Forget the Friend Zone, it's OK to be attracted to a friend

[axlryder]

Also, they might not have enough direction in their lives, they might party a bit too much, they might have some irreconcilable philosophical views, they might not be very honest or have some other deal-breaker trait, I might think we're just a bad match, etc.

I don't know about you, but I regard all these things as aspects of attraction. If I'm attracted to someone who parties a lot, I still want to be with them. If they party so much I don't want to be around them, then I stop being attracted to them. I rarely consciously decide "I will exclude people from my love life who behave the following ways..."

I imagine that if I actually dated many of these girls, I eventually WOULD stop being attracted to them (or just become unhappy) due to whatever negative trait they have, so I just choose to kill that possibility by never letting it happen in some cases. Obviously I have to get to know the girl and what she's like before making that kind of decision though. What's more, I can be attracted to girls who I genuinely have lost interest in in some other area and think "I COULD date them, they are pretty cute, but I think it would get boring or whatever" and decide to just keep it as friends. I view attraction as more of a gradient across several different scales.

 

[SushiJaguar]

Oy vey.

The term "Friend Zone" refers to the idea that someone isn't attracted to you because they can only see you as a friend. This term is used and experienced by guys and girls alike. It's a thing.

I honestly don't know why there's such vitriol towards the idea of the "friend-zone".

There are infinite reasons why somebody might not be attracted to you. Have you heard of the "ugly zone" or the "not my type zone" or the "asexual zone" or the "gay zone" or the "already dating someone zone" or the "no chemistry zone" or the "incompatible personalities zone", just to name a few?

The reason I have so much vitriol for the friend zone is because it shifts the responsibility to the person who doesn't feel the attraction. The phrasing is always "X friendzoned you/put you on the friend zone" and never "I put myself in the friend zone". Friendzoning is described as an undesirable thing that someone else does to you. You, the rejected person, are the innocent victim, and the other person is almost always described as having done something bad by not corresponding your feelings or attraction.

The only time the friendzone is described as the rejected person's responsibility is by disgusting misogynists who say that "she friendzoned you because you're too beta, you need to be more dominant, aggressive and Alpha, because [insert sexism here]."

Yes, women claim to be friendzoned too, and they are just as unwilling to face up to rejection as the guys who use the term.

Lemme ask you. How many times have you ever been told, staight up, by a person you have spent time with and grown close to, that you're too ugly etc for them to date?

Oh what's that? Zero times? Because they're looking out for your feelings (however illadvised and misguidedly) perhaps? No, saying one has been friend-zoned doesn't make one a rejection-avoiding crybaby. It provides a nice, encompassing concept for people to grasp to help them deal with the situation they've been put in. If you can recognise something, and know it, you can defeat it. People are afraid of the unknown, and unfortunately, when you are rejected by someone who sees you as a friend, they often don't want to tell you to your face /why/ you're being rejected. Because they care just enough to not hurt you. So all you get is a big old question mark that doesn't provide closure, doesn't provide reason, and just results in even more hurt and confusion.

And by the way, you can't put yourself in the friend zone. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Giftfromme]

I'm sick of you guys complaining about this 'friendzone'. If you are not a suitable mate, then go and man up.

I'm also sick of these friendzone threads. There are already many of them on the database of the Escapist. Also, please see my response above.

You...quoted yourself agreeing with yourself. wat?

AAHAHAH fucking hilarious. I'm glad you picked that up, I might have missed it.

But if we stopped making threads on topics people were sick of, we wouldn't have any threads lol. I've been "friendzoned" and by a chick before and just decided to drop her. It was basically her way of saying "no" to me. But it didn't matter. Also I have inadvertently friendzoned two chicks in the past in my scrubness, when I could have been enjoying sexual intercouse with both. But I was a shy scrub back then and it's not a mistake I plan on making again.

 

[el_kabong]

The whole "friend zone" idea implies a fundamentally narcissistic and solipsistic way of looking at human interaction. In this framework, women are not autonomous individuals with their own preferences and desires. Any woman will be attracted to you as long as you do X and avoid Y: if she isn't interested in you, it's not that you aren't attractive to her, it's that she unfairly wrote you off because you were too "kind" or "caring" or whatever.

The whole thing has a gross belief underlying it that you are entitled to any woman you want and that you can be with any woman you want as long as you manipulate her properly. The view holds that dating and sex are purely transactional, that male-female friendship is inherently worthless, that any woman can be bedded by your being an aggressive douchebag, and the whole thing just reeks of misogyny, entitlement, and false victimhood. Very common among Nice Guys? who *~*~don't understand*~*~ why women are all such stupid bitches who only date assholes and friendzone every Nice Guy? who'd treat them right.

