...An army of Batmen after me?
...Oops...
Well, it's too bad I don't get to adopt them after their parents got killed by a dragon.
Extra Punctuation: What Is the Matter with You People?
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
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...Oops...
Well, it's too bad I don't get to adopt them after their parents got killed by a dragon.
"Jim Middleton said:
Yahtzee, buddy, weren't you the one who said in your review of Fable 2, "I grew bored of happy marriage and decided it was time to murder my entire family. This was the point when I discovered that you can't kill children. So much for total freedom, eh?"
Now I agree with the thrust of this article, and think it is pretty weird that these mods get added, but claiming the moral high ground here with such indignation ring a bit hollow here. After all, "freedom" is hardly a better reason to be able to kill children in games than "realism." "
THIS, pretty much.
Really, Yahtzee, if the game allows you to kill random NPC's they must allow you to do that to ALL of them. Or maybe we should start excluding the option of killing old NPC's? They're frail and all, oh deary me!
NOTHING is as immersion breaking (you love immersion, remember?) as undying children, unless there's a reason for it. And morals from the real world do not count as an ingame reason.
If you could rape people (which I think is ALWAYS the case when children are involved) in a game that'd be really bad, because of what it implies. Murder is nothing to an NPC, it just stops being animated (and annoying). Forcing sex is something way different.
And what is the sex is consentual between adults? You'd be freaking out about gay rights if you could only knob the opposite sex.
So; murder everything; check. Sex with anything; nope.
Stop comparing apples with pears just because you couldn't think of a different topic for your weekly contractual obligation, chap.
Yahtzee, buddy, weren't you the one who said in your review of Fable 2, "I grew bored of happy marriage and decided it was time to murder my entire family. This was the point when I discovered that you can't kill children. So much for total freedom, eh?"
Now I agree with the thrust of this article, and think it is pretty weird that these mods get added, but claiming the moral high ground here with such indignation ring a bit hollow here. After all, "freedom" is hardly a better reason to be able to kill children in games than "realism." "
THIS, pretty much.
Really, Yahtzee, if the game allows you to kill random NPC's they must allow you to do that to ALL of them. Or maybe we should start excluding the option of killing old NPC's? They're frail and all, oh deary me!
NOTHING is as immersion breaking (you love immersion, remember?) as undying children, unless there's a reason for it. And morals from the real world do not count as an ingame reason.
If you could rape people (which I think is ALWAYS the case when children are involved) in a game that'd be really bad, because of what it implies. Murder is nothing to an NPC, it just stops being animated (and annoying). Forcing sex is something way different.
And what is the sex is consentual between adults? You'd be freaking out about gay rights if you could only knob the opposite sex.
So; murder everything; check. Sex with anything; nope.
Stop comparing apples with pears just because you couldn't think of a different topic for your weekly contractual obligation, chap.
That's actually a brilliant point, one more reason to add more freedom to our games is to make our choices meaningful. What's the point of being good if that's all you're good for? If performing actions without consequences is masturbation, being forced down one and only possible path is impotence.laserwulf said:
Yahtzee might be losing it after all. Tell us, oh, the great one... Was this most recent article a mistake or was everything you ever done and said before nothing more than a mask of insecurity?
See, this I would have done if given the option.Geo Da Sponge said:
Even a conversation option *take the kid to his parents for a good disciplining*
Fade to black, loading
Yo appear in the parents house, both parents warp back with the kid between them.
"I'm sorry Thane, we'll make sure to properly discipline *name* for their behavior and to make sure they respect the cities nobility."
This could have been a good steam perk, Teacher: get mouthed off to and discipline all kids in Skyrim properly!
Regarding the first half, when I played through MW3, I kept hoping against hope during the final level that it'll end with Price walking away muttering that Makarov got away again, then switching over to a news reel about a terrorist attack on a tourist hotel resort, with a clip of you shooting at innocent civvies running away.
Yahtzee's not saying that being able to have kids be killed in a game - possibly by dragon/creature rampage, being confidently targeted, or intentionally Killing them off is a good or bad thing in itself.
Instead he's saying that folks who go to the extra effort to create and/or install the ability to commit atrocities against youth have their priorities out of whack.
