Female Game Characters Photoshopped to Average American Proportions

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

This ISN'T fat:


This is what people who can " do stuff" look like.

And yet, the pre-shopped images look closer to that than the after-shopped images...Both have problems, but I'd say the shopped ones have more.I'm going to keep saying this: If they'd given them just a bit more to their waists and made their muscles more obvious instead of focusing on the soft fat, it probably would've gone over better. Or if they'd taken purely American characters, or even if they'd taken real people instead.

Animation in general has trained us to take the lack of muscle as really telling you nothing, outside of some late 80's things, insane amounts of strength are portrayed with how much someone can stop/do and not so much their physique itself most of the time anymore.

No, the preshop ones do not look more like them. If you notice here:

Bellies do not always sit flat...

Notice how " felix's belly" is out past her shorts in the first picture, and Jeter's is in the second? That is because that is how real bodies work. They didn't suddenly "become overweight" since their belly is not flat. LOL Most people do not actually have " flat bellies", even if they train like Olympians HAHA
Part of the problem is some people actually think flat belly = healthy. Jeter is top form, and what women should aspire to, not considered " unhealthy", "overweight" or "fat" in any way. Our video game portrayals of women should look like Olympians, women in top form, not some weird somewhat resembling humans shapes.

"Top form" is another point I'd like to add to what you're saying. A picture of someone who has been training for the Olympics for example, never mind in the midst of an actual race, isn't what someone normally looks like. They're at a peak of fitness, low body fat and peak O2 capacity. It doesn't last though, and in fact it's cyclical even when you're training hard (without drugs).

I have a good female friend who has been a life long marathon runner. Once every other year she drops about 20 pounds of fat, puts on about as much muscle and trains hard. By the marathon she looks like some of those photos (to a lesser degree), but that's not her default either.

No, it takes extreme training to look like this, and honestly, that intensive training is not healthy either, it is very rough on the body, and takes a toll as well. They will pay for it later. however, if we are talking about " super heroes", we think of the strongest, fastest, " top form humans" than this is what they should look like, They should look like Olympians, protruding bellies and all, because that is what top form humans look like. LOL
Of course top form Olympians isn't a " default" of what women should look like either, for the non super hero characters in games, they should look like non super hero people in real life as well.

They'd look like a full range of athletic people, from Maria Sharapova to protruding bellies. Hammertoss to Figure Skating.

The problem I think most of us can agree on isn't any one depiction, it's just the lack of anything like variety. There isn't even variety we find within the realm of the peak of human and athleticism.

The lack of variety is a huge part of the problem.

And part of the problem is people have been exposed to unrealistic female images for so long, they actually believe that is what women should look like. This thread alone shows people actually thinking the images were fat, when all they did was show different body types.

 

[Redryhno]

The lack of showing muscles on women is also another issue, however the basic shapes are more like the post pics than the pre pics, even though neither accurately shows what women's muscles look like.

You say potatoe, I say potato.

Alot of the problems can easily be solved by giving the "realistic" artstyles better defined musculature I think. FF, Zelda, etc., I think they can sorta be let off the hook considering there's rarely well-defined muscles for anyone in those games despite them carrying overly large weapons(with the exception of the Darknuts and some Gnoblins and Gerudo, they're fucking jacked to hell and back, which is sorta funny considering) and doing physics breaking leaps as opposed to Lara bending to the point of cracking.

Variety is so much better anyway, aesthetically and practically. It's a moral issue I'll grant you, but how about the millions of us who are just tired of endless variations on the same damned tune?

Like with most fans of animation, you learn to live with it and look for the subtle differences between studios and even animators because most of them use the same template.

 

[Des-Esseintes]

No, it takes extreme training to look like this, and honestly, that intensive training is not healthy either, it is very rough on the body, and takes a toll as well. They will pay for it later.

That's the thing ain't it, mate? Your average body builder isn't necessarily that healthy, especially when you consider all the heavy cutting and bulking that goes on.

People seem to get weird about it, but whatever happens to be the beauty standard right now =/= being healthy.

Especially when you consider the very different body types and how different they look regardless of simple fat content and exercise.

A dude could be hench and fitting in with the standard adonis beauty standard, but the intense regime required to get to that level can often be straining on the body. You're probably better off being a normal dude who tries to eat right and get some cardio in a few times a week.