I don't really see how the friend-zone implies that women aren't autonomous. First, I've always heard and used the phrase of someone "being put" in the friend-zone. That implies to me the act of some autonomous other. Second, women can just as easily be put into the friend-zone, so if your assessment of friend-zone is that the intended interest of affection is implied to have no autonomy, then neither men or women have autonomy.

In regards to the nice guy comments, again, there's gender reciprocity you're not addressing. Nice PEOPLE are the only ones who can get put in the friend-zone. However, nice people are also the only ones who can PUT someone in the friend-zone. The friend-zone is created by both parties, both of whom are too polite to express their true feelings. Allow me to elaborate using my own personal experiences:

I used to be a nice guy. I was polite, soft-spoken (though not anti-social), and thoughtful. I put the needs of others above my own. When I was a nice guy, I was put in the friend-zone by a nice girl and put a nice girl in the friend-zone (several times, actually). The basic interaction is something like this:

1. Nice guy/girl A has feelings for someone else who is their friend and also a nice guy/girl (B).
2. When these feelings are expressed, nice person B doesn't feel the same for person A.
3. Person B doesn't want to hurt the other (because they're nice/polite and wish to remain friends with person A).
4. Person B expresses the truth to person A, but doesn't directly say the cause to person A, using euphemisms or general deflections ("it's not you, it's me", "I just don't feel that way about you", "I don't want to ruin our friendship", etc.)
5. Person A thanks person B for their honesty. They attempt to continue to be person B's friend (because only a jerk would stop hanging out with someone only because they rejected your advances), but suffer with their feelings (mostly because they feel it would be impolite to keep bringing it up.

Thus, the friend-zone is created. It's two people stuck by their own niceness/politeness into a situation that may make them both uncomfortable for different reasons. When I was nice, I stuck girls in the friend-zone quite a bit. I valued their company, but had absolutely no desire to be with them sexually. Of course, being the polite guy, I would just politely deflect their advances.

Now, why do assholes/douchebags/bitches never get caught in the friend-zone. While I was a nice person in my youth, I have since turned into sort of an elitist, selfish, and volatile asshole. So, I'm going to plug in the above scenario with an asshole.

1. Asshole A has feeling for person B.
2. Person B doesn't feel that way about Asshole A, but still wants to be friends.
3. Asshole A, being interested in only his own desires, doesn't pursue the friendship.

OR

1. Person A has feelings for Asshole B.
2. Asshole B doesn't feel that way about person A and tells them so in a very direct manner.
3. Person A realized Asshole B is, in fact, an asshole and doesn't pursue the friendship.

See? No friend-zones are created when there's an asshole involved. It's like a recipe. You need 2 nice people to make a friend-zone. Without both parties being nice, it'd be like making fire in a vacuum.

 

[Vault101]

I don't really see how the friend-zone implies that women aren't autonomous. First, I've always heard and used the phrase of someone "being put" in the friend-zone. That implies to me the act of some autonomous other.

its because often they completly forget that women actually have their own wants/prefernces in the situation....instead they treat her like some kind of dating sim or romance subplot...that theONLY reason she isnt going out with you is because she's eather a ***** or you clearly didnt pick the right dialouge options and choose the correct paths so therefore you are freindzoned

again shes not a person, she's a mathmatical equasion or game

 

[Legendairy314]

Urgh, another friend zone topic. All right, I'll bite.

Specifically, I'll share the situation I've been in that's been bugging me on and off for days.

-Friends for years
-Develop crush over friend
-Confesses feeling to friend but denied
-Still hangs out w/ friend but feelings still somewhat there

What do I do with that?! Awesome person that I can't help but want to hang out with yet every time I see them I'm reminded that I've been rejected. Every time I laugh or look at said person it hurts and there's nothing I can do about it. The only saving grace is that we'll hopefully be moving our own separate ways within the next few months. Then I should be able to put some emotional distance and get over feelings that are still going strong for almost a year.

 

[Daveman]

I've recently come to the conclusion that the friendzone is bullshit. It gives the idea that if you had asked her out from the get go you wouldn't be where you are now, for some reason assuming she fancied you initially but then goes off you once she discovers all that stuff you have in common and your similar sense of humour etc. It's retarded, I used to be retarded and believe it myself so don't beat yourself up about it if you currently believe, you'll get smarter with age.

I've actually been racking my brain lately because I'm really attracted to one of my friends. But no matter what mental tactics I try, I can't seem to shake said feelings. Whats worse is that its not just affection, it's resulted in pointless jealousy, self-loathing and anxiety. I don't buy into the whole "friendzone" thing though, I think the best couples almost always start out as friends.

