
What makes a game deserve the Mature rating?


P.S.
I think especially Western producers should really get together to produce a game with believable romance in the center, and include sex, why not.
Mass Effect did a little step in that direction, but it was very focused on sex in my opinion (a few kind words and a healthy amount of interest in cultures not fully explained in the manual/codex - and most importantly no actual chemistry - and suddenly someone asks you if you have condoms with you. WTF) and the actual sex was pretty much non-existent.
Tho I should be grateful for that considering the hideous MoCap and Sherperds outright creepy uncanny BioWare face. Any interaction it other objects, be it drinking, hugging, kissing, just looks plain wrong with MoCap, even worse than normal MoCap - IMO

 

[Alphalpha]

I think the industry would benefit greatly from an increased demand for cock-jiggle programmers. Lord knows the boob-jiggle and butt-jiggle professions are over-saturated with talent, and it'd be a shame to lose those bright young minds to unemployment.

More seriously, the dichotomy between Western culture's views of sex and those of violence has always been very disturbing to me.

 

[Dfskelleton]

For once, I agreed with everything Yahtzee has said. One more vote for the "Fuck it" rating system.
Also, I noticed on these forums that a few of the people that have condemned DNF solely for being immature also have My Little Pony avatars.

To be fair, MLP is a good bit more "mature" than DNF. Hell I'd go as far as saying MLP is even more realistic than DNF, and its got freaking talking ponies for lords sake!

I'm sorry, but at what point was Duke Nukem supposed to be realistic? That's absolute nonsense. Also, My Little Pony is mature? I suppose it is compared to Duke Nukem, a game that is specifically designed to be as immature as possible, but I've forced myself to watch an episode, and the most mature thing I detected was me groaning in agony.

 

[Kahunaburger]

More seriously, the dichotomy between Western culture's views of sex and those of violence has always been very disturbing to me.

You could make a very good case that they boil down to this:

 

[Imp_Emissary]

For once, I agreed with everything Yahtzee has said. One more vote for the "Fuck it" rating system.

I'm sorry, but at what point was Duke Nukem supposed to be realistic? That's absolute nonsense. Also, My Little Pony is mature? I suppose it is compared to Duke Nukem, a game that is specifically designed to be as immature as possible, but I've forced myself to watch an episode, and the most mature thing I detected was me groaning in agony.

Ha ha ha. Well you can't please everyone. (By more mature, I meant not trying to only use poop, piss, and awkward pop-culture references as a means to entertain. Oh, boobs too.)

Also, as for your question about who thought DNF would be realistic, I can tell you it was not me, but I was hopeful that it wouldn't be as bad as it turned out to be.

Oh, and I too well vote for the Fuck it system.

 

[Epona]

Mature is when the cursing is kept to a minimum, when the gore is not exaggerated and sex is not the be all, end all of life.