Fallout 4 Eliminates Skills From Character System
- Thread starter Conrad Zimmerman
- Start date
I loved Fallout 1, 2, & even Tactics and this is a welcome change and far more suitable for a FPS RPG.
Skill points worked for a game where you had next to no control over your character's aim. For a FPS it was turned into a damage modifier which made NO sense - especially when using guns. Just because my character has better trigger discipline, a more steady hand, or a swifter reload action doesn't improve the velocity of the bullet.
Skill points worked for a game where you had next to no control over your character's aim. For a FPS it was turned into a damage modifier which made NO sense - especially when using guns. Just because my character has better trigger discipline, a more steady hand, or a swifter reload action doesn't improve the velocity of the bullet.
My initial reaction was 'they changed it, now it sucks', after thinking about it a bit and realising that Skyrim was more like this and it didn't suck I'll hold my judgement, but so far nothing I've seen has made this a day one buy for me like Fallout 3, New Vegas and Skyrim were.
To be honest, I don't really mind this. In fact, all this talk of making Fallout less of an RPG and more of a FPS doesn't really bother me either, as blasphemous as that sounds. Fallout has, since the 3d games at least, been a hybrid of FPS and RPG, and realistically, it's been rather mediocre at both in terms of gameplay. I loved both Fallout 3 and New Vegas, but I have to admit both aspects of the game seemed to only get in each others' way and pull focus from each other. So, if their intention is to make it a good FPS with shitty RPG elements, rather than a mediocre FPS with mediocre RPG elements, then I don't really mind.
Also, as far as "dumbing it down for the filthy casuals" is concerned, I ask you, what exactly are they dumbing down? Is the mind bending and intellectually taxing puzzle of putting skill points into energy weapons because you want to use energy weapons more effectively really that much of a difference from selecting perks that do pretty much the same thing? I'm not sure why people immediately think a game mechanic is "smart" just because it involves numbers, and why the removal of numbers is automatically a bad thing. Morrowind had numbers leaking out of every orifice, but I think we can agree, as good as the game was, no one is praising it for its atrocious combat. Honestly, there's a reason why pen and paper RPGs use so many numbers and formulae, and why real time combat in video games use less of them. It's because we have more appropriate ways of representing combat than simply rolling a dice.
In Morrowind it was excruciating to carefully aim your bow, time the shot, then release the arrow and watch it strike your enemy directly in the stomach, only to have the game then roll a dice, have it come up snake eyes, and arbitrarily decide it doesn't count. Don't even get me started on embedding an axe into someone's skull, only to somehow miss every shot. You couldn't blow your nose in that game without a dice roll connected to a complicated formula deciding you somehow fucked up.
Now, I know, Morrowind had much more to it than combat, but the Fallout games have been pretty much nothing but combat. The crafting is about as standard as crafting gets, the lock picking and hacking, as much as I enjoy the hacking mini-game, are also pretty standard RPG elements, and there's not really anything else in the game that really makes that much use of complex number systems.
Also, as far as "dumbing it down for the filthy casuals" is concerned, I ask you, what exactly are they dumbing down? Is the mind bending and intellectually taxing puzzle of putting skill points into energy weapons because you want to use energy weapons more effectively really that much of a difference from selecting perks that do pretty much the same thing? I'm not sure why people immediately think a game mechanic is "smart" just because it involves numbers, and why the removal of numbers is automatically a bad thing. Morrowind had numbers leaking out of every orifice, but I think we can agree, as good as the game was, no one is praising it for its atrocious combat. Honestly, there's a reason why pen and paper RPGs use so many numbers and formulae, and why real time combat in video games use less of them. It's because we have more appropriate ways of representing combat than simply rolling a dice.
In Morrowind it was excruciating to carefully aim your bow, time the shot, then release the arrow and watch it strike your enemy directly in the stomach, only to have the game then roll a dice, have it come up snake eyes, and arbitrarily decide it doesn't count. Don't even get me started on embedding an axe into someone's skull, only to somehow miss every shot. You couldn't blow your nose in that game without a dice roll connected to a complicated formula deciding you somehow fucked up.
Now, I know, Morrowind had much more to it than combat, but the Fallout games have been pretty much nothing but combat. The crafting is about as standard as crafting gets, the lock picking and hacking, as much as I enjoy the hacking mini-game, are also pretty standard RPG elements, and there's not really anything else in the game that really makes that much use of complex number systems.
I don't honestly care so long as it's not dumbed down to the point where the character building meta-game is worthless.
