Fallout 4 Eliminates Skills From Character System

Isalan

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I'm kinda torn on this.

On the one hand, I fear this will lead to a lot more numerical advantage perks, where perks have always been the interesting part of the game for me. Iconic perks like Bloody Mess, Mysterious Stranger, Grim Reapers Sprint, etc., will still (presumably) be around but your gonna get shunted into picking the "20% more accuracy with Guns/Energy Weapons/Big Guns" type stuff to make builds viable. Much like the old WoW talent system where, yes you had plenty of options for your talents, but there was only one or two right answers and most of those were %damage or accuracy increases.

And then on the other hand, skills could absolutely be a pain in the ass. Being short of a speech check because you had 74 out of the needed 75 skill for it was just massively irritating, and because of your limited skill set at the start it suffered from the D&D problem that early combat was a lot of missing and doing little to no damage. Sure, once you've get your Guns over 50, V.A.T.S suddenly became a damn sight more useful, but before that any enemy who was more than a couple of feet away was just a waste of ammo to fire at.

As always, the proof is in the pudding, so I'll hang on and see how it shapes up on launch.
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
Jul 15, 2009
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Genocidicles said:
Ah, the parents thing is a bit of a shame, I'll look it up. Still, most rpgs still have a main motivation your character supposedly has like get revenge or find someone etc. We'll just have to see how it's fully framed to us. But yes, that does result in a bit less character building on our end.

As for the voices, being silent didn't make our characters seem different, but it depends on how we interpret that sort of thing and everyone will be a bit different on how they feel about this. Kinda like reading a book, you get a vision of what a character looks and sounds like, so I understand your side. I'm just interested to see how well it's done, I'm all for new stuff like that :)

captcha: good evening - And a good one to you captcha
 

sumanoskae

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WarpedMind said:
What's that? Bethesda is removing RPG elements from their "RPG"?

Say it ain't so, surely only Nostradamus himself would have been able to foresee such an event.

Bethesda made it exceeding clear with Skyrim that they're not interested in making RPGs anymore, they're interested in making open-world action games. Anyone that wanted Fallout 4 to be an RPG should have realized that that's not what they were gonna get the moment it was announced and adjusted their expectations accordingly.

At this point everyone already knows what "Streamlining" is codespeak for. It means removing systems instead of improving upon them, it means taking away options so that the lowest common denominator [http://www.pcgamer.com/dishonored-clues-hints/] doesn't get confused in their little heads.

Personally my hype for this game could not get any lower without physically tunneling into the Earth's core.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but what is your definition of an RPG?

Because if you ask me, an RPG is about offering the player a chance to be creative by developing a character. I think a lot of people mistake the essence of an RPG for the surface.

Games like Dishonored, which offers the player a wide variety of equally viable options, are closer to the essence of an RPG than, for example, Oblivion, because although Oblivion offers the player many different options on the surface, so many of those options are mechanically identical. Blades VS Blunt weapons, for example, are two skills that do almost exactly the same thing; the only "Choice" you get to make is which set of weapon you think looks cooler.

Traditional RPG's are FULL of false choices like this; D&D allows players to level up whatever ability scores they like, but each class can only really benefit from one or two of them. This is a calculation, not a choice; it has one answer that is clearly superior to the others.

This is where the concept of the "Dump stat" comes from; most classes have one or two ability scores that are so useless to them that they are better off pretending they don't exist. Think about that; the game doesn't ever really have six stats, since at least one of them is always useless.

You can technically play as a Fighter who focuses on Wisdom, but you are only ever punished for doing so. You can't employ any creativity, you can't roleplay, because the game has already decided what your role is.

People act like it's statistics and menus that make up the core of an RPG, but saying that is like saying that the core of a book is turning pages, or that the core of a film is sitting in a chair; these things are the surface, they couldn't be further from the core.

Fallout 3 was no exception; there were lots of mechanics that served almost identical functions. If I recall, there was even a perk that increased your Action Points, as well as the Intense Training perk, which you could use to increase your Agility, which ALSO increased your Action Points. The same thing happened with Guns; you have a skill, a stat, and several perks which all essentially just make you more lethal and accurate with guns; what does the game lose by rolling two identical systems into a single one?

