Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras

[MeChaNiZ3D]

The problem I see here is that this entire fedora thing became an easy low-hanging fruit to grab whenever you want to shame someone. It's become a loaded term. "Fedora-wearing" no longer means "a dude who happens to be wearing a fedora", but has the entire stereotype attached to it, too. Which is, I agree, not a good thing.

But apparently, there's now some kind of social consensus that shaming people for their choice of headgear is okay, because just like all black people are criminals, just like all women belong in the kitchen, just like all gays are flamboyant and promiscuous, all men who wear fedoras are clearly self-proclaimed nice guys who think putting enough nice tokens into women will get them laid and must therefore be reminded of this at every opportunity.

But as you said, it's not actually shaming for choice of headgear. It's the stereotype. I am another who is sick of the entire concept and wish people would stop fueling the fire, but when a hypothetical person on the internet uses the phrase fedora-wearing it's more likely they're implying all the nice guy crap than just admonishing for the hat.

 

[Batou667]

Hmm. I see the OP's point and I think it's refreshing to see a feminist applying logic evenly - if something is wrong for side A to do, side B can't also do it without waiving claim to the moral high ground.

However.

I think the OP is making the mistake of applying a touchy-feely, empathetic, social justice kind of treatment to a situation that frankly doesn't warrant it. Most young guys who wear fedoras look fuckin' ridiculous - and the few who can genuinely pull the look off, more power to them. The way people choose to dress is mostly personal choice, so they don't even have religious or cultural reasons for wearing it. So, why wear an incongruous hat that they know will mark them out as different from the rest of society? My first guess: for attention, which is exactly what they're getting. If it's negative attention, then caveat emptor. My second guess is that it's a fairly crass attempt at trying to appropriate or proclaim an unearned air of classical class and sophistication - it's a snobbish, superior fashion statement, or at least comes across as such. The miniskirt analogy doesn't really hold; a huge Marie Antoinette pompadour would be a more fitting analogy. Or why not go the whole hog and just wear a crown, if you want to feel important?

We live in a free society; people can dress how they please. And if somebody laughs at your silly hat, or the fact you're wearing a floor-length leather trenchcoat in mid-summer, or a MLP T-shirt? That's the very definition of First World Problems.

 

[ThreeName]

Judgements are subjective. While a miniskirt may scream "SLUT" to some people it may mean "cute" to others. People should be allowed to dress the way they want (within reason) without being bombarded by ridicule. Sure, think what you want, but it doesn't mean you know jack shit about the person you're judging.

That's a pretty poor example, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Actually, one's a value judgement, and the other is personal taste so they don't even occupy the same space.

Regardless, I didn't say anything about not allowing people to dress a certain way, and I'm not advocating ridicule on an individual level either. I actually thought it was pretty clear that I consider dress a pretty easy way to assume things about people. And you can talk about generalisations and stereotypes all you want but it doesn't detract from the fact that they're often true. Is it fair to say every girl in a miniskirt and brand-name tank top, loaded with makeup and bleached hair is a definitely bit of a ditz? No. Is it fair to say that she's incredibly likely to be? You bet your arse.

By dressing like, for example, a goth, you are telling the world "I am a goth". By dressing like any other easily identifiable stereotype or subgroup or subculture, you are identifying with that group on purpose. Crying because people treat you like you look is just ridiculous.

 

[grey_space]

No.

You wear clothing by complete choice, and the clothing you choose has stereotypes attached to it. If you don't want to look a certain way and be treated a certain way, don't fucking dress that way.

And fuck this "shaming" shit, it's not about shaming, it's about judging people based on the conscious effort they've made to look a certain way and thus give an immediate visual representation of the type of person they are.

That is an interesting point.

It is rare to come across a person that doesn't chose their clothes based on their own interpretation of what those clothes represent, to a greater or lesser extent.

Most social movements are identified with at least one form of uniform or another.

Those people are rare, but not non existent, and that person's interpretation of wearing said clothes may not necessarily match society's interpretation.

Apart from people who wear Tapout/Affliction t-shirts.

ALL of those people are cunts.

(I Jest. MOST of them are )

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Thank god I only wear top hats out in public.

Damn fucking straight, it's about time top hats become a thing.

 

[Eamar]

So I just came home to bunch of replies... interesting. I'll throw a couple more elements into the mix:

1) People talking about fashion and whether or not fedoras look good are missing the point. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, of course everyone silently judges other people's fashion choices all the time, that's not the issue. I'm talking about when people assume things about someone's personality and attitudes towards women based solely on their hat.

I am relieved that it doesn't look like this is as widespread as I feared, but to be clear: I have actually witnessed people accusing a friend of misogyny on the grounds that he bought a fedora.

Related:

2)

repetition is the worst thing that can happen to a joke. Not just because it's less funny each time, but more importantly - people actually start taking it seriously.

This. I'm not talking about having a bit of a laugh, I'm talking about the joke/meme crossing over into real life. See example above, plus any number of facepalm-worthy feminist blogs that seem to think this is a real problem.

