First Person: Skyrim is Soulless

[ThunderCavalier]

After what you mentioned, I do have to agree that the biggest flaw with Bethesda sandbox RPGs is that the actions you take, quest decisions you make, and people you slaughter will seldom faze the world you live in, and aside from a few key decisions, almost nothing will ever change if you do a certain thing or not. I hadn't really noticed it, though, since the thing you pointed out in Skyrim, the trend of going into places, killing everything that hates you, and hauling the loot back to sell again, was the main reason I (or frankly anyone) plays a Bethesda game in the first place.

I do agree that Obsidian took the Fallout 3 game and made it into something unique. While Bethesda is certainly better at crafting a world in general, Obsidian is good in making it feel like you have a reason to be there, and that you have some impact in it. A Bethesda game is a walking build that is constantly looking to add to that immensely broken DPS and reduce the time it takes to kill an orc from 5 seconds to 1 second. An Obsidian game makes you feel like the actions you take could very well change the entire damn world you live in, even if said world is kinda bland.

Although, as an extra thing to note, maybe Agnis was a bit of a fourth-wall meta joke to this fallacy of Bethesda, they pointing out the fact that their games often lack a 'reaction' to your 'action', as she clearly states that the residents of the fort aren't temporary and she's just faded into the background, completely unnoticed.

 

[Zom-B]

Skyrim is Soulless

Skyrim doesn't seem to care about you or what you do.

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You know what other world doesn't seem to care about you or what you do? The real world.

As for wandering around, looting various dungeons and hoarding the items, that's the choice you've made. If you've neglected or decided not to follow parts of the main storyline and become the Dragonborn of legend, I suppose the world won't care much for you. And really, in a world where there's no phones, no radios, no carrier pigeons (presumably) the only way to transmit information is by horseback or psychic guards. So if the guards got nothing to say about you, maybe that's why no one else does either.

I don't know, maybe Skyrim is soulless. Maybe it comes down to the player to inject some soul into the world, and not expect "soul" from code stored on a disc.

 

[Wolfram23]

I think I'd like to recant my previous statement. I've had several things happen today where NPCs were definitely acknowledging my accomplishments.

In particular, I was in Radiant Rayment and they were being total bitches to me. I decided to FUS at their inventory, sending it everywhere.

Then I went and talked to the Jarl for them, and when I left the palace, a naked courier ran up with a note.

The note said someone saw me use the Thu'um at Radiant Rayment, and then said I should investigate some location. Sincerely, a friend.

I think that's awesome!

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

And this is why Skyrim doesn't get my vote for GOTY. There's sadly more soul in a game like Saints Row the Third, which is something for Bethesda to consider.

there is NO soul in SR3, and all the choices in that are just as meaningless, if not more so. the only one that matters is the ending. add to that you really CANT make your character look however you want anymore and the general scaling down of everything in the game, and it just becomes hollow. Yeah, I CAN beat this luchador with a floppy dick, but why? and the last bit pisses me off. You win! now the city is in permanent riot mode! good luck trying to drive around when all the bridges are up, jackass! thanks for the money!

SR3 is the biggest disappointment i've ever had when it comes to a game

as for the article, this is like complaining about M'aiq the Liar. Just enjoy the little fourth wall joke and move on. quit bitching

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Speaking of half-naked bodies, I haven't played skyrim, played a bit of oblivion but do they ever clean up the bodies? Dead bandits and robbers just lying in the streets, in shops, at the docks. You'd think they would disappear at some point. Why not have an undertaker guy come out and load them up. When people are wandering around doing their thing and there's some dead guy on the ground and they stroll right by it breaks immersion. It doens't sound like they've fixed this with Skyrim either

I dump the random thieves and such in riften in the river so they dont get in the way.

on my last playthrough, i also started assassinating all the town guards wherever i went

 

[TheMatsjo]

Something to think about:

There's an old RPG, you can get it for the NDS, which is called Chrono Trigger. It's about time travel and you warp around time with a group of adventurers having adventures, solving mysteries etc. There is an extremely impressive part where *SPOILERS* you get arrested and put on trial. At the trial, the prosecution is trying to establish that you're a bastard and a cad, and you should be thrown into jail. Now, at this point (as a player), you're wondering how they're going to do this, as there've been no real "bad karma moments" in the game. Then the game has the balls to start talking about how you stole somebody's sandwich, and declined to rescue a little girl's cat and stuff like that. These were casual acts with no indicator that they would EVER matter (and in other games they wouldn't), but here, at least for that scene, your actions had consequences that you couldn't have foreseen and you are forced to ask yourself: "if I had behaved differently, might I not have ended up in this mess?"*SPOILERS END*

That's something Skyrim could've easily done many times over. And there are many more examples of these kinds of choices woven into the fabric of the entire narrative. And this is an OLD game.