 

[ILikeEggs]

Bellies do not always sit flat...

Notice how " felix's belly" is out past her shorts in the first picture, and Jeter's is in the second? That is because that is how real bodies work. They didn't suddenly "become overweight" since their belly is not flat. LOL Most people do not actually have " flat bellies", even if they train like olympians HAHA
Part of the problem is some people actually think flat belly = healthy. Jeter is top form, and what women should aspire to, not considered " unhealthy", "overweight" or "fat" in any way. Our video game portrayals of women should look like Olympians, women in top form, not some weird somewhat resembling humans shapes.

Um, no offense, but have you done a google image search for Carmelita Jeter? The only reason her stomach looks like that is because the camera probably caught her just as she was heaving a sigh of relief(or exhaling deeply) and therefore her abdomen was relaxed. Pretty much any man or woman with washboard abs can look like they have a gut if they completely relax their abdominal muscles.

Additionally, are you comparing athletes with midsections that have well defined musculature, even when they're relaxed to the flabby bellies in the photoshopped images?

Lastly, I do agree with the end of your post. I'd be incredibly happy if more media portrayals of women and female characters were similar to people like Carmelita Jeter and Kacy Catanzaro, because then you'd actually have people looking upto them, and potentially following the kind of real health/nutrition advice these athletes do.

No, it takes extreme training to look like this, and honestly, that intensive training is not healthy either, it is very rough on the body, and takes a toll as well. They will pay for it later.

I'm sorry, but I take offense with this statement. Do you really think they're going to pay for it later? You do realise that their recovery time and routine is as significant as their exercise routine? Athletes sleep longer, eat far healthier, take all kinds of supplements to improve recovery periods and literally have their entire nutritional and exercise regimens tailored to their bodies.

Also, here's just one related article I found http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/14/fast-stronger-longer-olympians-outlive-the-rest-of-us/

I still disagree with your assertion that the photoshopped images showed different body types. They showed one, singular, bordering on unhealthy body type, not even one which is particularly interesting or aspirational.

Stop trying to tell me what I must have been saying, when what I wrote is clear and concise. I made one comment about her height, and another about her squeaky voice.

That's pretty fucking clear to "anyone with half a brain," and it's clear that I'm talking about her being a borderline LP. I didn't think I needed to get into power to weight ratios and why being TINY and muscular would be a good thing on NW, because again, "half a brain," right?

Um, I'm not really taking much issue with the part about her height, or voice. However, when you say "but like most athletes she's an outlier.", you seem to be implying that most athletes are outliers in that they have physiques no one can achieve. Am I wrong in my interpretation of your statement?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

All is not determined by the circumference of one's waist or the diameter of their thighs.

How attractive they are to men is slightly determined by this though, and, as everyone knows, that is the ultimate judge of what is healthy and good. And, by these objective standards, any woman daring to have more than zero body fat is a disgusting, obese, fatass who has no right to appear before their no doubt Adonis-like selves.

Though the funny thing about that, most men prefer curves rather than skinny women.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/why-women-need-fat/201202/do-men-find-very-skinny-women-attractive
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35540957/ns/health-skin_and_beauty/t/curvy-bodys-drug-men/#.VbKrVvlVhHy


Repeated studies actually show more men prefer large breasts and asses, which means more body fat, not less. They prefer a woman with more fat on her than they do athletes or fashion models.

 

[Redryhno]

In games, generally, anything makes sense. A sentient blob of hamburger makes sense.

We only seem to have this debate around women though.

To be fair, the debate only starts because that's the only thing the one that starts the debate wants to talk about as well...

 

[sumanoskae]

This is a fine idea in theory, but I feel some context is being ignored.

A: Most these designs are pretty old; many modern game developers had nothing to do with them.

B: America has a huge obesity problem. Not saying that overweight women shouldn't represented in games, just that our modern concept of "Average" is skewed; what's normal now wouldn't necessarily be normal in a setting based around, say, Medieval Europe.

C: It really doesn't make any more sense for characters like Lara Croft to be plus sized than it does for them to have fantasy hourglass figures. The majority of video game characters are involved in intense physical activity on a regular basis.

 

[Lightknight]

4'11" isn't an outlier? Ok, whatever you say.

First off, Being short has nothing to do with being thin and buff.

When did I say otherwise?