3) Please don't think I'm trying to imply that this is some massive, howling social justice issue. The thing that irks me most is the hypocrisy, as I stated. This may not be a "big issue"(TM), but, as someone in this thread pointed out, we can't use a tactic we rail against other people using without losing the moral high ground. If it's ok to judge a man on his fedora, we can't then argue that it's not ok to judge a woman on the length of her skirt.

 

[Treeinthewoods]

For me it's not that the fedora is sexist, it's that it is not attractive on anyone.

Frank Sinatra looked stupid with a Fedora on, nobody can make a fedora look good. Fashion faux pas of the highest caliber, thus I judge all who wear one not as misogynists but as appearing foolish. That view will never change, not ever. Not even for Yahtzee.

A Fedora [http://codingpad.maryspad.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/fedora_hats.gif] has a practical use however, it was popular both its looks and its ability to protect the wearer from wind and rain, It was never strictly just for fashion, although I disagree that no one could make it look good, with a matching suit, a fedora can be quite snazzy and stylish.

Spoiler: And no Film Noir Detective is complete without one!

A Trilby [http://londonparticulars.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/trilby.jpg] on the other hand, is just fashion-wear, one that since recently, many people see as funny since a ton of arrogant self proclaimed Atheists who took selfies of themselves all seemed to wear Trilby's without a matching suit or outfit (instead wearing them with a t-shirt and jeans) thinking they looked clever and people thought it was funny. It was never bullying or anything serious like some people seem to think it is. I think it originated on Reddit or something, I could be wrong.

Functionality wise, a Stetson is a better choice, or a simple wide brimmed gardening hat, or a turban.

Looks wise, Humphrey looks stupid. The Fedora is never snazzy only terrible, some things are not meant to be worn by anyone, no matter what.

 

[Coakle]

No. I got to defend making up stories about strangers you see for humor. It can be really funny to try to imagine what kind of conversation a group of people are having and their relationships. All of it is based on assumptions and stereotypes help lubricate the process.

Take a group of three. One guy is wearing a pollo shirt with a popped collar. He can be PUA, the other two guys are undercover cops who are trying to get some kind of information from him. From there you can come up with names and back-stories as the conversation goes on.

The fedora jokes use the same premise. They aren't funny because the observation begins and ends with "that guy is wearing a fedora", there's no effort or imagination, but usually there isn't any malice behind it.

 

[Vault101]

No argument from me, I don't even get the whole fedora criticism anyway. Though I prefer my scally cap to a fedora, but you pull it off. Thumbs up.

Yeah some people can and that's great....unfortunately because if association my initial response to most fedoras is "uuuuggghhhh * eyeroll* (that's more if someone's wearing it wrong though) I know it's not particularly nice but much like comb overs and out if fashion glasses (the image that comes to kind when you think pedophile) the association sticks

 

[Vault101]

So I just came home to bunch of replies... interesting. I'll throw a couple more elements into the mix:

1) People talking about fashion and whether or not fedoras look good are missing the point. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, of course everyone silently judges other people's fashion choices all the time, that's not the issue. I'm talking about when people assume things about someone's personality and attitudes towards women based solely on their hat.
t.

It's never just the hat....it's the sonic t shirt and poorly selected long coat too...

Look I can't help making a judgement anymore than I can help how I feel....how I act on said judgment is the important thing

 

[renegade7]

I'd like to point out that most of these people are wearing trilbies, not fedoras. A fedora has a much wider brim and looks like a cross between the trilby and a cowboy hat. But I'll just use "fedora" to mean trilby here because that's how it's commonly used.

Now, the headwear itself isn't the problem. Worn properly, the fedora can be a great piece of head wear and I'm quite annoyed at how horribly it's been abused by the neckbeards. Most of them are not wearing it properly. It's a piece of formal wear that is meant to be part of formal attire, as in some kind of suit or a nice jacket and slacks. It is not meant to be worn with shorts and a graphic t-shirt or casually in general.

Fedora worn properly:

Fedora worn improperly:

It's mismatched, like wearing a smoking jacket with athletic shorts. The fedora, worn improperly, makes it look you can't dress yourself. They're trying to use the fedora to add style and class to their outfits, but the problem is that shorts and a t-shirt is not a classy or stylish outfit, and the result is that the person comes off as awkward and appears to have no sense of style or of their appearance, which pretty much fits the "neckbeard" stereotype dead-on.

It's more about what attracts a person to a Fedora.

Fedoras are, more often not, worn by someone who doesn't have a clear sense of fashion identity and it really just consists of whatever they think makes them look cool. Which stems from a lack of confidence. That lack of confidence often leads to the "nice guy."

The truth of the matter is that with any piece of apparel that looks cool, it is because the person makes it look cool. Not the other way around.
\

Also this. Having a personal style requires a lot of confidence. But it's the confidence in the identity that creates the style which informs the appearance, the neckbeards have this backwards and the result is quite obvious. They try to wear a certain style that to them symbolizes refinement and class, but make no effort to actually be refined and classy, so they aren't actually refined and classy, and thus no amount of nice apparel will create an air of refinement and class.

