Far Right Boogaloo Bois from Texas Are Who Set Fire to Police Precinct During George Floyd Protest in Minneapolis and Open Fired on Police

Secondhand Revenant

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Houseman, I get that you’re obsessed with the platonic realm of ideals and think only the pure words of an argument matter, but maybe my ability to detect red flags should be given a modicum of thought. Like these ones.
Oh neat, one for the ignore list
 

Iron

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Don’t be, I’d actually gotten confused and thought the Blade Runner character in question was named Gus but googled to double check then decided, eh, why the hell not Google the whole username. Only result was references to some British Dystopian novel and a Reddit user with the same name shitting on grey prose. The novel... I’m pretty sure I’d heard of it before, but I don’t know if I’d call it crypto-fash or anything. But Nazis and their Malthus.

Journos talked about the Base because they could pretend it’s Nazi Al Quaeda without understanding it’s just a solid name for a terror org (and I think it comes from some Balkan org anyway). That and them threatening journalists. Journalists reliably love to compare the bad whites to the naughty browns and also treating themselves as the center of the universe. As for why I’m unsure about them being an op, I generally don’t view any Siegehead group as being an op since the whole anonymous lone wolf terror scheme doesn’t lend itself well to how the feds operate and most of those guys are absurdly paranoid too.

As for the boogs, their memes are mostly built around avoiding social media censors. Boogaloo got picked up as a problem term so big luau or big igloo and all that shit. Very boomer energy to it all.
True I forgot about that "The Base" is basically Al-Qaeda but in English. I don't remember them getting threats though.
 

Revnak

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True I forgot about that "The Base" is basically Al-Qaeda but in English. I don't remember them getting threats though.
I think they were basically doing the same shit as Atomwaffen but less successfully and without splitting over Satanism. Their memes being identical probably caused conflation.
 

Iron

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I think they were basically doing the same shit as Atomwaffen but less successfully and without splitting over Satanism.
>Satanism
Ayeee that tidbit blew my fucking mind, and was essentially when I told myself to stop wasting time on this shit. A christian-satanism split in the neo-nazi movement, what a romp. I hope there's someone out there that gets paid to study this but this was my signal to fuck off.
 

Revnak

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>Satanism
Ayeee that tidbit blew my fucking mind, and was essentially when I told myself to stop wasting time on this shit. A christian-satanism split in the neo-nazi movement, what a romp. I hope there's someone out there that gets paid to study this but this was my signal to fuck off.
Fair. Mine was realizing that for all the ideological and psychoanalytic similarities these dudes have to the brown and black shirts, the fact they’re all physical cowards means they’ll never pull the same shit as the originals and the real potential for some US fascism is probably gonna come from a mix of grifters and cops. The terror racists will probably raise the temperature, which is realistically their only goal, but I genuinely don’t see how that’s gonna be prevented so maybe dealing with the guys who will be the real arms and hands of fascism is a more realistic way of stopping it.
 

Iron

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Fair. Mine was realizing that for all the ideological and psychoanalytic similarities these dudes have to the brown and black shirts, the fact they’re all physical cowards means they’ll never pull the same shit as the originals and the real potential for some US fascism is probably gonna come from a mix of grifters and cops. The terror racists will probably raise the temperature, which is realistically their only goal, but I genuinely don’t see how that’s gonna be prevented so maybe dealing with the guys who will be the real arms and hands of fascism is a more realistic way of stopping it.
Best way to stop fascism is to have a stable political scene and a functioning economy. The footsoldiers can only win if the general population agrees to look away or support what they're doing, and that happens when there's political instability and/or economic troubles. You can't dissaude the general population from fascism by telling them racism is bad or that there are more than 2 genders. You do it by making politics a vote you cast once every couple of years and so that they can find themselves a decent job or can run their business. Most people want to be left alone to do their own things, not die for some kind of higher power.
 

