Final Fantasy 16

Silvanus

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the game not looking like Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy has always had wild anime boy elements. In FF7 you jump out of a building with a motorcycle, you go skydiving, snowboarding with insane flips and jumps, they all have their anime moments in them.
No problem with wild anime boy silliness-- I like some of that. What I'm talking about is the combat. FF hasn't always had mega-OTT combo juggling five stunlocked enemies at once, outside of a few side games.

Also I really think it's a misconception when people say things like "X game is a departure from the combat of the previous games." Because every FF game has done that since the very beginning. While they've been somewhat turn-based depending on how much you wanna fight about the ATB system, every game has had drastically different combat due to the system around it. Just calling them turn based doesn't really mean anything when you have Job systems, or Materia, or Junctioning, or gear abilities, or paradigms, or warp strikes, or blitz's. Every FF game has build combat off a different system that goes way beyond "turn based".
Oh, come on, now. You and I both know there's a far bigger difference between the combat of 16 and any pre-13 than there is between 7 and 8, 8 and 9, 4 and 5, 5 and 6, etc. There was far, far more shared there.

This game looks about as FF as any other game in the series to me, and the strict middle ages era means it fits more into the FF looks than FF7, 13, 15, 10, or 6.

So I'm wondering what exactly you're getting at.
In setting alone. That's not what I'm looking at.
 

Silvanus

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the game not looking like Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy has always had wild anime boy elements. In FF7 you jump out of a building with a motorcycle, you go skydiving, snowboarding with insane flips and jumps, they all have their anime moments in them.
No problem with wild anime boy silliness-- I like some of that. What I'm talking about is the combat. FF hasn't always had mega-OTT combo juggling five stunlocked enemies at once, outside of a few side games.

Also I really think it's a misconception when people say things like "X game is a departure from the combat of the previous games." Because every FF game has done that since the very beginning. While they've been somewhat turn-based depending on how much you wanna fight about the ATB system, every game has had drastically different combat due to the system around it. Just calling them turn based doesn't really mean anything when you have Job systems, or Materia, or Junctioning, or gear abilities, or paradigms, or warp strikes, or blitz's. Every FF game has build combat off a different system that goes way beyond "turn based".
Oh, come on, now. You and I both know there's a far bigger difference between the combat of 16 and any pre-13 than there is between 7 and 8, 8 and 9, 4 and 5, 5 and 6, etc. There was far, far more shared there.

This game looks about as FF as any other game in the series to me, and the strict middle ages era means it fits more into the FF looks than FF7, 13, 15, 10, or 6.

So I'm wondering what exactly you're getting at.
In setting alone. That's not what I'm looking at.
 

Silvanus

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I don't mind doing a different approach to the story, but this is exactly why I didn't like them splitting the game into three parts in the first place. Who knows what's going on. For all we know Seph-Dog is probably just sticking around and trolling Cloud again. I wouldn't take everything the trailer sayi at face value.
He was doing that "defy fate with me!" bollocks in the first Remake game though. In the original he's barely present until endgame, except as a form of Jenova who has no recognition of Cloud. In Remake its the Sephiroth show, he's everpresent, he's the final boss, he's destiny bonded with you. And it's all just cos he was a fan favourite; they've twisted the story in service of that.

Plus, fate ghosts are silly. Very silly. Defeat some ghosts to destroy fate so we can change the future is silly.
 

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He was doing that "defy fate with me!" bollocks in the first Remake game though. In the original he's barely present until endgame, except as a form of Jenova who has no recognition of Cloud. In Remake its the Sephiroth show, he's everpresent, he's the final boss, he's destiny bonded with you. And it's all just cos he was a fan favourite; they've twisted the story in service of that.

Plus, fate ghosts are silly. Very silly. Defeat some ghosts to destroy fate so we can change the future is silly.
I admit I barely remember anything from part one of the remake. I do know Seph had way more focus, and was way more over present than in the original. Everyone has their own theories right now, but I really have no stake in this part. You go with whatever theory you have, and I'll just go with whatever Max has.

FF hasn't always had mega-OTT combo juggling five stunlocked enemies at once, outside of a few side games.
With the right materia build, you could do that in FF7R, and I'm assuming in the second and third part as well. Besides, in most of these action games, it ain't easy to juggle five enemies at once. That in itself is an art form.

 

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Played a bit more of the demo, and the combat ain't great. Can't say exactly why it's not, but it feels very flashy with very little oompf. Maybe this needs to build itself up through skills, but nothing from the early encounters feels terribly engaging.