Very true. I recently felt similar about one of my friends, but then I thought there's no reason to be guilty about it, she's beauti-awesome, how could I feel any other way? So I decided I'd just keep up the flirtatious behaviour I love to do around her regardless. Give up trying to shake the feelings. Just realise that, just like with all relationship conquests, it might not work out.

Urgh, another friend zone topic. All right, I'll bite.

Specifically, I'll share the situation I've been in that's been bugging me on and off for days.

-Friends for years
-Develop crush over friend
-Confesses feeling to friend but denied
-Still hangs out w/ friend but feelings still somewhat there

What do I do with that?! Awesome person that I can't help but want to hang out with yet every time I see them I'm reminded that I've been rejected. Every time I laugh or look at said person it hurts and there's nothing I can do about it. The only saving grace is that we'll hopefully be moving our own separate ways within the next few months. Then I should be able to put some emotional distance and get over feelings that are still going strong for almost a year.

Again, I'd say don't worry about it, it's hard to do that but ultimately you're beating yourself up over very little. It's impossible to go from having feelings for someone to not. I've never stopped fancying girls ever, even after being rejected, and distance or time apart never really helps either. Just know that it's perfectly ok to fancy your friends. Girls find this weird because they're not biologically programmed to hump everything with a face, but really, it's ok.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Their should never be a friendzone. If you are friends with a girl fine. If you are friends with a girl and you want to rail the living shit out of her, fine. If you are friends with a girl and you want to date said girl, not fine. Ask her out/confess attraction whatever you gotta do, and then if she rejects you outright, leave. Never talk to her again.

I just saved everyone a lot of bullshit.

And just throw away whatever friendship you've had, even if it might have been years? Not fine.

All this talk about the "friendzone" being some misogynistic revenge fantasy made up by rejected man-children... how much of this is based on things written on the internet, and how much on things you've heard and know of in the outside world?

1. People need to grow a pair and ask said person of desire out.
2. If he/she says no, then move on, grow up and realise that not all people want to shag you.

And some people need to realize that moving on is not something you can just do right away. If they can just forget about someone in an instant, they likely didn't have feelings for said person in the first place. If human beings could just flick a switch to destroy certain feelings within them, we would live in an utopia. But sadly we can't, ergo we have grudges and bitterness that take years to overcome. It's always easier to try to just forget the whole thing and/or suppress it rather than actually try to deal with it.

This is a strange thread.

 

[BringBackBuck]

At the same time, if you're in your teens or twenties there's a good chance you'll be attracted to said friend at some level.

Why the age specification OP? I'm in my 30's with lots of female friends, some of whom I would love to plow till next july.

 

[theparsonski]

Okay, so I know that a lot of people use the friend-zone as a shield to protect themselves from blame, or simply from facing up to the fact that they just aren't the right type of guy for their friends, but I believe there is a friendzone. It's a lot smaller and more specific than many people claim, but it's still there, and it's still a thing.

My own experience of liking a girl who was my close friend ended in her essentially saying that she wasn't into me in that way but she didn't want anything to change in our friendship - hell, if anything we only grew closer as a result of me telling her.

However, she said to my other closest mate that if she wasn't such good friends with me, she could actually see something having happened between us. She just doesn't really believe that relationships with close friends work. That is being friendzoned, in my opinion. When the only thing that is getting in the way of a potential relationship is the closeness of your friendship.

Just my opinion; feel free to disagree.

 

[Doclector]

Logically speaking, allowing that feeling to exist is hazardous to my wellbeing.

let's just say for a moment that I'm not completely retarded and socially bankrupt, and I hit on a girl at a club. It fails, as usual, as always, but if nobody who would mock me witnesses it, there is no ongoing effect if I do not let there be one.

If I become friends with a girl and become attracted to her, it's socially unnacceptable to pretend we never met if I asked her out and failed. It's simply not done, for partially good reason, from her point of view, that's just crappy manners.

But if I stick around, I have to endure it. I have to remind myself why it's hopeless to try. I have to remind myself that I'm a piece of shit who nobody would ever be attracted to in order for things to not fall apart.

Every. Single. Time. we meet.

Thus the only logical option is to completely destroy said feelings. Not allow them to develop. That is far easier than controlling them. Allowing them to develop has no likely positive outcomes, only negative ones.

Ever considered that it's your self-loathing that makes you unattractive to women? There's no social grace required when you say "Would you like to go out to dinner with me?" to a friend. If she says no, you can say "I was being friendly". If she says yes, then you already know how to interact with her at the restaurant, it's a lot easier to end up dating her.

