Funny events in anti-woke world

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
I feel like the big problem with liberal democracy is that it's built on the assumption that everyone outside the "political class" is incapable of political agency and doesn't need any kind of political education.
What sort of liberal democracy are we talking about here? I would argue the core of a healthy liberal democracy is the opposite: a politically engaged and invested populace with a decent understanding of politics, who understand perfectly well that their political agency extends beyond popping into a voting booth every few years. The subordination of the political class to limited special interests (especially the rich and businesses) is in large part due to reduced sense of political agency amongst the population: something neither left nor - especially more recently - right appear to be happy with, and is the sign of an unhealthy liberal democracy.

A lot of people know there is something wrong with the world they live in, they know that somewhere they are being screwed over, but without any political education they cannot accurately diagnose what the problem is or who is responsible. I don't think most of the Trumpian right-wingers understand that the problem of business elites is economic and political inequality.
I agree. But I think what's going on here is that a properly functioning liberal democracy probably wouldn't have got to this point. It's not convenient for lots of powerful groups in a democracy to let the people really have their say, and I would argue that what we are looking at is the very deliberate attempt to suppress political thought and political activism in the populace, because they do not want the business of government properly scrutinised by the citizenry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kwak

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
Go fuck yourself, Paul. If you were true to that Randian horsecrap you keep vomiting, you wouldn't even bring up the subject. Suddenly socialism isn't so bad when your votes are on the line, eh? You, that con artist Ken Ham, and McConnell have been nothing but blights on a state that deserves far better.
I think relief has to be given on the principle that a common good is a common good irrespective of circumstances. But I also sometimes wonder whether declaring "Your elected official has repeatedly attempted to prevent relief for everywhere else, so with respect to his opinion we're not giving you any" might make for a pointed message.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,332
6,838
118
Country
United States
Rand's supporters already lean towards the "federal government is useless" stance, that would backfire pretty spectacularly. A quick, organized, *effective* government response would kneecap the Kentucky GOP though.

That said, if Rand votes against the next disaster relief bill, I say we spring his neighbor
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gergar12

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
Would it though?

They'd just apply the same logic they do elsewhere; We deserved the aid, other people don't.
There's similar hogwash around pork-barrel politics. For instance, a Kentucky Representative, Hal Rogers, spent a long time frenetically directing vast amounts of Federal money to his constituency (and worse than that, it seems often to interests connected to his family and friends). It doesn't appear to have remotely dented his popularity. One can note Ayn Rand's attitude to social security: far from refusing receiving welfare on principle, the rationale was that the government took her money in taxes, so she was morally entitled to take it back by whatever means available. And so for any government spending: rather than smash sordid pots of dosh, the aim becomes instead to claim as much as possible from them.
 

The Rogue Wolf

Stealthy Carnivore
Legacy
Nov 25, 2007
16,346
8,846
118
Stalking the Digital Tundra
Gender
✅
For instance, a Kentucky Representative, Hal Rogers, spent a long time frenetically directing vast amounts of Federal money to his constituency (and worse than that, it seems often to interests connected to his family and friends). It doesn't appear to have remotely dented his popularity.
Well, duh. His constituents figured that they're real Americans, not like the rest of us, so of course they deserve to suck on the government tit. You get that sort of mindset a lot amongst the "kick the welfare queens off the dole" crowd.
 

AnxietyProne

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2021
510
374
68
Country
United States
Biden says all men and women are equal under the Declaration of Independence
Conservatives lose their shit.


unforgivingparrot
9 December, 2021
Maybe make your own inclusive memorable speech rather than altering history

marb
9 December, 2021
The Declaration says that all men are created equal. I am a woman and I've NEVER felt use of the word 'men' in that document excluded me. I've always considered the word 'men' in The Declaration to mean ALL human beings. If politicians today start adding now what they think our founders should have back then, Thomas Jefferson would have gotten writers cramp! Leave our Declaration of Independence alone, Biden! You want to fix something? Fix your border mess, your energy mess, your inflation mess, your crime mess...there's much more but I'm getting writer's cramp.

brucetgray
9 December, 2021
A woman athlete is not equal to a man-woman athlete.