Why are you bringing it up at all in a discussion on whether or not someone's physique is realistic if you don't think it had anything to do with her height?

Secondly, 4' 11" is within the normal range of human height even though it's very close to (but taller than) dwarfism.

It is close to the borderline of being an LP, and therefore literally an outlier for the Normal Distribution.

Horseshoes and hand grenades? Not only is she 5' tall as I demonstrate below, but 4'11" is within the normal height distribution which specifically means it isn't an outlier. Under that and you become an outlier. Outliers are the special medical conditions and being close doesn't mean you have it. Normal basically means not an outlier just as outliers mean not normal.

Like when Wesley was only mostly dead. Savy?

Thirdly, she's 5' tall, not 4' 11". Fact check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kacy_Catanzaro . She's three inches shorter than the world average for adult females. Three inches may make a big differences in some cases *ahem* but not here.

You're wrong, and you shouldn't trust Wikipedia. Try Google, which is generally better and only is changed at the request of the person in question.

Height: 4' 11" (1.50 m)

Says who? Here are numerous articles listing her at 5 feet tall:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/what-many-young-men-need-know-about-draft-n224746

"Catanzaro is a 5-foot, 100-pound gymnast who has been training for the competition for about two years."

http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/kacy-catanzaro-owns-american-ninja-warrior-is-first-female-finalist-2014167

"Kacy Catanzaro might just be the best athlete you've never heard of. The 5-foot-tall, 100-pound gymnast"

http://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/health/news/a29315/kacy-catanzaro-interview/?click=feed

"http://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/health/news/a29315/kacy-catanzaro-interview/?click=feed"

Fact check yourself, Google's the odd man out and is the only one that hasn't sourced it's claim.

Hell, here's a video of them saying that she's five feet tall on the show for her second appearance on the show (10 second mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=17&v=XfZFuw7a13E#t=00m08s

<youtube=XfZFuw7a13E>

Three strikes and you're out.

I made four points:
Lastly, do you really think I'm going to have any trouble posting images of various completely toned female athletes that are known as completely healthy?

Maria Sharapova 6' 2"

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBuc2Z6ibtB8UmjNkXDGBiNKkpt7db7KXoc8sQBlYhkBOLJXdS

So unhealthy...[/sarcasm] I mean, if you just want me to find pictures of healthy female athletes then you just have to ask. But walk into any gym in America and you'll find women that shape.

They aren't unrealistic body types. They are fully attainable through reasonable means and primarily discipline. My wife doesn't use the stair machine for an hour every night just to have assholes assume she's bulimic or unrealistic."

So what point are you trying to make here? What does anything you've said about her have to do with the fact that body types like the above are real and attainable without bulimia or any eating condition?

 

[Lightknight]

This is a fine idea in theory, but I feel some context is being ignored.

A: Most these designs are pretty old; many modern game developers had nothing to do with them.

B: America has a huge obesity problem. Not saying that overweight women shouldn't represented in games, just that our modern concept of "Average" is skewed; what's normal now wouldn't necessarily be normal in a setting based around, say, Medieval Europe.

C: It really doesn't make any more sense for characters like Lara Croft to be plus sized than it does for them to have fantasy hourglass figures. The majority of video game characters are involved in intense physical activity on a regular basis.

Let's also not forget that average weights are skewed towards heavier numbers than what the true norm would be. A thin person can be somewhere like 93-150 depending on height but fat people can be over 600lbs. So fat person would have a far higher skew on the data than a single thin person. You can have 3 93lb people and one 400lb person and the average weight climbs to 170 lbs.

 

[Redryhno]

In games, generally, anything makes sense. A sentient blob of hamburger makes sense.

We only seem to have this debate around women though.

To be fair, the debate only starts because that's the only thing the one that starts the debate wants to talk about as well...

The point is that since we have total creative freedom, and there are actually people asking for just SOME variety, lets see some variety. The logic of hurr durr cuts both ways after all.

Sorry I don't follow you.

Who normally starts these "debates"? Do these debates bring up characters other than the ones the person starting it wants most of the time? Or even acknowledge that there's a bigger problem at work than what their VERY specific rhetoric allows?

I think that should make it easier.