Well, I don't usually tell anyone I know unless I'm really depressed. I know, people can see it, but what am I supposed to do, lie to myself? Convince myself I'm not ugly, that I have some form of charm, that I have something that anyone else would want?

And they always know. They know the body language that's a complete fucking mystery to someone like me. They always know and they always talk about it when someone fails to attract someone. I've heard them talk about other, better people that way, so I know they'll be fucking laughing about me. No, if I fail, I have to leave that group of friends forever, because from that point on, all I am is a joke.

And don't go saying they're not real friends. That may be true, but I've never seen anyone who doesn't do this. I'll take at least a little company over complete isolation.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

*snip*

*snip*

Hehe.

I think you're a bit over-analyzing this, considering it's just modern slang for "person doesn't want to be more than friends". No need to wax poetic about these perceived psychological implications,

especially since all supposed implications are entirely circumstantial.

NGOKC [https://sites.google.com/site/niceguysofokc/]

After a while, you begin to recognize the pathology.

Ew. Just ew. So much reaching. Comes off horribly, and I'm generally someone who enjoys calling folks out on hypocritical bullshit. The homophobia? Sure. Racist jokes? Totally depends. Shaved legs? That's an aesthetic preference, and maybe the guy is all about shaving himself, too. Preferring to date someone of your own race/background - we're punishing men for who does and does not give them a boner now?

What ALL of these ideas and theories fail to mention is that every person and every relationship is unique. There might be similarities here or there, but you can't throw a blanket over the term "nice guy", or "friend-zone", etc. without invariably missing something.

I will tell you what I do hate: the idea that anyone is perfect. And I don't just mean physically or financially - I mean mentally. Folks have issues. Some guys are very supportive, very sweet, very generous, and very jealous. Some guys are both incredible friends and ridiculous hornballs. Some guys are confident and independent and secure but withholding and miserly. Same goes for gals, all points. So when I see a site that's railing on guys for claiming they are "nice", only to list a bunch of stuff that qualifies as "not nice" on a purely subjective level (like it or not), it comes off... bleh.

Don't get me wrong, there is often something to the "nice guys are delusional" phenomena that has risen up to combat the "girls only date assholes" nonsense. But that's precisely my point: both theories are sometimes true and sometimes not. Such is the case with almost every sweeping theory about male/female interaction. So what value do any of them really have other than categorization after the fact? And how would you ever hope to eject subjectivity from such evaluations?

Also, I've used the term friend-zone more than a few times in reference to a situation where I had feelings for a girl who did not return them. At no point did I view her as being responsible for what happened between us. I've always taken responsibility for my feelings. That's probably when I always phrase it as "in the friend zone" as opposed to "she friend-zoned me". It's a natural phenomena to me, something that just happens when random chance decides that two people should meet and hit it off but only one of them wants something more.

Edit: btw, reading that blog further, there's some decent cognitive dissonance going on. On the one hand, people are lambasted for answering "yes" to the question "should a woman be required to shave her legs" (when I think it's a fair bet that a number of the respondents mean to say "I prefer shaved legs"). On the other hand, people are similarly trashed for answering "yes" to the question "can someone have had too many sex partners" (where an equally literal approach obviously allows for some very legitimate ideas about "too many" - for instance, several thousand).

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The Friend Zone should only refer to a 2km wide area that runs the entire length of the US-Canada border.

 

[TJC]

I'm sick of you guys complaining about this 'friendzone'. If you are not a suitable mate, then go and man up.

I'm also sick of these friendzone threads. There are already many of them on the database of the Escapist. Also, please see my response above.

You...quoted yourself agreeing with yourself. wat?

I'm more curious whether this obvious and sad ego boost causes a notification in his own inbox. A mystery that could easily be solved by directly asking but I'm somehow not exactly burning with desire to engage with said individual.

NGOKC [https://sites.google.com/site/niceguysofokc/]

After a while, you begin to recognize the pathology.

AHAHAHAA, this site is hilarious. At times I'm wondering whether it's only some of the dumbass questions that makes guys look like Nice Guys? (I mean, I don't think women should be obligated to shave their legs but I do like it :C ) but then you find these golden moments of their own rants and questions that are obviously homophobic and shit and it's just pure hilarity. In any case, thanks for giving me another plump fruit of procrastination here.