LastConservativeStanding
9 December, 2021
Hey Biden- both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are sacred documents and need not include your embellishments/ lies. I suppose your next story will be how you helped Paul Revere warn about the British and later helped Jefferson write the documents.

jsr0008
9 December, 2021
"as he discussed the importance of American ideals." M☭rxism is not an American ideal.

Bcrowe
9 December, 2021
Joe Biden should use the would “woman” when speaking about Pete Buttigieg.

liberty13
9 December, 2021
if only we could leave them out of everything but the bedroom and the kitchen ....
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
marb
9 December, 2021
The Declaration says that all men are created equal. I am a woman and I've NEVER felt use of the word 'men' in that document excluded me. I've always considered the word 'men' in The Declaration to mean ALL human beings. If politicians today start adding now what they think our founders should have back then, Thomas Jefferson would have gotten writers cramp! Leave our Declaration of Independence alone, Biden! You want to fix something? Fix your border mess, your energy mess, your inflation mess, your crime mess...there's much more but I'm getting writer's cramp.
I love these sorts of replies because it's conservatives accidentally telling on themselves as selfish, solipsistic, out of touch and completely ignorant of history. Essentially, this woman just typed out, "I'm a bad person."

I'm not going to address the gross homo/transphobia in the other replies, but they do make the same point of showing that extremist conservatives are fundamentally bad people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

AnxietyProne

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2021
510
374
68
Country
United States
The fact they even consider it worth commenting on shows just how fragile rightoid snowflakes really are. And how much the right-wing media outlets are a propaganda cartel.
B...b...but the Left are WOOOOOOOOORSE, so that makes it okay!

Sorry, channeling Dwarvenhobble there for a moment.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,702
2,883
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Hell no but it's Fox New, you expect something else?
I think the biggest crime is that tree apparently being worth half a million dollars. For reference, the big one in seen in most movies for decades cost $73K

Either someone is being significantly ripped off or some is doing an insurance scam (or likely, Doocy pulled a number out of his ass.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister Mumbler

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,702
2,883
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
He's just following in the footsteps of his idol Ayn Rand, who had no problem accepting Social Security but wanted it eliminated. Hypocrisy is built-in to his worldview.
Most Capitalists only what real Capitalism to happen to other industries. But theirs is special and needs tax incentives and grants

Or Communist, who are meant to be anti-hierarcical... lead to the Soviet union
 

Fallen Soldier

Brother Lombax
Oct 28, 2021
518
516
98
Country
United States
I have half my family in Kentucky. I've been making phone calls and emails all day making sure they're okay (they are. The worst was some minor storm damage on one of my aunt's house).

And what else do I see? That fucking worm, Rand "GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE that Sandy money"" Paul, a man who MOCKED people who wanted aid for natural disaster repair, is suddenly crying for Federal Aid for KY.


Go fuck yourself, Paul. If you were true to that Randian horsecrap you keep vomiting, you wouldn't even bring up the subject. Suddenly socialism isn't so bad when your votes are on the line, eh? You, that con artist Ken Ham, and McConnell have been nothing but blights on a state that deserves far better.
He’s up for re-election next year. While I doubt he would lose even if he were to be against federal aid. The optics wouldn’t look good on his part if he did.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,912
1,777
118
Country
United Kingdom
What sort of liberal democracy are we talking about here? I would argue the core of a healthy liberal democracy is the opposite: a politically engaged and invested populace with a decent understanding of politics, who understand perfectly well that their political agency extends beyond popping into a voting booth every few years.
I think that would be the core of any healthy democracy.