Sure the developers could have programmed better AI's for the munchkins, perhaps running around a bit, then disappearing into the woods. (Or even making the kids cool enough you wouldn't want to kill them.) But the point is someone thinks slaughtering the kids is so important that they invest effort in getting it to work in their game instead of engaging in other cool fantasy adventuring.
Instead he's saying that folks who go to the extra effort to create and/or install the ability to commit atrocities against youth have their priorities out of whack.
Sure the developers could have programmed better AI's for the munchkins, perhaps running around a bit, then disappearing into the woods. (Or even making the kids cool enough you wouldn't want to kill them.) But the point is someone thinks slaughtering the kids is so important that they invest effort in getting it to work in their game instead of engaging in other cool fantasy adventuring.
As stinky and gross as most adventurers probably are, after days or weeks on the road, it might have been good for the kids to run away and avoid the creepy stranger until the PC has pretty much proved he isn't a homicidal idiot anyway.
In other words: "You see kids in the distance, but they see you and run the heck away." (Out of range of your attacks.)
In other words: "You see kids in the distance, but they see you and run the heck away." (Out of range of your attacks.)
There's got to be a psychology thesis in this somewhere.
It's obvious (for several reasons) why modders make the nude mod but not so obvious why they want mortal children versus say; an end to 1 metre high invincible barriers, or imaginary encumbrance limits or when 'reloading' equals topping up the bullet count, or realistic stamina (I challenge all you modders to walk 15 miles carrying only 30 kilos of weight without collapsing and crying yourselves to death).
It doesn't just end with FPS games. In military sim games, modders get quite obsessive over the realism of their weaponry but I've rarely seen a complaint from a flight-sim modder that perhaps bombing raids shouldn't allow civilians to be harmed.
In general, we all want full-on total immersion in our games. That means that within computer-processing limits, we want a full on alternative world experience. We're not getting that.
What we get is a half-arsed pastiche immersion experience that's been thoroughly self-censored by the developers and carefully sold to you by the marketing department.
"ENTER A WORLD OF SWORDS & SORCERY! Buxom beauties and exotic Amazons await your call to arms!", they cry.
"But I want to live in a world of swords & sorcery where I can be a democratic leader and help my people realise their potential in the arts and science and eventually, free all women from slavery and sexual inhibition.", you say.
"TL;DR. Get lost, fag.", they say.
This pisses us off, doesn't it? We want what they promised. To live in a virtual world that's as full as the real world (except that we can be the badasses, if we like) and to be able to go there whenever the real world gets more miserable than it already is.
We **HATE** when we get there and find that there are arbitrary morality rules and lazy physics.
It's like winning a competition that awards you full-body plastic surgery, a new kidney, DNA therapy to remove 10 years of ageing and a million dollars, only to find that the party's being held in Riyadh.
It's obvious (for several reasons) why modders make the nude mod but not so obvious why they want mortal children versus say; an end to 1 metre high invincible barriers, or imaginary encumbrance limits or when 'reloading' equals topping up the bullet count, or realistic stamina (I challenge all you modders to walk 15 miles carrying only 30 kilos of weight without collapsing and crying yourselves to death).
It doesn't just end with FPS games. In military sim games, modders get quite obsessive over the realism of their weaponry but I've rarely seen a complaint from a flight-sim modder that perhaps bombing raids shouldn't allow civilians to be harmed.
In general, we all want full-on total immersion in our games. That means that within computer-processing limits, we want a full on alternative world experience. We're not getting that.
What we get is a half-arsed pastiche immersion experience that's been thoroughly self-censored by the developers and carefully sold to you by the marketing department.
"ENTER A WORLD OF SWORDS & SORCERY! Buxom beauties and exotic Amazons await your call to arms!", they cry.
"But I want to live in a world of swords & sorcery where I can be a democratic leader and help my people realise their potential in the arts and science and eventually, free all women from slavery and sexual inhibition.", you say.
"TL;DR. Get lost, fag.", they say.
This pisses us off, doesn't it? We want what they promised. To live in a virtual world that's as full as the real world (except that we can be the badasses, if we like) and to be able to go there whenever the real world gets more miserable than it already is.
We **HATE** when we get there and find that there are arbitrary morality rules and lazy physics.