Depth and complexity are not the same thing.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Thought this may be interesting to look at for people:

 

Aetrion

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All the people in this thread who are like "They removed a system therefore it's dumbed down" honestly just seem like they just want to ***** about something.

Never mind the fact that we're going from a crafting system that only comprised maybe a dozen specialty items, and a maintenance system where all you could do was combine two equal items to a system where you can build custom weapons and break any object down into base components to build new things with.

Never mind the fact that we're going from a housing system where you got a choice of two living spaces with four or five visual themes to choose from to a system where we can build entire towns from scratch and establish a trade network between them.

Never mind the fact that none of the bonuses that skills used to give are actually gone from the game, they have just been rolled into a perk system that's a dozen times more complex than the old one.

Never mind that the game is giving us myriads more combat abilities like jetpacks for power armor, calling in air support, scaring off opponents so we don't even need to fight them, or hitting enemies with your rifle.

Never mind that the game has a context sensitive companion system that lets you make your companions do practically everything you can do yourself with ease.



Never mind all that. One single thing that wasn't even game defining in a positive way was removed and therefore the game is now dumber than the old one.

Pretty much every single system is more complex than it was in FO3, and people are bitching because some of the bonuses to your character were changed from skills to perks so it's all in the same screen. Wow, yea, what a huge step back that is.
 

Benpasko

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Everything I've seen about Fallout 4 so far has just deflated my hype. I'm still gonna play it, since New Vegas and 3 are some of my favorite games of all time, but fuck. I hated Skyrim.
 

Wuvlycuddles

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Smilomaniac said:
There's no two ways about it, it's about dumbing down the game for the mainstream.
The less choice you give people, the worse it is, it's that simple.
Looks to me that it's about giving the player better choice and an easier time of planning ahead. But screw Bethesda for wanting more people to enjoy their game, am I right?
 

Kahani

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I like it. The trouble with skills in Fallout 3/NV is that they were largely an illusion. Most skills worked on skill checks with discrete steps, so that there was no difference between having your speech skill at 50 or at 74 - if you didn't have enough points to reach the next cut-off, you might as well not have added any at all. Weapon skills were more continuous but amounted to little more than small incremental improvements to damage which isn't exactly interesting, and for the most part it was a system with a limited number of discrete picks pretending to give you more choice. Having you choose from actual discrete picks isn't much of a change in practice, it just makes it much more clear that that's what you're doing.

The other problem is that it was too easy to max out your skill in whatever you wanted, with your SPECIAL attributes being largely irrelevant (although they were important in other ways). Someone with low charisma and intelligence really shouldn't be able to pass every speech check in the game. Tying skill improvements to your actual attributes makes the customisation and roleplaying much more sensible, since your genius hacker will actually need to be a genius first. It also makes choices much more meaningful; if every character has the potential to do everything, there's not much point in making any choices at the start since they won't change the gameplay or outcome. It's the difference between "this character can't open this lock, so I'll come back later when I can" and "this character can't open this lock, and will never be able to because I'm not playing the role of a sneaky thief". Choice and roleplaying means choosing to do some things and not others, it doesn't mean simply doing everything in a different order.

That's partly why the whining about it "not being an RPG" really doesn't make a lot of sense at all. RPG does not mean "must include lots of ultimately meaningless skill sliders", it means that you play a role. Forcing you to make actual choices about what your character will be able to do results in you playing a specific role much more than allowing everyone to do everything no matter what. It's exactly the same problem WoW had and has tried to fix - you used to have big talent trees that looked like they should allow lots of customisation, but in reality were just three or so options disguised with lots of extra clicking when you levelled up. The new system allows the same amount of choice, it just doesn't pretend to be giving you more choice than there actually is. That's exactly what this new Fallout system looks like - you still have just as much room for customisation and roleplaying as before, possibly even more, it just doesn't try to pretend there's more than there is by hiding limited discrete choices behind continuous sliders.