So what does it say about a person, when that person tries to ape a style they don't actually possess and have no interest in actually building? Its says that the person doesn't have much confidence in who he is, and even more so, it makes him look shallow because it signifies that he thinks style and identity are only matters of appearance. Shallow and lacking confidence...hmmm...just like "nice guys" (TM). And also just unattractive traits in general.

But it's not the hat that's bad. If you genuinely think that a fedora makes you look better, then absolutely go for it, no judgment. If you think it makes you look better and if you can look at yourself in the mirror wearing said hat and you think "This makes me feel better about myself and is how I want people to see me" then great. Wear whatever you want, if that's the case. Matt Smith manages to look damn sexy wearing a fez and a bowtie for crap's sake, both of which would normally be really...ill-advised to wear out in public in normal cases. But if you're just doing it because you think it will give you an element of character that you don't have, you're just making an ass of yourself.

 

[Eamar]

No.

You wear clothing by complete choice, and the clothing you choose has stereotypes attached to it. If you don't want to look a certain way and be treated a certain way, don't fucking dress that way.

And fuck this "shaming" shit, it's not about shaming, it's about judging people based on the conscious effort they've made to look a certain way and thus give an immediate visual representation of the type of person they are.

This is a big part of what I find irritating about the whole thing.

Yes, clothing has stereotypes. Plural. It's fucking arrogant (not to mention ignorant) to think that because certain subsections of your particular part of the internet associates fedoras with misogyny, that's some sort of universal truth. Most people aren't even aware of the connection.

You want to know what stereotype my fedora has attached to it? My dad. He's always worn a fedora (he's kind of an old-fashioned guy). It's his signature thing - my friends used to refer to him as "the guy with the cool hat," it's something people compliment him on. So when I decided to start wearing a fedora, it was kind of as a nod to my dad. People who know both of us pick up on this and think it's kinda neat.

For the majority of the population, I imagine they'd associate it with old movies, gangsters, detectives, Indiana Jones... you have know real way of knowing which connotations or stereotypes informed any given individual's choice to wear a fedora, or any other item of clothing. That doesn't give you free reign to apply your own.

 

[Eamar]

Look I can't help making a judgement anymore than I can help how I feel....how I act on said judgment is the important thing

You misunderstand. I'm not asking people to switch off their automatic judgements, that's pretty much impossible. Hell, I make all sort of weird judgements based on all sorts of things all the time. That's just human. I'm just saying don't be a dick to someone or accuse them of anything just because you hate their hat.

Of course, if you interact with them and said interactions confirm your judgement, that's a different story.

 

[Longing]

people already judge women based on the length of their skirts.

just sayin

 

[Storm Dragon]

I wear a fedora because I like the way it looks on me. End of story.

 

[Eamar]

people already judge women based on the length of their skirts.

just sayin

That was the point.

Just sayin

 

[Eamar]

D'awww, you are a cutie Emma!

Back atcha XD Also thanks

No argument from me, I don't even get the whole fedora criticism anyway. Though I prefer my scally cap to a fedora, but you pull it off. Thumbs up.

OP, you rock that Fedora by the way. I tried wearing one once, but I couldn't pull it off : P

Thank you both kindly

In my view, feminism, like many all-encompassing philosophies, is a theoretical lens through which one can interpret the world. It reveals things you may not have noticed before whilst obscuring other details, such as what the OP has drawn our attention to. For this reason, it's always worth taking those metaphorical lenses off once in a while or at least re-focusing them, because otherwise your visions going to become permanently warped.

This man makes an excellent point. I've found it really pays to keep this in mind. If you don't... well, that's how tumblr happens

 

[Longing]

people already judge women based on the length of their skirts.

just sayin

That was the point.

Just sayin

well, that's what i get for reading half a post.

as you were.

 

[Vault101]

Look I can't help making a judgement anymore than I can help how I feel....how I act on said judgment is the important thing

You misunderstand. I'm not asking people to switch off their automatic judgements, that's pretty much impossible. Hell, I make all sort of weird judgements based on all sorts of things all the time. That's just human. I'm just saying don't be a dick to someone or accuse them of anything just because you hate their hat.

Of course, if you interact with them and said interactions confirm your judgement, that's a different story.

well this fedora hating thing mostly exists on the internet and while it is a form of cyberbullying if ones picture makes the rounds people IRL are generally amicble to people they don't know...the worst theyll do is give funny looks

You want to know what stereotype my fedora has attached to it? My dad. He's always worn a fedora (he's kind of an old-fashioned guy). It's his signature thing - my friends used to refer to him as "the guy with the cool hat," it's something people compliment him on. So when I decided to start wearing a fedora, it was kind of as a nod to my dad. People who know both of us pick up on this and think it's kinda neat.
.

yoru dad (im assuming) is an older guy...not some 19 year old yahtzee wannabe