Revnak

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Best way to stop fascism is to have a stable political scene and a functioning economy. The footsoldiers can only win if the general population agrees to look away or support what they're doing, and that happens when there's political instability and/or economic troubles. You can't dissaude the general population from fascism by telling them racism is bad or that there are more than 2 genders. You do it by making politics a vote you cast once every couple of years and so that they can find themselves a decent job or can run their business. Most people want to be left alone to do their own things, not die for some kind of higher power.
You’re not entirely wrong, but I don’t think that’s possible. The Marxist definition of fascism, liberal capitalism in crisis, is essentially what you’re describing, but it’s an inevitability. Boom bust cycle, neoliberal mass privatization, and culture war escalation makes what you’re describing impossible. It’d be “great” (for some people) if there was a world where stable social democracies could be perpetuated ad infinitum and Fukuyama was right but off by a half measure, but that’s not the fucking case.
Edit- as an example, the authoritarian turn we’re seeing right now is a result of 08’, which itself was a result of decades of neoliberal policies. And what exactly was the response of the US and the EU to that? A combo of more neoliberal policies or a rejection of them with a turn toward autocratic nationalism instead.
 

Iron

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You’re not entirely wrong, but I don’t think that’s possible. The Marxist definition of fascism, liberal capitalism in crisis, is essentially what you’re describing, but it’s an inevitability. Boom bust cycle, neoliberal mass privatization, and culture war escalation makes what you’re describing impossible. It’d be “great” (for some people) if there was a world where stable social democracies could be perpetuated ad infinitum and Fukuyama was right but off by a half measure, but that’s not the fucking case.
Edit- as an example, the authoritarian turn we’re seeing right now is a result of 08’, which itself was a result of decades of neoliberal policies. And what exactly was the response of the US and the EU to that? A combo of more neoliberal policies or a rejection of them with a turn toward autocratic nationalism instead.
There's a reason why the world is responding this way to the virus. There is massive political unrest caused by the imposed measures and huge economic downturn. Doesn't it all seem engineered to you?

The bust is an inevitability, but there are methods to combat it and use reserves to soften the blow. The economy was mismanaged for a long time by the guiding hand of powerful and short-sighted industrialists. You may think that long-term planning is necessary but that doesn't necessarily require a move to communism (Singapore, S. Korea). CCP had demonstrated that free-market can coexist with autocratic and authoritarian regimes with the help of new technologies. CCP is seen as such a success it may convince people that they found the right formula for a society and would like to emulate it. We're breaching new ground here, and I'm reminded of Brave New World.
I personally think that nationalism and ethno-centrism is a knee-jerk reaction and a natural one at that. The same way it had failed in Greece it will fail in other states as well, unless the entire world economy collapses, the standard of living worldwide plummets and there would be less of a need for cooperation and trade with neighbors.

Prior to WW2 free-trade was practiced mostly by the US, while UK and France used their colonial systems as a closed market to buy their goods. Germany and USSR were a closed economic system. Even when Germany received funds from investors in the US it was never their intention to pay them back. The modern world is unparalleled in its connectiveness and free trade is a large part of it. I can envision it as a global ponzy-scheme, where new nations enter the system and toil while older nations reap their benefits. It's classism on an international scale! THIS is why everything is being done to continue this status-quo, and to fight isolationism and nationalism (and why Trump is so hated by global elites, i.e. the boys that go to Davos to talk business). This is also why certain countries are made to be kept down and abused, because they provide either cheap labor or resources. If you value your standard of living you will continue the status-quo, and there are VERY FEW individuals that would sacrifice their own comfort for something intangible. If you push the country into open civilian revolt you will be crushed by the state-apparatus, nazi or commie, makes no difference. The current movement is being tolerated only because it's useful at the moment. Liberals will always work with Socialists to get their goals, and when they move the country to their vision they will throw the socialists out the window.