That's one thing I really, really, really hated about some "improvements" made to more modern games. Take Diablo 3 for instance - simplified it so much at release that it was boring compared to Diablo II.
I don't need games to be stupider for me to enjoy them, thanks.
That's one thing I really, really, really hated about some "improvements" made to more modern games. Take Diablo 3 for instance - simplified it so much at release that it was boring compared to Diablo II.
I don't need games to be stupider for me to enjoy them, thanks.
The thing about perks is that they encourage overspecialization as readily as points do, they just go about it in a different way. At the same time, with the way weapons tend to be grouped, armament that you've never touched tend to be just as effective as your favorite kit simply because they got lumped together in the same perk.
A far better skill system can be seen in Age Of Decadence. Skills are associated with each other, which means that putting points into sword also grants a smaller number of points in dagger. There's no logical reason that a swordsmaster wouldn't know which end of a knife to hold, and the game reflects that.
Hate the minmaxing that Fallout 3 encouraged? Putting points into rifles now provides trickle down benefit to handguns and big guns. Points into mechanics benefits science, and points into science benefit medicine.
Worried that you can now just max everything again, only it's easier now? Successive ranks in the same skill steadily cost more points to raise, reflecting how much harder it gets to improve a skill when you already know so much of it.
Concerned that this will encourage everyone to be a jack-of-all-trades character? Remember that combat won't let you survive if you're only so-so with all manner of weapons, rather than pretty good with at least one of them. Skill checks would still require you to have enough science or medicine to purify that water, not two 60% checks. Equal amounts of everything wouldn't be too smart.
The core problem with Bethesda's behavior, is that they consistently assume simplification is the only right answer. They've never really tried increasing the intricacy of game mechanics, and they're not willing to give it a shot.
A far better skill system can be seen in Age Of Decadence. Skills are associated with each other, which means that putting points into sword also grants a smaller number of points in dagger. There's no logical reason that a swordsmaster wouldn't know which end of a knife to hold, and the game reflects that.
Hate the minmaxing that Fallout 3 encouraged? Putting points into rifles now provides trickle down benefit to handguns and big guns. Points into mechanics benefits science, and points into science benefit medicine.
Worried that you can now just max everything again, only it's easier now? Successive ranks in the same skill steadily cost more points to raise, reflecting how much harder it gets to improve a skill when you already know so much of it.
Concerned that this will encourage everyone to be a jack-of-all-trades character? Remember that combat won't let you survive if you're only so-so with all manner of weapons, rather than pretty good with at least one of them. Skill checks would still require you to have enough science or medicine to purify that water, not two 60% checks. Equal amounts of everything wouldn't be too smart.
The core problem with Bethesda's behavior, is that they consistently assume simplification is the only right answer. They've never really tried increasing the intricacy of game mechanics, and they're not willing to give it a shot.
Looks like this way they have tied firearms over multiple skills, so that you don't have to specials in one specific skill to be gun-master.
Strength:
Heavy Weapons
Recoil
Shotguns
Perception:
Leaver-Rifle
Energy Weapon-Disintegration or Energy Weapons.
Sniper Rifle
Shooting through walls
Extra limb damage/cripple
Charisma:
Hold-up mechanic?
Intelligence:
Energy Weapons or something to do with Energy Weapons.
Agility:
Pistols
Automatic Weapons
Rapid Fire
Strength:
Heavy Weapons
Recoil
Shotguns
Perception:
Leaver-Rifle
Energy Weapon-Disintegration or Energy Weapons.
Sniper Rifle
Shooting through walls
Extra limb damage/cripple
Charisma:
Hold-up mechanic?
Intelligence:
Energy Weapons or something to do with Energy Weapons.
Agility:
Pistols
Automatic Weapons
Rapid Fire
Well, the only good thing I see is that you won't shoot yourself in the leg if you want to play a 3>INT charater for fun dialogue options. But I doubt they will include that, so I guess nothing new on the Bethesda dumbing down front.
No skills, a voiced protagonist and a set character backstory. I knew this game would be a piece of shit.
I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed a multiplayer mode at this rate. I mean if they're trying to pander to the lowest common denominator then why not go all the way?
I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed a multiplayer mode at this rate. I mean if they're trying to pander to the lowest common denominator then why not go all the way?
Honestly, I never really felt like an incremental point system really works in a first person shooter.
I can understand it in a top-down RPG, based on rolls and all that.
But, if you're aiming and shooting, can you honestly tell me the difference between level 45 Small guns and level 46?
I can understand it in a top-down RPG, based on rolls and all that.