Also about the variety thing, as I said on like page 3, AAA is probably not the best place to go with if you go with the "indies=innovation, AAA=unimaginative" idea of the game industry. They aren't going to listen because as many people have brought up, the "ugly/fat/etc. people" mods barely have a hundredth of the downloads of the "pretty/beautiful/etc. people" mods do.

There's not a large enough market to make those designs for the most part, and logistically speaking, it's just simpler most of the time to have a standard body type. Go ask for indies to do it, or submit examples and designs of what you want to see. Which is one of the few positives I see with this set of shops, even if I disagree that it gives a variety of body types.

 

[Danny Dowling]

Honestly, you don't look healthy. I'd be worried about your bones shattering if I bumped into you.

Haha nah I used to fight Olympic Taekwondo. Full contact and all that dude. I'm fairly tough.

 

[Danny Dowling]

snip

Just wanted to tell you that you're rocking some nicely shaped shoulders there (not gay).
Although I do have to admit that it seems like you're suffering from the same problem I do. You probably should think about putting more work into your back to get more of a V-shape.

Yeah man I agree! I thought my back was good, but in this pic it's looking weak lol.

Point is I'm an average healthy person... this is what average looks like lol.

 

[Danny Dowling]

It what twisted fantasy is Lara Croft going to be able to pull up to hand stand if she's tubby? I can't even pull up to handstand ffs. She does gymnastics, her proportions are correct.

I agree that a fatter Lara wouldn't be able to do a handstand, but the old Lara wouldn't be able to do a handstand either. She was not desinged to look like a gymnast. She has far too many curves and not enough muscle (especially on her twig-like arms; her biceps are nonexistent) to be a gymnast. Her original design is just as much fantasy as the photoshop is. Various female Olympic athletes [http://www.blogilates.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Screen-Shot-2013-11-20-at-6.16.20-PM.png] - Lara doesn't look like either of them, but most certainly not like those tiny gymnasts.

Lara is designed to be visually appealing and not to be realistic considering the things she does. I understand why that is and it didn't detract me from loving Lara, but let's be honest here. New Lara looks much more realistic though.

There are many body types. You showed your own and it's fine. You know your body best and I'm sure you take care to lead a healthy lifestyle. As long as someone is healthy, there is nothing wrong with their body type. The problem arises when we automatically assume that a certain body type is unhealthy. I'm sure many of the Olympic athletes from the picture I put would be considered fat and unhealthy. I sincerely doubt they are, as they all have very specific training routines in order to be able to compete in the sport of their choosing. It's just that every sport (and any other physical activity) requires a certain build and body type.

I agree. The Lara as of I'd say Tomb Raider Legends where they lessened her boobed and added to her ass was more appropriate (need them glutes to be on point). Some gymnasts are absolutely stacked, some are petite.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

In games, generally, anything makes sense. A sentient blob of hamburger makes sense.

We only seem to have this debate around women though.

To be fair, the debate only starts because that's the only thing the one that starts the debate wants to talk about as well...

The point is that since we have total creative freedom, and there are actually people asking for just SOME variety, lets see some variety. The logic of hurr durr cuts both ways after all.

Sorry I don't follow you.

Who normally starts these "debates"? Do these debates bring up characters other than the ones the person starting it wants most of the time? Or even acknowledge that there's a bigger problem at work than what their VERY specific rhetoric allows?

I think that should make it easier.

Also about the variety thing, as I said on like page 3, AAA is probably not the best place to go with if you go with the "indies=innovation, AAA=unimaginative" idea of the game industry. They aren't going to listen because as many people have brought up, the "ugly/fat/etc. people" mods barely have a hundredth of the downloads of the "pretty/beautiful/etc. people" mods do.

There's not a large enough market to make those designs for the most part, and logistically speaking, it's just simpler most of the time to have a standard body type. Go ask for indies to do it, or submit examples and designs of what you want to see. Which is one of the few positives I see with this set of shops, even if I disagree that it gives a variety of body types.

Actually it is AAA MMORPGS that are the ones breaking ground on different body types allowing players to have more customization and control over their characters with sliders. They are starting to do this already allowing players to choose how their characters look. More customization is the future, and it only makes sense to add more options for players to use in that regard. Many MMORPGs have opened the doors to allowing more customization and options for women in their games and since women have been spending more on virtual goods than men ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2011/08/07/females-spending-more-real-cash-on-virtual-goods-in-video-games-than-males/ ) this is a great move on their part considering sales of virtual goods are the best way for games to increase their revenues and boost their games longevity to get the most for their money spent. Allowing player customization is the best way to allow players to " have their cake and eat it too". Games failing to do so long term will not be able to compete with those that do.