But honestly, I have issues with the games feeling of progression beyond story and NPC response; the simple fact that enemies level up (and that some mechanics are broken) with you means you never really advance. Coming across an enemy that you couldn't beat before, but are now ready to give is come-uppance to comes up far less than it should. If it doesn't lead to overcoming new challenges, gathering stuff is just a hobby for hoarders.

I think that's why we like the giants and trolls so much, because there's an actual point at which they're just too tough to take on. And I think it's why many of us are disappointed with the dragons.

 

[samsonguy920]

Everyone is so impressed with Skyrim, but I can't help thinking about another open-world role-playing game published by Bethesda last year, Fallout: New Vegas. By the time I had logged as many hours into New Vegas as I have in Skyrim, I felt like I had big decisions to make that were really going to change the world of New Vegas.

While I don't entirely agree with your conclusions, I can't help but agree with this point. In Skyrim you never really feel like your decisions are making any differences. With my current character I've won the civil war for the Empire, and nobody seems that fussed. One or two NPCs have additional lines of dialogue and there are more Legion soldiers around the place, but considering that a major event has been resolved there's been remarkably little fanfare. The same goes for the destruction of the Dark Brotherhood. The guy who asked me to do it seemed pleased and gave me a fat wedge of cash, but beyond that nobody seems to give a shit that an ancient and once greatly feared society of assassins has been destroyed.

I think some kind of faction mechanic like Fallout:NV had would have worked well in Skyrim. Maybe not in major towns, but in villages and forts it'd be nice to be associated with a certain group and hated, feared or loved because of it.

Perhaps I haven't arrived at that point yet in Skyrim, but I'm finding it difficult to continue caring about a world that feels completely indifferent to me and what I'm doing.

And here's where we disagree. I still care about the world even if it doesn't care too much for me or my mighty deeds. I don't know why, but I have certain NPCs I like and others who annoy me. Favoured shopkeepers, a preferred house, although I'm much less a roleplayer and more a "play the game as a game" type of guy.

There's a certain symmetry to the real world to be shown here. How many people contributed more than their lion's share to: defeating Napoleon, marching with Alexander, fighting in the American, Chilean, or Mexican revolutionary wars, or participated in the French Resistance during World War 2, yet didn't receive any recognition for their efforts?
I can imagine there are many circumstances behind that. The most likely being the main leader taking all the credit(ever see Dragonslayer?) and if that soldier even made a peep about the effort he/she made, they would probably end up missing. The second most likely? The soldier could care less about getting any credit because they achieved what they wanted and would just as soon not be held in the limelight. Hell, George Washington could have been king with more power over Americans than what King George had over the English across the pond, but it was more his choice to make sure that what the Continental Congress was working for was put into action. Then there is the third: obscurity. Nothing is happily ever after when the dust settles after a revolutionary or civil war. There is a lot of work to be done, especially towards making sure that the new state of affairs doesn't appear weak, inviting reprisals. Then infrastructure making sure that the people are fed, clothed, and housed so they don't start thinking that what all happened was a big mistake. In all that, the soldiers and the leaders have too much on their plate to care about who gets recognition for what.
Take the Napoleonic War, for example. During his time, Napoleon did more to upset the state of Europe since when Rome fell to the Visigoths. After he finally was sent to St. Helena, those leaders left in Europe had to get things pretty much back to where they were before it all went to hell. There were some changes. The Holy Roman Empire was no more, replaced by a German Confederation that put Austria in a poor position. Poland got handed back to the Russians after a short time of being a sovereign country again under Napoleon's administration. England ended up top dog for the first time, ending up in a position where it could dominate many parts of European commerce and diplomacy that it was only tasting over in the New World before this. And the seeds were sown for Germany and Italy to become actual nations as opposed to a bunch of different little kingdoms and sovereignties which changed loyalties to other countries every five years.
Anyway, it should never be expected that your hero is going to end up in a ticker-tape parade when the game is over. More than likely, it will be back to the farmstead for your hero, and when you really come to think about it, isn't that what you'd really want?
As a certain heroine once said at the end of her adventure, 'There's no place like home.'