edit: AHHHHHH GET ME OFF THIS RIDE
 
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Revnak

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There's a reason why the world is responding this way to the virus. There is massive political unrest caused by the imposed measures and huge economic downturn. Doesn't it all seem engineered to you?
It seems astoundingly natural and predictable to me actually. The wheres of various implementations of different failed “solutions” can be a bit surprising, but their failures are kinda predictable. Ultimately, we needed to lockdown for a bit but that was impossible if the wheels of capitalism were gonna keep moving in the short term so the implementation was botched.
The bust is an inevitability, but there are methods to combat it and use reserves to soften the blow. The economy was mismanaged for a long time by the guiding hand of powerful and short-sighted industrialists. You may think that long-term planning is necessary but that doesn't necessarily require a move to communism (Singapore, S. Korea).
Capitalism rewards short-term thinking on the individual scale (occasionally, but when it does it does so at obscene returns) and punishes it on the collective. So long as those rewards grant the wealth and power necessary to change policy, countries implementing various social democracies will drop the ball eventually. The culture war aspect of politics also serves to be very detrimental to most social democracies.
CCP had demonstrated that free-market can coexist with autocratic and authoritarian regimes with the help of new technologies. CCP is seen as such a success it may convince people that they found the right formula for a society and would like to emulate it. We're breaching new ground here, and I'm reminded of Brave New World.
Want to address this one separately. China’s whole literal social fascist bullshit will fall apart the moment they can’t keep delivering increases in standard of living. It’d also fail miserably if it had to actually function as a superpower and be more open, as that’d introduce more ethnic tensions and grind their political system to a crawl. Honestly, while China is the rising power right now, their model is no less fucked than the typical neoliberal one, as their inability to end protests in Hong Kong after a fucking year demonstrates.
I personally think that nationalism and ethno-centrism is a knee-jerk reaction and a natural one at that. The same way it had failed in Greece it will fail in other states as well, unless the entire world economy collapses, the standard of living worldwide plummets and there would be less of a need for cooperation and trade with neighbors.
Agreed.
Prior to WW2 free-trade was practiced mostly by the US, while UK and France used their colonial systems as a closed market to buy their goods. Germany and USSR were a closed economic system. Even when Germany received funds from investors in the US it was never their intention to pay them back. The modern world is unparalleled in its connectiveness and free trade is a large part of it. I can envision it as a global ponzy-scheme, where new nations enter the system and toil while older nations reap their benefits. It's classism on an international scale! THIS is why everything is being done to continue this status-quo, and to fight isolationism and nationalism (and why Trump is so hated by global elites, i.e. the boys that go to Davos to talk business). This is also why certain countries are made to be kept down and abused, because they provide either cheap labor or resources. If you value your standard of living you will continue the status-quo, and there are VERY FEW individuals that would sacrifice their own comfort for something intangible. If you push the country into open civilian revolt you will be crushed by the state-apparatus, nazi or commie, makes no difference. The current movement is being tolerated only because it's useful at the moment. Liberals will always work with Socialists to get their goals, and when they move the country to their vision they will throw the socialists out the window.
Liberals can bleed too, and their model is falling down around them as we speak. They aren’t able to enforce their shit in the third world as easily anymore, they’re losing to autocrats at home, the EU is falling apart, Russia’s probably out influencing them in much of Eastern Europe. Finally, climate catastrophe is gonna be a hell of a problem for them. We’re gonna get capitalism in crisis whether we want to or not. The question is which direction it falls in, whether some new model takes over and engages in another cycle of colonialism (which, hey, who knows if that one really will follow the cycle, though I’m betting it will) or if it does just fall apart once and for all.
 
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Iron

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It seems astoundingly natural and predictable to me actually. The wheres of various implementations of different failed “solutions” can be a bit surprising, but their failures are kinda predictable. Ultimately, we needed to lockdown for a bit but that was impossible if the wheels of capitalism were gonna keep moving in the short term so the implementation was botched.

Capitalism rewards short-term thinking on the individual scale (occasionally, but when it does it does so at obscene returns) and punishes it on the collective. So long as those rewards grant the wealth and power necessary to change policy, countries implementing various social democracies will drop the ball eventually. The culture war aspect of politics also serves to be very detrimental to most social democracies.

Want to address this one separately. China’s whole literal social fascist bullshit will fall apart the moment they can’t keep delivering increases in standard of living. It’d also fail miserably if it had to actually function as a superpower and be more open, as that’d introduce more ethnic tensions and grind their political system to a crawl. Honestly, while China is the rising power right now, their model is no less fucked than the typical neoliberal one, as their inability to end protests in Hong Kong after a fucking year demonstrates.

Agreed.