But, if you're aiming and shooting, can you honestly tell me the difference between level 45 Small guns and level 46?
Between Hasbro killing the D&D forums and now this, I'm secretly hoping that they decided to move April Fool's day to September and nobody told me.
You know, one of the most memorable characters I made in Daggerfall had his primary and major skillset consist exclusively of languages (though there may have been one non-language slot, now that I think of it; I can't remember just how many skill slots you had). It seems ludicrously impractical, and indeed it was. But after spending several levels dodging and running away, I reached a point where (animals, undead, and specific quests aside) I didn't have to fight anything unless I wanted to. I beat the game with that character, though it took a while and I died a lot. So don't tell me that "skills have no place in an FPS"; I know for a fact that's not true.
Years later, when I fired up Morrowind, I was deeply disappointed to see how many skills they'd stripped out. I remember wondering how it could still be a good game (it was) and hoping it didn't suffer too much from what it lost (it didn't, arguably). Sitting here more than a decade later, that seems hopelessly naive. I know that change has to be made, that if nothing changes, nothing will improve. But difference for difference's sake gave us Civilization 5 and Master of Orion 3.
From somebody who's been playing Fallout games since before Fallout existed- don't fuck this up, Zenimax.
You know, one of the most memorable characters I made in Daggerfall had his primary and major skillset consist exclusively of languages (though there may have been one non-language slot, now that I think of it; I can't remember just how many skill slots you had). It seems ludicrously impractical, and indeed it was. But after spending several levels dodging and running away, I reached a point where (animals, undead, and specific quests aside) I didn't have to fight anything unless I wanted to. I beat the game with that character, though it took a while and I died a lot. So don't tell me that "skills have no place in an FPS"; I know for a fact that's not true.
Years later, when I fired up Morrowind, I was deeply disappointed to see how many skills they'd stripped out. I remember wondering how it could still be a good game (it was) and hoping it didn't suffer too much from what it lost (it didn't, arguably). Sitting here more than a decade later, that seems hopelessly naive. I know that change has to be made, that if nothing changes, nothing will improve. But difference for difference's sake gave us Civilization 5 and Master of Orion 3.
From somebody who's been playing Fallout games since before Fallout existed- don't fuck this up, Zenimax.
No sir, I don't like it. The skill & special system, at least on the surface, bore a fairly close similarity to the CP2020 mechanics, along with a few other things it made the game familiar, a lot of it echoes what I liked about CP2020.
To be fair, I'm now familiar enough with the game that the change won't put me off too much, it's mildly annoying but the main draw will still be there. This isn't a good thing for me, but I'll get over it.
To be fair, I'm now familiar enough with the game that the change won't put me off too much, it's mildly annoying but the main draw will still be there. This isn't a good thing for me, but I'll get over it.
What's that? Bethesda is removing RPG elements from their "RPG"?
Say it ain't so, surely only Nostradamus himself would have been able to foresee such an event.
Bethesda made it exceeding clear with Skyrim that they're not interested in making RPGs anymore, they're interested in making open-world action games. Anyone that wanted Fallout 4 to be an RPG should have realized that that's not what they were gonna get the moment it was announced and adjusted their expectations accordingly.
At this point everyone already knows what "Streamlining" is codespeak for. It means removing systems instead of improving upon them, it means taking away options so that the lowest common denominator [http://www.pcgamer.com/dishonored-clues-hints/] doesn't get confused in their little heads.
Personally my hype for this game could not get any lower without physically tunneling into the Earth's core.
Say it ain't so, surely only Nostradamus himself would have been able to foresee such an event.
Bethesda made it exceeding clear with Skyrim that they're not interested in making RPGs anymore, they're interested in making open-world action games. Anyone that wanted Fallout 4 to be an RPG should have realized that that's not what they were gonna get the moment it was announced and adjusted their expectations accordingly.
At this point everyone already knows what "Streamlining" is codespeak for. It means removing systems instead of improving upon them, it means taking away options so that the lowest common denominator [http://www.pcgamer.com/dishonored-clues-hints/] doesn't get confused in their little heads.
Personally my hype for this game could not get any lower without physically tunneling into the Earth's core.
No they have not, the unwashed masses just don't understand the concept of a redundant mechanic.
What is the difference between A: Increasing a stat that makes you do more damage with guns, and B: Buying a perk that makes you do more damage with guns? Give up? NOTHING!
Skill points and Perk points in Fallout are acquired exactly the same way, and serve almost exactly the same function; Perks just offer a little bit more nuance. You still basically trade in EXP for character upgrades, they just don't call them different names anymore.