Genocidicles said:
It's confirmed you're playing as one of the parents. I mean Fallout 3 was bad enough by giving you a childhood and a father, but now you have a spouse and a child. Coupled with the voice acting It doesn't feel like my character, it feels like Bethesda's.
Have to say I'm even more confused by people complaining about this. In Fallout 1, you played a specific person with a specific background, a specific task and a specific story to follow. You could change your name, appearance and skills, but that was it. In Fallout 2, you played a specific person with a specific background, a specific task and a specific story to follow. You could change your name, appearance and skills, but that was it. In Fallout 3, you played a specific person with a specific background, a specific task and a specific story to follow. You could change your name, appearance and skills, but that was it. In Fallout New Vegas, you played a specific person with a specific background, a specific task and a specific story to follow. You could change your name, appearance and skills, but that was it. In Fallout 4, you will play a specific person with a specific background, a specific task and a specific story to follow. You can change your name, appearance and skills, but that's it. But for some reason the fifth time around everyone gets all upset because it's "not their character".

And of course, we can always look at some of the classic RPGs to see how a real RPG does it instead of Fallout which apparently isn't one any more. In Baldur's Gate, you are a specific person with a specific background, raised in a specific place by specific people with specific companions, then sent out with a specific task and story to follow. You can change your name, appearance and skills, but that's it. Neverwinter Nights 2? Same. Knights of the Old Republic? Same. Dragon Age? You pick one of six different backgrounds. Dragon Age 2? You choose nothing except class. Mass Effect? A couple of choices for background and class. In Planescape: Torment, you are a specific person with a specific background, and you can't change your name, appearance, or anything else. Also you have a voice. In fact, the only one of the Infinity Engine-style games in which you can choose everything about your characters is Icewind Dale, notable for being the game that focussed almost entirely on combat and hardly at all on actual roleplaying. But for some reason it's bad when Fallout 4 does exactly the same as some of the best RPGs ever made, including every previous game in the series.
 

IceStar100

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I though about this and I'm in the for it group. Part of the reason I liked skyrim was the just play the game mode. Want to be better with sword and shield. Use a sword and shield. I know that you could do that on morrowind but I always felt like I was missing out if I didn't grind. Even in oblivion I did it. The first hour was spent grinding before I played the game. Make me unlearn grinding and just play. Still I can see the other camps complaint. Now everyone is a god and not one is a snowflake.
 

kenu12345

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chozo_hybrid said:
I think we need to to just wait until we fully understand how this works and such before making claims.

Streamlining stuff doesn't necessarily mean dumbing it down, it depends how it's done. A game having lots of stat things in it doesn't always make it smarter either, it can make a game clunky and bog it down unnecessarily.

I'm just going to wait and see.

Genocidicles said:
a voiced protagonist and a set character backstory. I knew this game would be a piece of shit.
Voiced can be okay, if done right. Apparently they are working their butts off on the voice stuff.

We have a set back story? No more than Fallout 3 I would assume, I'm guessing we're the kid of the parents seen at the start of the game and we just get to choose what they look like and name etc based on the parent we customize. Unless this has been confirmed and I don't know it?

Ticklefist said:
Here's what Youtuber and modder Gopher had to say on the subject a couple months ago. I'm in agreement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOOz_fHHt0o

Basically, skills aren't very nuanced and removing them doesn't dumb down the game since the current system is pretty dumb to begin with. For instance, a person who has never used a mini-gun but maxed out their Guns skill for their rifles and pistols will be a mini-gun god upon picking one up for the first time.
Just want to say, I just watched this and I agree with him, I think it could be more nuanced.
They already said that they only have two voice actors, one for each gender so yeah I wouldn't hold out hope there. Plus this is Bethesda we are talking about
 

Hagi

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Can't say I see this as a bad thing. And I completely disagree that it's dumbing down the game.

I'm sorry, but skills as they were in FO3 and FNV weren't some deep and meaningful system with endless player choice. It was about as simple and basic as a skill system could possibly be. No loss there.

Doesn't mean this new system is automatically good but at least it'll have the potential to be. If they limit the amount of perks you can get and make each sufficiently unique and impactful it'll be a great improvement.

I'd much rather have a small number of actually meaningful perks than a huge number of essentially meaningless stat-points.
 