This is much more of a challenge for indie games than aaa games, as many aaa games have already realized this is the next step and have already been doing this, while indie games often do not have the resources to be able to do so.

 

[Paragon Fury]

(I will say they probably represent the average American feminist, though),

...Really? We're stooping to mudslinging levels that are THAT low?

What?s this ?we?? I?m me; I?m not a part of a ?we.?

As far as mudslinging? I personally don?t see it as mudslinging. If you consider that comment mudslinging, then you should admit they drew first blood. I was just defending American women by saying that that the average American woman is NOT as fat as these female character adaptations are. The photoshoppers are insulting American women by insinuating that these fat figures represent the average American women.

What should be understood however, is there is a HUGE difference between " being overweight" and having a different body type. Simply because someone is an endomoprh or an apple shape does not mean they are fat. The pictures are not actually of overweight women, they are just different body types. Not everyone can be an ectomorph, or an hourglass figure regardless of how much weight they lose. You can be underweight and still not have a flat belly due to your natural body shape. The idea that some think someone is fat simply because people have different body types does not mean they actually are, it is only showing ignorance of the human form. I personally would like to see more body types included in gaming. nhaving a variety of different heights, races, body types and personalities would be great.

More of this:

No. I'm willing to put actual, real US dollars down this. If the altered Helena, Riku or Cortana went into a reputable doctor, the doctor would give them a nice long chat about how they're very, very overweight.

Almost all of these characters were perfectly fine beforehand, or only need to be slightly bigger to present a "reasonable" image.

LMAO.. WHAT?!! I certainly hope you do not actually believe that. No, they do not appear to be overweight by the pictures provided here, just different body types. This may be helpful to you:

Except Helena and Riku are easily 200lbs, if not more.

 

[Redryhno]

In games, generally, anything makes sense. A sentient blob of hamburger makes sense.

We only seem to have this debate around women though.

To be fair, the debate only starts because that's the only thing the one that starts the debate wants to talk about as well...

The point is that since we have total creative freedom, and there are actually people asking for just SOME variety, lets see some variety. The logic of hurr durr cuts both ways after all.

Sorry I don't follow you.

Who normally starts these "debates"? Do these debates bring up characters other than the ones the person starting it wants most of the time? Or even acknowledge that there's a bigger problem at work than what their VERY specific rhetoric allows?

I think that should make it easier.

Also about the variety thing, as I said on like page 3, AAA is probably not the best place to go with if you go with the "indies=innovation, AAA=unimaginative" idea of the game industry. They aren't going to listen because as many people have brought up, the "ugly/fat/etc. people" mods barely have a hundredth of the downloads of the "pretty/beautiful/etc. people" mods do.

There's not a large enough market to make those designs for the most part, and logistically speaking, it's just simpler most of the time to have a standard body type. Go ask for indies to do it, or submit examples and designs of what you want to see. Which is one of the few positives I see with this set of shops, even if I disagree that it gives a variety of body types.

Actually it is AAA MMORPGS that are the ones breaking ground on different body types allowing players to have more customization and control over their characters with sliders. They are starting to do this already allowing players to choose how their characters look. More customization is the future, and it only makes sense to add more options for players to use in that regard. Many MMORPGs have opened the doors to allowing more customization and options for women in their games and considering Women have been spending more on virtual goods than men ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2011/08/07/females-spending-more-real-cash-on-virtual-goods-in-video-games-than-males/ ) this is a great move on their part considering sales of virtual goods are the best way for games to increase their revenues and boost their games longevity to get the most for their money spent. Allowing player customization is the best way to allow players to " have their cake and eat it too". Games failing to do so long term will not be able to compete with those that do.

This is much more of a challenge for indie games than aaa games, as many aaa games have already realized this is the next step and have already been doing this.

MMO's have had sliders since EQ1 and Camelot...they're not really breaking ground so much as mowing the same lawn they've been mowing for twenty years...and c'mon, you know as well as I do that outside of a handful of ones like Archeage and Black Desert, there's really not much difference between "skinny" and "fat". And those are barely played...