Liberals can bleed too, and their model is falling down around them as we speak. They aren’t able to enforce their shit in the third world as easily anymore, they’re losing to autocrats at home, the EU is falling apart, Russia’s probably out influencing them in much of Eastern Europe. Finally, climate catastrophe is gonna be a hell of a problem for them. We’re gonna get capitalism in crisis whether we want to or not. The question is which direction it falls in, whether some new model takes over and engages in another cycle of colonialism (which, hey, who knows if that one really will follow the cycle, though I’m betting it will) or if it does just fall apart once and for all.
I don't understand why you'd think that Capitalism rewards short-term thinking. It's true that successful individuals get more resources because they managed to make the right moves, which means that these resources would be spent better by them (in theory). In practice, those resources are wasted on keeping them at the top via bribes. Which is why political dynasties are a cancer, same with business dynasties. Meritocracy all the way.

CCP will fall if it loses the mandate of heaven and it can't maintain economic prosperity (not necessarily growth). They are already successfully cracking down hard on any dissent. The reason why HK is kept to its devices is, imo, a way to flush out potential dissidents. Long-term thinking, communism, right?

Liberals are bleeding right now. EU is falling apart at the moment but even if it succumbs to nativism it can still rally itself behind it and attack the people it welcomed only 5 years ago. There are avenues of success still available to them. Russia is irrelevant in the modern world and hadn't been a world power since the fall of the USSR. I keep saying it, but that only thing that keeps it relevant is their nuclear arsenal. Russia is a depopulated, depressing and destitute mess of a kleptocracy held together by shoe-strings and the mighty power of a single deified person.... It will continue to be the source of energy and natural resources into the foreseeable future.

Climate catastrophe, eh? I can't predict anything about it. I'm honestly unable to see a clear future, everything is uncertain.
 

tstorm823

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No matter how many times we go through this, you still are not differentiating between US Antifa and Europe.. That was why I actually linked it to you this time to make it perfectly clear. It is like you can't separate the two no matter how many times you see it.
Do you think they chose that name and flag by accident? Do you think the profane condemnations of liberals and centrists on the internet right now are coincidence? They're communists, and they think you're a fascist.
 

Silvanus

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I don't understand why you'd think that Capitalism rewards short-term thinking.
It demonstrably does. Companies are under pressure to report consistent and endless returns to their shareholders. It's not enough to present a well-thought-out long-term plan, with stable (but slow) growth; those shareholders didn't get into the game for the benefit of future society, they got into the game to make money. So if money isn't being made now, they'll pull out.

So companies need to make returns now and always, not later. And stable but small growth won't do, because there are a thousand other options out there for shareholders to opt into instead. And so, in order to turn a larger profit now, companies will cut costs (...which negatively impacts them and others long-term). In order to give a rosier outlook, companies will exaggerate projections (....which negatively impacts them and others long term). And in order to ensure that immediate return is definite and reliable, companies will become risk-averse to an absurd degree (...which stifles innovation, stagnates the marketplace into endless repetition, and negatively impacts them and others long term).

The whole goddamn paradigm is built on inflating bubbles and then uselessly trying to keep them getting ever larger and never popping. If you want evidence of companies attempting endless full-speed growth over long-term sustainable growth, look at the housing bubble a few years back (and the resultant crisis). If you want evidence of cost-cutting to turn a larger immediate profit to the detriment of the service and its long-term stability, look at the British railways, or American food production. If you want evidence of absurd risk-aversion causing stagnation, look to almost all creative industries, stuck in loops of aping their predecessors rather than expanding into less-tested marketplaces.
 

Iron

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It demonstrably does. Companies are under pressure to report consistent and endless returns to their shareholders. It's not enough to present a well-thought-out long-term plan, with stable (but slow) growth; those shareholders didn't get into the game for the benefit of future society, they got into the game to make money. So if money isn't being made now, they'll pull out.

So companies need to make returns now and always, not later. And stable but small growth won't do, because there are a thousand other options out there for shareholders to opt into instead. And so, in order to turn a larger profit now, companies will cut costs (...which negatively impacts them and others long-term). In order to give a rosier outlook, companies will exaggerate projections (....which negatively impacts them and others long term). And in order to ensure that immediate return is definite and reliable, companies will become risk-averse to an absurd degree (...which stifles innovation, stagnates the marketplace into endless repetition, and negatively impacts them and others long term).