 

[awdrifter]

I feel like the example described in the article is down to hardware or engine limitations. This game has hundreds of quests, can you imagine "one more line" or "one more reaction" would do to the over size and complexity of the game? I'm willing to accept these as technical limitations, but not as laziness or oversight of the developer. I actually really enjoy doing the side quests and there are a few times where I didn't do the side quests because I don't want to screw over certain characters.

 

[purf]

Agnis... I remember her.

I could have known this woman, but then she took an arrow to her head.

 

[Right Hook]

Skyrim doesn't seem to care about you or what you do.

I think you have addressed a really important problem here and I agree with you, although I don't think New Vegas exactly did it right either. I think this is more of an ongoing issue, giving a game a "soul" is tough, especially a game that offers such a wide and varied experience. Other than glitches, I think this is the biggest problem facing these grand open world games and if one is to ever be truly great, it needs to find a way to solve that problem, make things seem real, instead of just endless fetch quest and inhuman NPCs. Here's to hoping Fallout 4 can bring us a step closer to that reality.

I actually had a completely different experience with Agnis, I had to kill her for a side quest, I ran in past everyone, stabbed her in her bed and ran back out without killing a single person, other than her.

 

[gideonkain]

Ironically, reading this made me impressed that Skyrim automatically creates a new batch of inhabitants for the Fort, titling the article "Skyrim is Souless" seems really cold since it's at this moment in history the most intricately fleshed out open world ever created.

Your actions have more repercussions in this game than any other piece of software ever developed.

 

[Kahunaburger]

double post

 

[Kahunaburger]

Ironically, reading this made me impressed that Skyrim automatically creates a new batch of inhabitants for the Fort, titling the article "Skyrim is Souless" seems really cold since it's at this moment in history the most intricately fleshed out open world ever created.

Your actions have more repercussions in this game than any other piece of software ever developed.

And if we're counting all software, are we counting the stuff that they use to target ICBMs? That's some major c&c right there, man

 

[Savagezion]

Skyrim doesn't seem to care about you or what you do.

First, yeah it does. It just always has a plan for no matter what you do. Would you prefer her to be like kids and unkillable? Or perhaps you would prefer -10 karma for killing her vs. +10 karma for not killing her?

Second, I find it ironic Minecraft is lauded for this, and ONLY for this on this very website on a regular basis. (Even forums excluded) The difference between Skyrim and Minecraft though is Skyrim is a game of contingencies and this is a result of that. It does take what you do into consideration and adjust the game accordingly. Writing an entire article slamming an entire game using only one NPC example from the game to deem the game soulless is a pretty weak argument. There are more examples you could have used to make a much stronger case and the article a much better read as a result.

My only thoughts after reading this was, "Don't play Morrowind or Oblivion then because they are worse." (Or "more soulless" although that would indicate Skyrim does indeed have a soul.) One could argue that it was not Agnis that was soulless but your character because of how you were playing them and deciding their actions. What you say is "you freed" her and she should go to a nearby town, she openly told you that she was not a slave. For some reason she keeeps the fortress clean. Perhaps her dialogue could have been better about saying that she originated there as a maid and has no interest of going anywhere else. Perhaps her father served in the fort - whatever. She chooses to remain there as a maid. You can't free whatever is not being held captive. This shows a vague resemblance to a personality no matter how vague. However, your character, who views the only reason for his/her actions is how an arbitrary game system will react. Stealing her food or killing her is "OK" because the game won't punish you in any way for it.

I don't see anything here to complain about other than simple bad writing. Agnis is a poorly written character in a great game known as Skyrim. To be fair, at one point she was probably really interesting character and then probably took an arrow in the knee. (Sorry, had to do it.)

 

[Kanatatsu]

gee, the game is "soulless" to you because they disnt give every single one of the literally thousands of characters a complete AI script to respond to everything that you might do around or to them?

puh-lease. this article is really misguided.

 

[Kahunaburger]

gee, the game is "soulless" to you because they disnt give every single one of the literally thousands of characters a complete AI script to respond to everything that you might do around or to them?

puh-lease. this article is really misguided.

Well, Obsidian did an okay job in New Vegas. Although there were still elements of that that didn't respond well to complete freedom, it generally feels like your actions matter a lot more in that game.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

souless is TES,ya want soul? go bioware... or make your damn game!