Also, I got joined by two dudes who dress like barbarians but look like they just came out of the salon. Square face (and hair) strikes again. Makes it extra funny seeing them trudge through a swamp with blood splatter on their faces. Maybe this is supposed to be the silly charm, but it doesn't help in selling this grimey, medieval world. The faces also seem to have the hardest time actually grimacing, making the characters look very rodent-like.

Oh, and is it me or is this game surprisingly horny for a Final Fantasy title - I'm not two hours into this demo and I already had two instances of people jumping (or trying to jump) eachothers bones. That when Final Fantasy always had the 'blushing while holding hands' type romance.
 

CriticalGaming

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Sephiroth appealing to Cloud to join him in defying fate!? That would be absurdly out of character in the story of FF7, in which Sephiroth is scarcely aware of who Cloud even is.
Yes and No. Sephiroth knows Cloud, but the Sephiroths you find throughout the original FF7 are not Sephiroth's but pieces of Jenova and SHE wouldn't know who Cloud is. However she knows he has her cells within him and thus encourages him for the reunion. The avatars of the real Sephiroth do plead with Cloud to join him, the biggest example being at the temple of the ancients.

Does the Remake make twists on the OG story, yes but that doesn't mean it isn't telling the same story. There are modernizations to the story that they've made to make the story more enticing as well as give it a bit of mystery to fans of the original game. The producers have said the Remake project will still tell all the same major story beats players know from the original but they will have a modernized retelling to them. The original game had a lot of sloppy writing and the Remake is fixing that.

So I think you're being a bit too judgy there.
 
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Oh, and is it me or is this game surprisingly horny for a Final Fantasy title - I'm not two hours into this demo and I already had two instances of people jumping (or trying to jump) eachothers bones. That when Final Fantasy always had the 'blushing while holding hands' type romance.
Berserk and Game of Thrones. That is all.
 

CriticalGaming

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Played a bit more of the demo, and the combat ain't great. Can't say exactly why it's not, but it feels very flashy with very little oompf. Maybe this needs to build itself up through skills, but nothing from the early encounters feels terribly engaging.
Very much this.


Oh, and is it me or is this game surprisingly horny for a Final Fantasy title - I'm not two hours into this demo and I already had two instances of people jumping (or trying to jump) eachothers bones. That when Final Fantasy always had the 'blushing while holding hands' type romance.
I want boobies and fucking! Let's do it!
 

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Berserk and Game of Thrones. That is all.
I'm all for mainstream media getting its non-heteronormative sick-ass freak on, but... let's hope we can skip some of the troll and horse related antics for FF16.
 

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I'm all for mainstream media getting its non-heteronormative sick-ass freak on, but... let's hope we can skip some of the troll and horse related antics for FF16.
Square won't go that far. Now the rule 34 and hentai artist on the other hand...

 

Samtemdo8

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Beaten the Demo, this might be a very divisive game because of how different it is from typical Final Fantasy.
 

Silvanus

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Yes and No. Sephiroth knows Cloud, but the Sephiroths you find throughout the original FF7 are not Sephiroth's but pieces of Jenova and SHE wouldn't know who Cloud is. However she knows he has her cells within him and thus encourages him for the reunion. The avatars of the real Sephiroth do plead with Cloud to join him, the biggest example being at the temple of the ancients.
I'm aware of that, but Sephiroth himself also scarcely has a relationship with Cloud. It's a pretty big plot point that Cloud has built it up into something it never was.

But not so in the Remake; Sephiroth himself (as opposed to Jenova as Sephiroth) is present constantly and fixated on Cloud.

Does the Remake make twists on the OG story, yes but that doesn't mean it isn't telling the same story. There are modernizations to the story that they've made to make the story more enticing as well as give it a bit of mystery to fans of the original game. The producers have said the Remake project will still tell all the same major story beats players know from the original but they will have a modernized retelling to them. The original game had a lot of sloppy writing and the Remake is fixing that.

So I think you're being a bit too judgy there.
They've already quite significantly deviated by having Zack survive, which is another fanfictiony turn. The whole reason for defeating the fate-ghosts is to allow them to deviate from the FF7 plot-- if they didn't, then there wouldn't be any point in that whole aspect of Remake. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the fate ghosts were an excuse to have Aerith survive so the OTP can be together 4eva.

Hell, the fate ghosts themselves are already a major deviation, in both tone and plot.

Sure I'm being judgy, but if I can't be a petty purist about video game storylines on a gaming forum, where can I?? Harrumph.
 

CriticalGaming

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They've already quite significantly deviated by having Zack survive, which is another fanfictiony turn.
They've shown possible timeline screw ups. There is no proof that Zack is going to carry on being alive as of yet.

Frankly I think Maximillion is right in that this whole Remake saga is a massive set up to be a sequel-type thing as opposed to an actual "remake". I mean hell the second game isn't even called remake it's called Rebirth.