The problem with liberal democracy (and in particular the kind of neoliberal democracy in the US) is that there's a giant elephant in the room which noone is supposed to notice or talk about, and that elephant is capitalism. Capitalism creates material inequality, but it also needs people not to ask too many questions about why there is material inequality. So what you end up with is a class system, and I mean that in the (extremely British) sense of cultural classes rather than classes that are merely material.

The kind of people who end up suckered in by people like Trump aren't just politically uneducated, they don't want to be politically educated. They have (correctly) absorbed the idea that political education is not for people like them, and they've learned to take pride in being that kind of person because what else do they have? These are the kind of people who get irrationally angry about people doing "useless" degrees, because the ideology of (neoliberal) capitalism is that you should become more and more technically specialized. It is your job to accommodate yourself to the economic system you live in by becoming a better worker, and any difficulty you face in life is entirely due to your failure to do that. These are people who spent their lives trying to do that, and are proud of it.

That is why I don't think those people are capable of understanding what is screwing them over or why. They've staked their lives and their identities on their ability to accommodate themselves to capitalism, and now need to make the leap to understanding that it was all a lie and they were never going to be rewarded for that. Meanwhile, you've got Trump, who is basically a poor person's fantasy idea of what a rich person is like, telling them that he understands them and is on their side and wants to help them and he's totally going to fight all the bad people (the elites, those weird overeducated people who have achieved ascendency and/or comfort within the system despite not perfectly accommodating themselves to capitalism) for them. I don't think it's weird that people fall for that.

I think what's going on here is that a properly functioning liberal democracy probably wouldn't have got to this point. It's not convenient for lots of powerful groups in a democracy to let the people really have their say, and I would argue that what we are looking at is the very deliberate attempt to suppress political thought and political activism in the populace, because they do not want the business of government properly scrutinised by the citizenry.
So, weird rabbit holes aside, I agree but I also don't think there's a clear line between what is deliberate in this case and what is just a feature of the way the social and political system is laid out. Part of that social system is that everyone does learn to identify themselves within interest groups based on how well they are doing within the current system. When you have people who are doing very well under the current system, and when the system is inherently competitive, it makes sense that those people are going to want to pull up the ladders up behind them, not just economically but also culturally.
 
Last edited:

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
I think that would be the core of any healthy democracy.

The problem with liberal democracy (and in particular the kind of neoliberal democracy in the US) is that there's a giant elephant in the room which noone is supposed to notice or talk about, and that elephant is capitalism. Capitalism creates material inequality, but it also needs people not to ask too many questions about why there is material inequality. So what you end up with is a class system, and I mean that in the (extremely British) sense of cultural classes rather than classes that are merely material.
One can say that, but neoliberalism is a relatively new thing. Societies were both capitalist and liberal democracies for much, much longer and we can hardly say that the population as a whole were unaware of class and inequality whilst vigorous left-wing parties existed very explicitly campaigning on them. And for decades postwar, our societies delivered vastly more for the population as a whole, with wealth gains well distributed across the population. It was only with Reagan and Thatcher era where the distribution of national gains started to be swallowed so heavily by the already rich - and even then mostly only the USA with heavy income stagnation at the median and sub-median.

I don't particularly disagree, however, that there's are demographics who have no will, or to an extent even ability, to seriously think outside the existing economic box.

So, weird rabbit holes aside, I agree but I also don't think there's a clear line between what is deliberate in this case and what is just a feature of the way the social and political system is laid out. Part of that social system is that everyone does learn to identify themselves within interest groups based on how well they are doing within the current system. When you have people who are doing very well under the current system, and when the system is inherently competitive, it makes sense that those people are going to want to pull up the ladders up behind them, not just economically but also culturally.
Although I agree the natural inclination is to "pull the ladders up behind them", I think amongst the major movers and players - politicians, right-wing media and hyper-rich activists - there is awareness of what they are doing.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,306
3,120
118
Country
United States of America
And for decades postwar, our societies delivered vastly more for the population as a whole, with wealth gains well distributed across the population.
It was a fool's bargain destined to ruin, as the price was the dismantling of the very movements that scared capital into making this possible.