It's like winning a competition that awards you full-body plastic surgery, a new kidney, DNA therapy to remove 10 years of ageing and a million dollars, only to find that the party's being held in Riyadh.
I want to say it's dumb to have a game where you can kill everything but X, X being kids, kittens or the damn my little ponies.
Now for skyrim and other similar games, I'm going to say it's not exactly in there to be annoying, but more like since you can do things likes take their clothes, cut off their heads and pose them, it would be a complete ****storm the second someone did something like this with kids.
http://kotaku.com/5863096/a-peek-inside-the-home-of-skyrims-first-serial-killer
Think of all the laws it'd break.
Now for skyrim and other similar games, I'm going to say it's not exactly in there to be annoying, but more like since you can do things likes take their clothes, cut off their heads and pose them, it would be a complete ****storm the second someone did something like this with kids.
http://kotaku.com/5863096/a-peek-inside-the-home-of-skyrims-first-serial-killer
Think of all the laws it'd break.
I have no real need to kill a child in a game, they are threatening and I consider them background. But the ones in Fallout 3 - those fuckers that insult you continuously and then start shooting you when you try to discipline them but you have to run as you cant damage them. Them bastards deserved, maybe not death, but at least a slap to teach them some respect.
You know the kids im talking about.
You know the kids im talking about.
I would install a child-killing mod, and here's why:
Any time actually becomes relevent, it ruins my suspension of disbelief.
It's got nothing to do with the desire to kill children. I've got lots of games where I can murder friendly NPC's and I never do, unless I'm about to stop playing and feel like screwing around for 30 seconds first.
I didn't even know you could kill children in Deus Ex, because I never tried, but consider another game. In Half Life 2 you can't harm friendly NPCs. Ok, fine. It doesn't bother me that I can't jump around in the story bits and knock people around with the crowbar. It DOES bother me (very much) that if Alyx is being swarmed by zombies friendly immunity makes it a sound strategy to launch a grenade directly at her.
Any time actually becomes relevent, it ruins my suspension of disbelief.
It's got nothing to do with the desire to kill children. I've got lots of games where I can murder friendly NPC's and I never do, unless I'm about to stop playing and feel like screwing around for 30 seconds first.
I didn't even know you could kill children in Deus Ex, because I never tried, but consider another game. In Half Life 2 you can't harm friendly NPCs. Ok, fine. It doesn't bother me that I can't jump around in the story bits and knock people around with the crowbar. It DOES bother me (very much) that if Alyx is being swarmed by zombies friendly immunity makes it a sound strategy to launch a grenade directly at her.
I'd suggest developers allow npcs to kill children but not PCs, but I know it wouldn't help, people would just complain.
"how come the troll can kill a child and I can't? I mean, it severely devalues the active choice of not just murdering every child in sight if I know I can't! quick someone mod this so I can totally *not* kill any children!"
no I didn't read the 11 page thread.
"how come the troll can kill a child and I can't? I mean, it severely devalues the active choice of not just murdering every child in sight if I know I can't! quick someone mod this so I can totally *not* kill any children!"
no I didn't read the 11 page thread.
I agree with the general sentiment that killing children is an ethical no-no. However, I think Yahtzee's argument starts to falter under a little scrunity. If the intention of the developers to withhold the player from killing children to maintain the "heroic" nature, why is this not consistent within all the games quests and actions you can take?
I've recently got a quest from a daedric lord once I acquired it's weapon to seek out and murder those that I've gained trust with, and won favor for. So by this I can surmise that bethesda thinks systematically murdering those who trust me(10 people!), to power a blade that feeds on deceit and betrayal, is less morally dubious than killing a single child? Or how about beating a priest into submission until he forsakes his god's and is damned an eternity under the the "prince of rape" through my help with this god.
These two examples are of quests that the developer deliberately created! So how do we draw moral equivalencies between that of what happens in real life, and a videogame? We really can't to be honest. An invincible child is just obstruction of the overall flow of the game, one directly imposed on the player.
I had no reason to get the mod because I don't senselessly kill people in games, but other people have no such qualms.
I've recently got a quest from a daedric lord once I acquired it's weapon to seek out and murder those that I've gained trust with, and won favor for. So by this I can surmise that bethesda thinks systematically murdering those who trust me(10 people!), to power a blade that feeds on deceit and betrayal, is less morally dubious than killing a single child? Or how about beating a priest into submission until he forsakes his god's and is damned an eternity under the the "prince of rape" through my help with this god.