If it ultimately becomes a continuation project, then it can no longer be held to the standard of being the original game all over again. I am personally a bit conflicted because I see the perspective of people who were massive fans of the original game and simply wanted that exact same thing with pretty graphics. At the same time I also really really enjoy the opportunity for surprises and having a new adventure with characters I know and love. A new adventure means I, as a massive OG fan, can be surprised with what they're doing instead of knowing every beat for beat thing that is happening or about to happen. In the end I think the Remake is going to be more enjoyable to play longer term as a fan of the OG than if they had just stuck to the same script a second time. It's not like I can't just go play the original game again if I want that story exactly the same. Plus there is that mobile remake happening so....
 
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meiam

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I'm aware of that, but Sephiroth himself also scarcely has a relationship with Cloud. It's a pretty big plot point that Cloud has built it up into something it never was.

But not so in the Remake; Sephiroth himself (as opposed to Jenova as Sephiroth) is present constantly and fixated on Cloud.
We'll have to wait till it comes out, but it seems like they set it up such that the fake background that Cloud tell in the original is actually what actually happens in the remake. But yeah, Sephiroth is so boring in 7R, he's like a jealous ex boyfriend who can't get over that his ex is moving on so he stalks him. Its a shame because Sephiroth isn't that interesting in the original, but the game build him up really well, but all of that is deflated in the remake.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the story change they did with 7R, all of them seems to be laser focused on undermining most of what made 7 interesting in the first place, it really feel like it was made by people who didn't get the first game story. But maybe I'm wrong and they actually did get it since most people seem to like 7R story.

Worse is, there's plenty I would have really liked for them to change in the original, but none of those aspect were changed. And if they really want to change the story, they should just go bolder, like the whole alternate reality at the end with Zack being alive (but it doesn't matter cause its alternate timeline or w/e so why is it even in the game?) that could have been the remake, just go trough the event again but with Zack, would have been a million time better than fate ghost that are super useful (Barret would be dead without them) but we'll treat them as enemy for no reason and now we change things, but who knows what.
 

CriticalGaming

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We'll have to wait till it comes out, but it seems like they set it up such that the fake background that Cloud tell in the original is actually what actually happens in the remake. But yeah, Sephiroth is so boring in 7R, he's like a jealous ex boyfriend who can't get over that his ex is moving on so he stalks him. Its a shame because Sephiroth isn't that interesting in the original, but the game build him up really well, but all of that is deflated in the remake.
So there are two short stories written by the OG writer for FF7 called Lifestream Light and Lifestream Dark. They are meant to be stories that bridge the narrative between FF7 original and Advent Children.

Lifestream Dark tells the story of the essence of Sephiroth who still exists in the lifestream as a consciousness because of Cloud's refusal to forget about him. Cloud as we know is torn up with the guilt of Aerith's death and how he should have stopped Sephiroth. In so doing, Cloud's memories keep the lifestream from being able to completely absorb Sephiroth, his memories prevent Sephiroth from truly dying. Sephiroth realizes this and runs through the lifestream touching people, corrupting them and leaving his Stigmata upon them. Because if he can make enough people think about him, envision him he can use that to manifest himself again, through the few remnants of people with Jenova cells throughout the world.

Thus his line at the end of Advent Children "I will never be a memory".

This is also how Sephiroth cannonically chases Cloud to other universes like Kingdom Hearts and Smash Bros. Because he exists where-ever Cloud is because Cloud can't let the memory of him go.

Now assuming that the Remake saga is a technical sequel to the FF7 series (post advent children), Sephiroth appearing to fuck with Cloud fits because he needs Cloud to be thinking about him in order to continue to exist through the lifestream, (even when he's physically frozen in the northern crater). Also keep in mind that everything Sephiroth does in Remake is to try and break Cloud away from the choices he made in the original game. Everywhere Sephiroth appears, he is trying to get Cloud to do something else.

In Chapter 2 where in the original game Cloud meets Aerith for a minute and they break away, Sephiroth appears and leads Cloud down a bunch of alleys to try and prevent this meeting from happening. If Cloud never meets Aerith then there is no reason Cloud would get invested in the big Shinra hunt nor the chase for Sephiroth himself. Nor could Cloud follow Aerith to the Temple of the Ancients to interfere with getting the Black Materia. Basically a lot of shit changes if CLoud never meets Aerith.

But what happens, when we see Aerith she is fighting away the invisible ghosts because the planet NEEDS her to meet Cloud, so the ghosts keep her in town only enough for her and Cloud to meet, but when the meeting goes on too long they appear again to chase her away.