 

[Nickolai77]

At its core, the friendzone is simply a more modern variant of unrequited love- where the romantic feelings held by one friend are "not reciprocated or returned in kind" by the other. Both males and females can be friendzoned. I've been friendzoned more times than i care to count, but i've also friendzoned girls in the past as well. The reason why it tends to be guys who get friendzoned is because guys are a lot more easy-going in falling into romantic relationships with female friends, hence it's a generally lot easier for a girl to turn a friendship with a guy to a relationship than the other way round.

I think there's also a lot of unfair criticism said against "nice guys" who fall into the friendzone. It's something that i went through and looking back to when i was a young teenager i can't blame myself for it. Societal expectations are that guys should make the first move in initiating a relationship, which is a far more complicated and difficult process than simply "asking a girl out". Things like flirting as well don't come naturally to many people either, so its difficult to make your intentions known, or subtly investigate if your feelings are are shared or not. It's not hard to see how many guys remain just friends with girls they fancy. It's all part of climbing an emotionally difficult learning curve in understanding romance.

You can interpret this to be sexist and misogynist because "nice guys" believe that by simply being nice to a girl they deserve to get into a relationship with her. But what else can teenagers, who aren't exceptionally attractive or confident do? Not develop those romantic feelings in the first place? Attempt flirting? Get rejected in asking them out and break all contact with them? In the end, you're just nice to them because that's the only thing you can do- and fundamentally, you love them as a person, so being nice to them comes naturally.

It's fair to criticise how some "nice guys" emotionally respond to the fallout of such an experience. It is wrong of them to expect they deserve a relationship for being nice, or think that girls are only attracted to assholes- but to me the frustration is certainly understandable. By all means explain why their wrong in thinking those things, but don't shout them down for being "nice guys". It's like shouting down a toddler trying to learn to walk. Given the way men and women are, and the way society expects them to behave, there's inevitably going to be a lot of disappointed young "nice guys."

 

[Dusty Fred]

At the same time, if you're in your teens or twenties there's a good chance you'll be attracted to said friend at some level.

Why the age specification OP? I'm in my 30's with lots of female friends, some of whom I would love to plow till next july.

I didn't mean to exclude anyone, but I didn't want to generalise either. I'm 25 so I felt reasonably confident that I could speak for people my age. The fourth decade is uncharted territory for me, so I didn't want to stray beyond what I could speak from experience on. That's all.
I'm open to any and all input, regardless of age, gender, outlook or species!

 

[Gunjester]

Arguments for the Friendzone would be that they're not attracted but they "love" her and that's why it hurts so much. I'm slower to believe that because I feel like common society has no f*cking idea what love actually is, but hey, if they're true about it that does suck.

I myself thoguht I was in the friendzone with a girl I hadn't hit on, I'd given up before I'd tried. However, last summer I had resolved to be more confident and blunt from now on and then I told her how I had felt for the last four years. We've been dating for almost six months now, going pretty well.

 

[gazumped]

'Friend-zone' makes no sense to me because I cannot understand why being friends would hurt romantic prospects.

I understand I may be in the minority here, but if I'm not interested in someone, it's because we're not good enough friends. The closer we are, the more attractive I find them, because it shows that we're compatible. It actually makes having platonic best friends tricky for me but nonetheless, it makes the term 'friend-zone' completely meaningless for me.

And I'm sure I can't be the only person who thinks like this. If someone doesn't think of you as a romantic partner it's not because they think of you as a friend... the two things are in no way mutually exclusive.

 

[Entitled]

The concept of friendzoning is found in both genders :S why is it when it's discussed male this and insecure boys that are always mentioned?

Not equally, no. The vast proportion of people complaining about the friendzone are male. While I would agree that some women use the term, they are a very small minority. And they too are being immature when they do that.

I think it's more common with men simply because women are more culturally expected to repress their sexuality.

Just like when you see a youtube video with a man and a woman in it, and all comments are about how hot the woman is, but there are none about the man.

It's the same deal with friends. Men usually feel more comfortable openly exclaiming how attractive they find any of their female friends, and how they would be intersted in a relationhip with them if possible. Meanwhile, women are more guilt-tripped into acting all chaste and asexual, so they are more likely to deny that they might possibly look at anyone else that way.

Then again, some members of both genders subvert these norms. But whether or not the word "friendzone" is actually used to describe this by either of them, is mostly just coinciential.

 

[thesilentman]

I have never understood this whole friend-zone deal. It's perfectly fine to be friends and not be attracted, and also the inverse. I repeat, THERE IS NO ISSUE WITH THIS. If you're attracted to a friend of the opposite (or same, depending on your preference) gender, it is not the end of the world.

Now if someone can explain to me why this is an issue, I'll be greatly appreciated.