Lightknight

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I mean, I liked the previous style too but this mechanic looks just as usable. So I can't really formulate any complaints since its advantages or disadvantages aren't immediately apparent.

I hope it's good but at this time I just trust these guys to get the mechanics right and likely leave some game crippling bugs in the game to start that eventually get patched by them or the community.
 

happyninja42

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008Zulu said:
I liked being able to tailor each individual skill. I liked being able to max out Science, Lockpicking and Speech early on. This method , to me, seems like a mechanic to get people to keep going back and forth between locations. Can't unlock this safe? Go over here and do a side quest!
I think the problem was that by the end, everyone had so many skill points that you had almost everything at 100, and there wasn't really any challenge for the character. They didn't make themselves unique in any way. This way, without the skills, you can only progress based on the range of perks you pick, which will make you have to play to the style you tailored. I like it personally, as perks were basically an afterthought to me, since the true factor of success/failure for most things were your skill points.
 

otakon17

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kenu12345 said:
Also is no one going to bring up that this game has less perks due to this system? I really ain't confident for the amount of fun perks in this game. I always loved the skill system and it was especially awesome in New Vegas since it made it possible to make any sort of build
It has 1 perk per point of SPECIAL, that's 70 unique perks(not counting ranking up, we don't know if that adds new dimensions to each perk yet). That...doesn't seem like less to be honest. And there's always expansions to add more perks.
 

Souplex

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Scow2 said:
On one hand... this is a radical departure from the series.

On the other... maybe now High INT+AGI, Decent Luck, Dump STR, END, and CHA characters will not be best anymore.
?
High end/int/per medium strength/charisma abysmal agility/luck characters are the best.
 

Conrad Zimmerman

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Dalsyne said:
Conrad Zimmerman said:
When I think about all the time I've spent hemming and hawing over how to split up eighteen points across five skills, something with a little less busywork can sound appealing.
[silently boils inside]

Meaningful decision-making, the cornerstone of any computer RPG. Is a bad thing.

I want to go kick something.
Meaningful decision making is great, but all too often applying points to a chart feels pretty meaningless. But, then, I also think statistical busywork in tabletop RPGs is usually a waste of time too.
 

Dalsyne

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Conrad Zimmerman said:
Dalsyne said:
Conrad Zimmerman said:
When I think about all the time I've spent hemming and hawing over how to split up eighteen points across five skills, something with a little less busywork can sound appealing.
[silently boils inside]

Meaningful decision-making, the cornerstone of any computer RPG. Is a bad thing.

I want to go kick something.
Meaningful decision making is great, but all too often applying points to a chart feels pretty meaningless. But, then, I also think statistical busywork in tabletop RPGs is usually a waste of time too.
I was always a fan of more game complexity, not less - especially considering Fallout 2 was my favorite game for a long while, seeing one of the crucial elements of the game stripped away in favor of a World of Warcraft type of system is especially depressing.

Almost makes me want to wish we lived in an alternate universe where Interplay didn't sell the Fallout rights to Bethesda and instead kept them and used them for a Kickstarter a la Pillars of Eternity, making Fallout 3 a glorious isometric CRPG like in the old days.

No, Wasteland 2 isn't as good.
 

Conrad Zimmerman

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Dalsyne said:
I was always a fan of more game complexity, not less - especially considering Fallout 2 was my favorite game for a long while, seeing one of the crucial elements of the game stripped away in favor of a World of Warcraft type of system is especially depressing.

Almost makes me want to wish we lived in an alternate universe where Interplay didn't sell the Fallout rights to Bethesda and instead kept them and used them for a Kickstarter a la Pillars of Eternity, making Fallout 3 a glorious isometric CRPG like in the old days.

No, Wasteland 2 isn't as good.
I definitely used to be more interested in more complex systems. Fallout 2 was one of my favorites for a long time also, and I can still play it, but it's a lot harder to find the motivation to do so due to the pace and length of time a game can take. Over time, as my commitments and responsibilities have grown, picking apart a complex (or worse, convoluted) statistical system has become significantly less appealing to me, which is probably why most of the gaming I do for my own entertainment consists primarily of arcade-style action games these days.