The story of Lifestream Light is in the same way Sephiroth's essence remains whole within the lifestream, Aerith uses her communication with the planet to keep herself together in the lifestream as well. She helps keep Holy at the ready to unleash it for the planet as soon as the Sephiroth's hold breaks, she watches the party but mostly she watches Sephiroth. When he finally dies and becomes part of the Lifestream she follows him, tracks him, and watches what he does while doing the best she can to minimize the effects of his geostigma.

This leads to Remake where throughout the game Aerith says and hints at things that she should have zero knowledge about. People speculate that this is because the original Aerith is feeding the Remake's Aerith hints about what's going on, what will happen, and how things need to happen. Giving her knowledge and abilities she should not have at this point in our story. Much in the same way the Sephiroth essence is trying to fuck with the story, Aerith's essence is trying to save it.

Kitase has said that the original ending of FF7 is the bad ending. We see Red13 running through a canyon to Midgar which is revealed to be completely overgrown and reclaimed by nature. This is a world without humans, who've all been killed off by the planet's weapons to prevent humans from continuing to drain Mako energy or abuse it's resources ever again. This is the bad ending so to speak and through the Remake's upcoming events it's hinted that there is a possibility that this time we can make a better ending happen for everyone.
 

Silvanus

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They've shown possible timeline screw ups. There is no proof that Zack is going to carry on being alive as of yet.

Frankly I think Maximillion is right in that this whole Remake saga is a massive set up to be a sequel-type thing as opposed to an actual "remake". I mean hell the second game isn't even called remake it's called Rebirth.

If it ultimately becomes a continuation project, then it can no longer be held to the standard of being the original game all over again.
Indeed-- but I think they've already abandoned the idea of being the original game again. That's why they intentionally separated the concept of "remake" from a recreation of the original.

I am personally a bit conflicted because I see the perspective of people who were massive fans of the original game and simply wanted that exact same thing with pretty graphics. At the same time I also really really enjoy the opportunity for surprises and having a new adventure with characters I know and love. A new adventure means I, as a massive OG fan, can be surprised with what they're doing instead of knowing every beat for beat thing that is happening or about to happen. In the end I think the Remake is going to be more enjoyable to play longer term as a fan of the OG than if they had just stuck to the same script a second time. It's not like I can't just go play the original game again if I want that story exactly the same. Plus there is that mobile remake happening so....
I don't want juuuust the original with pretty graphics. But I object when it's called a Remake but features a fundamentally different plot that abandoned the tones and themes of the original.
 

CriticalGaming

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But I object when it's called a Remake but features a fundamentally different plot that abandoned the tones and themes of the original.
I disagree that it's fundamentally different, nor can I agree that it's got different themes or tones. The theme of loss is still very much present, even if Zack is alive that theme would continue in the form of Aerith being dead in his world which is loss for him. Changes to the story, don't mean that the core ideals aren't still there.
 

Silvanus

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I disagree that it's fundamentally different, nor can I agree that it's got different themes or tones. The theme of loss is still very much present, even if Zack is alive that theme would continue in the form of Aerith being dead in his world which is loss for him. Changes to the story, don't mean that the core ideals aren't still there.
You don't think FF7 is a fundamentally altered story if Zack survives? Do you really think his contribution is that unimportant? His death provided the entrypoint for Cloud to create his fantasy, upon which the primary storyline is built.
 

CriticalGaming

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You don't think FF7 is a fundamentally altered story if Zack survives? Do you really think his contribution is that unimportant? His death provided the entrypoint for Cloud to create his fantasy, upon which the primary storyline is built.
I think you are focused on a misdirection. Zack is about a timeline showcase, but I frankly only think the scenes with his survival are for shock value to fans and not relevant to the ultimate plot.

Even if that were the case it's pretty clear his survival is a different timeline that does not affect the state of the party in the current timeline.

Wait and see before you get upset about something that might be nothing in the end.
 

Silvanus

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I think you are focused on a misdirection. Zack is about a timeline showcase, but I frankly only think the scenes with his survival are for shock value to fans and not relevant to the ultimate plot.

Even if that were the case it's pretty clear his survival is a different timeline that does not affect the state of the party in the current timeline.

Wait and see before you get upset about something that might be nothing in the end.
I'm not 'upset'; the timeline in which Zack survives, Sephiroth is fixated on Cloud, and Jenova is scarcely present at all is already the timeline they're using for the Remake.

You can say that doesn't affect the timeline of the original. Yeah, fine, but it encompasses the timeline of the Remake, which I had hoped would be a retelling of the story I love. I think it's understandable if I'm irritated when they tell me they're remaking one of my favourite stories, and then drastically rewrite it to sideline my favourite aspects (Jenova) and replace it with unrecognised fanfiction (Sephiroth defying fate with Cloud :love::love:)
 
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