These two examples are of quests that the developer deliberately created! So how do we draw moral equivalencies between that of what happens in real life, and a videogame? We really can't to be honest. An invincible child is just obstruction of the overall flow of the game, one directly imposed on the player.
I had no reason to get the mod because I don't senselessly kill people in games, but other people have no such qualms.
To those arguing against the "immersion" points, think for a second. We're not asking that a game be realistic, we're asking that the game play by the rules that it created for itself. Magic A is Magic A [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA] (Fair warning: TvTropes)
Let's make an analogy: In the game, you have cheese, eggs, and berries. You can eat the cheese, you can eat the eggs, but you can't eat berries. And the game doesn't bother to give you any reason for not being able to eat the berries. The game could have said "berries are poisonous" and we would have been okay with it.
Gamers have this ability called suspension of disbelief. You kind of have to if you want to play any fantasy game. I guarantee you, if Bethesda had bothered to give the slightest reason for making kids immortal, people would be fine with it. But because there is no reason otherwise, the perceived reason is "because doing so is wrong in another reality's rules that have no bearing on this game".
P.S. = Someone said this before me, but I feel the need to repeat it because it was golden.
Sex with adults is legal.
Sex with children is illegal.
Murder of adults is illegal.
Murder of children is illegal.
Let's make an analogy: In the game, you have cheese, eggs, and berries. You can eat the cheese, you can eat the eggs, but you can't eat berries. And the game doesn't bother to give you any reason for not being able to eat the berries. The game could have said "berries are poisonous" and we would have been okay with it.
Gamers have this ability called suspension of disbelief. You kind of have to if you want to play any fantasy game. I guarantee you, if Bethesda had bothered to give the slightest reason for making kids immortal, people would be fine with it. But because there is no reason otherwise, the perceived reason is "because doing so is wrong in another reality's rules that have no bearing on this game".
P.S. = Someone said this before me, but I feel the need to repeat it because it was golden.
Sex with adults is legal.
Sex with children is illegal.
Murder of adults is illegal.
Murder of children is illegal.
You've been able to kill children in World of Warcraft since launch if you're the opposing faction, i do not see why this is suddenly big news
The reason why i want to murder skyrim(and fallout 3/new vegas)'s children is this:
A: I don't think of these characters as people. The characters have improved in skyrim, but they still suck, and for me, they're walking quest dispensers/pawnshops.
B: Most of the children in skyrim are FUCKING ANNOYING. Most of them just annoy by constantly walking up to you and talking to you(just as everyone else), but a few of them are downright infuriating.
You're not afraid of me, even though i am your elder? I GET IT NOW SHUT UP YOU LITTLE BRAT.
Also, i argue that at least in FONV/3, children getting murdered was very much within the tone of the game. If a kid wants thousands of bottlcaps for a toy gun that happens to bring fiery laser retribution down from the sky, he can die in a fire.
(also, just thought about this: presumable the C-finder in FONV is activated with the trigger, so wouldn't max accidentally bring down fiery murderdeathlasers the next time he plays with it after ARCHIMEDES is activated?)
A: I don't think of these characters as people. The characters have improved in skyrim, but they still suck, and for me, they're walking quest dispensers/pawnshops.
B: Most of the children in skyrim are FUCKING ANNOYING. Most of them just annoy by constantly walking up to you and talking to you(just as everyone else), but a few of them are downright infuriating.
You're not afraid of me, even though i am your elder? I GET IT NOW SHUT UP YOU LITTLE BRAT.
Also, i argue that at least in FONV/3, children getting murdered was very much within the tone of the game. If a kid wants thousands of bottlcaps for a toy gun that happens to bring fiery laser retribution down from the sky, he can die in a fire.
(also, just thought about this: presumable the C-finder in FONV is activated with the trigger, so wouldn't max accidentally bring down fiery murderdeathlasers the next time he plays with it after ARCHIMEDES is activated?)
Personally, I would prefer a game where I could kill Child Murder modders. There is no reason to have it in Skyrim. You're playing a game where you can shoot fire out of your hands and you are upset because a couple of children are running around a scorched town. Grow up.