The whole goddamn paradigm is built on inflating bubbles and then uselessly trying to keep them getting ever larger and never popping. If you want evidence of companies attempting endless growth over short-term sustainable growth, look at the housing bubble a few years back (and the resultant crisis). If you want evidence of cost-cutting to turn a larger immediate profit to the detriment of the service and its long-term stability, look at the British railways, or American food production. If you want evidence of absurd risk-aversion causing stagnation, look to almost all creative industries, stuck in loops of aping their predecessors rather than expanding into less-tested marketplaces.
Good arguments.
I'd like to show that in general any and all R&D ventures are in essence long-term investments. This can be seen with most of pharma. Their profits are diverted towards further R&D.
IMO those are examples of mismanagement, and not the very nature of capitalism, but this is obviously my opinion, and facts don't care about my feelings.

As always people would like to predict how the market would act and invest accordingly, but that is statistically impossible unless you dabble in inside-trading (or allegedly sold your soul to Satan like Soros). This is why sought after executives make these decisions, despite the fact that in half of the time the management-tier of the company does fuck-all to contribute to its productivity. Yet it's the easiest action to make as the board of directors and owners of the company. You can see this as a failure of capitalism, since in concept it's supposed to allocate resources in the most efficient way possible via the cosmic "free hand" of the market, yet it doesn't work most of the time. I talked about it in my post as well. It's still much better than a planned economy.
 

Agema

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There's a reason why the world is responding this way to the virus. There is massive political unrest caused by the imposed measures and huge economic downturn. Doesn't it all seem engineered to you?
No, it seems straightforward to me.

The virus arrived, and some places didn't really want to take strict measures because it's expensive and causes a popularity hit. Then the disease ran rampant and started killing people and overwhelming the health service, so they had to clamp down anyway or risk catastrophic failure (and worse unpopularity). Now they're caught in a dismal half-way house where they both racked up huge casualties and took huge economic damage too, and have to balance infection rate against economic damage. The unpopularity of infection control measures relates I suspect to how individualist countries are. In individualist countries, people will be more likely to think about themselves than wider society - what does it matter if other people die just so long as they can go to the pub or the cinema?

When you look at places like the UK and USA, they very much decided to chance it and hope there wasn't a problem - to an extent I think they were very cavalier about their citizens' lives, because of the individualism (Boris Johnson effectively cited that) and that they favour shareholders. Trump did next to nothing until the stock market tanked and if that doesn't tell you what his priorities were, nothing will.That's the handy thing about people like Bolsonaro, they say what most other politicians only think - "man up and die for your country". Where, of course, "your country" means the elites: just as in war, it's other people who get sent out to do the dying.
 

Iron

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No, it seems straightforward to me.

The virus arrived, and some places didn't really want to take strict measures because it's expensive and causes a popularity hit. Then the disease ran rampant and started killing people and overwhelming the health service, so they had to clamp down anyway or risk catastrophic failure (and worse unpopularity). Now they're caught in a dismal half-way house where they both racked up huge casualties and took huge economic damage too, and have to balance infection rate against economic damage. The unpopularity of infection control measures relates I suspect to how individualist countries are. In individualist countries, people will be more likely to think about themselves than wider society - what does it matter if other people die just so long as they can go to the pub or the cinema?

When you look at places like the UK and USA, they very much decided to chance it and hope there wasn't a problem - to an extent I think they were very cavalier about their citizens' lives, because of the individualism (Boris Johnson effectively cited that) and that they favour shareholders. Trump did next to nothing until the stock market tanked and if that doesn't tell you what his priorities were, nothing will.That's the handy thing about people like Bolsonaro, they say what most other politicians only think - "man up and die for your country". Where, of course, "your country" means the elites: just as in war, it's other people who get sent out to do the dying.
Interesting analysis regarding "individualism" in different countries. At this point any decision Boris or Trump would make will be a bad decision.
I can respect Bolsonario a bit more for speaking what's on his mind.
 