This does NOT reduce the games mechanical depth whatsoever, if anything it INCREASES it. A single resource for upgrades means you have to be more conscientious of how you choose to spend it.
In Fallout 3 and New Vegas, there were lots of Gun perks that essentially became dead weight, because once you got your appropriate Guns skill to 100 and your Agility to 10, the increases to your V.A.T.S accuracy became negligible; you could already headshot a Deathclaw with nothing but your base stats.
Redundant, pointless mechanics are is just shitty, inelegant design.
There was no real choice to be made regarding which Perk to get because, late enough into the game, none of them were necessary. Maybe Fallout 4 will fix this problem, and maybe it won't. But it certainly isn't any more "Casual" for adhering to a basic principal of game design; don't make the system any more complicated than it needs to be.
What is the difference between A: Increasing a stat that makes you do more damage with guns, and B: Buying a perk that makes you do more damage with guns? Give up? NOTHING!
Skill points and Perk points in Fallout are acquired exactly the same way, and serve almost exactly the same function; Perks just offer a little bit more nuance. You still basically trade in EXP for character upgrades, they just don't call them different names anymore.
This does NOT reduce the games mechanical depth whatsoever, if anything it INCREASES it. A single resource for upgrades means you have to be more conscientious of how you choose to spend it.
In Fallout 3 and New Vegas, there were lots of Gun perks that essentially became dead weight, because once you got your appropriate Guns skill to 100 and your Agility to 10, the increases to your V.A.T.S accuracy became negligible; you could already headshot a Deathclaw with nothing but your base stats.
Redundant, pointless mechanics are is just shitty, inelegant design.
There was no real choice to be made regarding which Perk to get because, late enough into the game, none of them were necessary. Maybe Fallout 4 will fix this problem, and maybe it won't. But it certainly isn't any more "Casual" for adhering to a basic principal of game design; don't make the system any more complicated than it needs to be.
And another note for the whiners bleating about "dumbing down..." FO 3 and NV improved on the formula of 1 and 2. I said it, and it's true. Every character in 1 and 2 had to go down the same path or die. Level small guns early, learn power armor, and then learn big guns or energy weapons. Because you needed power armor and big guns or energy weapons to beat the super mutants and power armor soldiers. It was a more linear system for creating varied versions of the exact same hero. However, in FO3 and NV it was not only possible to beat the game without power armor and big guns or energy weapons (as it was possible but rarer and more difficult in 1 and 2) it was actually a viable build. I was so bored with FO characters ending the game with power armor and big guns/energy weapons that my first characters in 3 and NV went the entire game without ever getting power armor or big guns or energy weapons. And as we all know, you take a more cautious and tactical approach (less kick down the door and smash) and this is a character "build" that is easily valid and can even be overpowered. We went from "the player makes different versions of the same hero" to "allowing the player to be whatever kind of hero he would like." I guess you could call that "dumbing down" I would classify it as making it a better RPG. And again, accepting that it's possible the changes to 4 could be bad, I also recognize that changes to the series up to this point have been way more good than bad. I'll give Bethesda the benefit of the doubt.
I think we need to to just wait until we fully understand how this works and such before making claims.
Streamlining stuff doesn't necessarily mean dumbing it down, it depends how it's done. A game having lots of stat things in it doesn't always make it smarter either, it can make a game clunky and bog it down unnecessarily.
I'm just going to wait and see.
We have a set back story? No more than Fallout 3 I would assume, I'm guessing we're the kid of the parents seen at the start of the game and we just get to choose what they look like and name etc based on the parent we customize. Unless this has been confirmed and I don't know it?
Streamlining stuff doesn't necessarily mean dumbing it down, it depends how it's done. A game having lots of stat things in it doesn't always make it smarter either, it can make a game clunky and bog it down unnecessarily.
I'm just going to wait and see.
Voiced can be okay, if done right. Apparently they are working their butts off on the voice stuff.Genocidicles said:
We have a set back story? No more than Fallout 3 I would assume, I'm guessing we're the kid of the parents seen at the start of the game and we just get to choose what they look like and name etc based on the parent we customize. Unless this has been confirmed and I don't know it?
Just want to say, I just watched this and I agree with him, I think it could be more nuanced.Ticklefist said:
It doesn't matter how well it's done, it makes every character seem almost identical.chozo_hybrid said:
It's confirmed you're playing as one of the parents. I mean Fallout 3 was bad enough by giving you a childhood and a father, but now you have a spouse and a child. Coupled with the voice acting It doesn't feel like my character, it feels like Bethesda's.