Agema

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Interesting analysis regarding "individualism" in different countries. At this point any decision Boris or Trump would make will be a bad decision.
I can respect Bolsonario a bit more for speaking what's on his mind.
The main problem with Boris and Trump is that their sheer, bumbling, lazy incompetence over covid has shattered public trust in them and their government. In Trump's case it's even worse because he's assaulted the authority of state governors too (having effectively abandoned the pandemic response to them). That any decision those clowns make is perceived to be a bad one is in no small part a situation they have made for themselves.
 

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Houseman, I get that you’re obsessed with the platonic realm of ideals and think only the pure words of an argument matter, but maybe my ability to detect red flags should be given a modicum of thought. Like these ones.

edit- oh yeah, making fun of the avi is just to fuck with him btw
I woke up this morning unable to hardly open my eyes and have been battling an absurd allergy and asthma attack WTH am I even reading here? So much Fox news. Maybe it was better when I couldn't open my eyes. GAB?!! LOL
 

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Do you think they chose that name and flag by accident? Do you think the profane condemnations of liberals and centrists on the internet right now are coincidence? They're communists, and they think you're a fascist.
Some of them are socialists, some of them are anarchists. They do not have one universal agreed belief. That was the point. That was not why this group exists. They exist for the purpose of telling the Nazi's if you want to hurt "Jews and other minorities you have to go through me first" They are from all sorts of religious and non religious backgrounds ethnicities and beliefs. Everyone from school teachers to librarians. You keep trying to pigeonhole them into being this niche group that believes this one thing when reality shows us otherwise. They are a loose group with lots of differing beliefs when you listen to what the many different individuals tell us. I am saying that yes, there are some that fit your description and then there are many others who don't is the issue. That is not universal among Antifa at all. They have a large variety of beliefs when you actually listen to them, because their "united" involvement has to do with stopping Nazi's and racist more than anything else that anyone else under the same banner may or may not believe. You are trying to tie them to a set of beliefs that only represents a small portion of those who involve themselves with this. Most of Antifa in the US could care less what others believes under their banner, they just are usually there to stop the racist from harming people or those among Anitfa that want to actively stomp the racists, Nazis and fascists. Those are the more aggressive Antifa rather than just the ones running around with medical supplies and locking arms to create a wall of protection between other protesters and the Nazi's, Police ect. The ANtifa who are protesting peacefully are not always the same Antifa members who are shooting off fireworks or throwing bricks. But since they are really just a loose group without leadership, you expect things to be chaotic like that when looking at them. The thing I actually found most surprising about Antifa when listening to the interviews is how diverse they actually were in their beliefs and backgrounds.
 
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Iron

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Some of them are socialists, some of them are anarchists. They do not have one universal agreed belief. That was the point. That was not why this group exists. They exist for the purpose of telling the Nazi's if you want to hurt "Jews and other minorities you have to go through me first" They are from all sorts of religious and non religious backgrounds ethnicities and beliefs. Everyone from school teachers to librarians. You keep trying to pigeonhole them into being this niche group that believes this one thing when reality shows us otherwise. They are a loose group with lots of differing beliefs when you listen to what the many different individuals tell us. I am saying that yes, there are some that fit your description and then there are many others who don't is the issue. That is not universal among Antifa at all. They have a large variety of beliefs when you actually listen to them, because their "united" involvement has to do with stopping Nazi's and racist more than anything else that anyone else under the same banner may or may not believe. You are trying to tie them to a set of beliefs that only represents a small portion of those who involve themselves with this. Most of Antifa could care les what others believes under their banner, they just are usually there to stop the racist from harming people or those among Anitfa that want to actively stomp the racists, Nazis and facists. those are the more aggressive Antifa rather than just the ones running around with medical supplies and locking arms to create a wall of protection between other protesters and the Nazi's, Police ect. The ANtifa who are protesting peacefully are not always the same Antifa members who are shooting off fireworks or throwing bricks. But since they are really just a loose group without leadership, you expect things to be chaotic like that when looking at them.
lel
protect jews
What if the jews are for Trump

Protect jews. LMAO
They say we are from the synagogue of satan.

What a load of rubbish.
"What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money."