Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Chimpzy said:
Oh, Edmure Tully was also there, still alive and all. Head of a Great House, but also a massive *****, so he gets told to sit his ass back down.
What's funny about this, and really only speaks to how awful D&D are as showrunners, is Edmure's claim was pretty accurate and he made a pretty strong case for taking the crown. The only thing invalidating that is "lol, Edmure's a pussy" fanservice.

If the North pressed for independence (and they did) the Riverlands would become the definitive strategic grounds of all Westeros. To a certain degree they already were, but Northern independence means the Riverlands sits on the border between two independent countries, and occupying all land routes (meaning trade) between the two. Plus, the sole remaining heir to the Frey's lands is Edmure's son, meaning the Tullys directly control one of the two major thoroughfares between the North and South.

Not to mention, Edmure has blood relation to Sansa which would make him a key strategic and diplomatic player in relations between North and South. And -- the important piece -- remember hostageship is not necessarily shameful in and of itself, and any shame that would be a consequence of it would fall to the now-defunct Freys for having violated guest right. Hostageship was an important part of diplomacy and negotiation, and to be held hostage (as opposed to captive) imparted a certain sense of goodwill towards hostage and "captor"; the Lannisters would have been viewed as having liberated Edmure from captivity, and Edmure would be obliged to them.

In other words, relations between the Lannisters, Riverlands, and North could be normalized immediately, and within a generation a marriage between Edmure's son and a Lannister daughter would have elevated that relationship to a formal alliance. Which would have been absolutely key to the North's strategic situation vis-a-vis the Ironborn: an independent North means a North that can be reaved relatively free of consequence, absent a Lannister fleet or intervention from the Redwyne Navy.

And, since the North pressed for independence and that claim was honored, a Stark king all but guarantees Dornish and Ironborn claims for independence sooner or later (probably sooner), especially since both involved Great Houses pledged themselves to Dany. Better to allow them to secede peacefully, and lean into strengthening relations between the remaining kingdoms; an arranged marriage between Gendry's and Bronn's heirs, means a marriage between a Baratheon-Bronn heir and Tully-Lannister heir unifies all remaining kingdoms and Houses at once, since Tully, Arryn, and Stark are all already allied by blood and marriage.

Assuming Bronn can press his claim to the Reach and hold it against an inevitable Redwyne rebellion.

But, back to Edmure. The only people who knew he fucked up at Stone Mill died in the War of Five Kings. To everyone else, it was a major victory against one of the most fearsome and reviled landed knights of the realm. As far as surrendering Riverrun, it was clear Brynden had lost and was refusing to capitulate beyond reason; the rest was simple negotiation and obligation, which reflects no particular shame on Edmure himself. The two people that know the truth behind it are Edmure himself, and Jaime who is dead.

Putting Edmure on the throne was actually the smartest move, politically, for the long-term stability of the realm. Sansa was, once again, a bona fide idiot for not even considering it. Or rather, D&D are bona fide idiots for expecting their audience to chortle like hyenas, not even recognizing for themselves the implications of their own "comedic relief".

Certainly smarter than an ascension that reeks of the same nepotism that caused the war in the first place, that all but ensures an even bigger, deadlier war shortly thereafter.
 

McElroy

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What I'm most excited about is Brienne's writing scene. I want it to be meme'd to the ground with her writing two hundred pages of Sonic fanfics or describing Jaime's looks (and looks) and intimately about their night together. And so on.
 

Hades

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Chimpzy said:
Ok. It's over. The finale was ... ok-ish? I guess? Everybody who's still alive pretty much gets their happy ending (cept Edmure. LOL). I felt it was kind of boring, but that might just be in juxtaposition to the more high octane episodes that preceded it. The ending was likely to disappoint whichever way they took things, so whatever, it's fine. But let's nitpick anyway, because it's fun and it seems to be the thing to do.


Oh, Edmure Tully was also there, still alive and all. Head of a Great House, but also a massive *****, so he gets told to sit his ass back down.
Poor Edmure. The show really has been needlesly cruel to him. He's not particularly competent in the books but that's because he's a kindhearted man of peace. Here he's just an inept jerk who's wrong 100% of the time. Even Edmure's acomplishments end up twisted and put in the worst light possible.

I don't really see the reason for it. I didn't agree with Stannis portrayal but there were thematic reasons for making him a bit of a villain, but I don't see the narrative benifits in making Edmure a loser.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Sonmi said:
Dreiko said:
So, now that this is over apparently, should one read the books or watch the show? I was waiting until either the last book or last tv episode had come out before deciding to get into this.

I know some people are angry that the blond girl went crazy or something because the tv series diverges from the book with regards to darkness and characterization but somehow retains the same ending as the book but I wonder if that's alleviated if you just read the book.
Don't watch past season 4.
Season 4 had the utter cheese fest that was Karl Tanner.

And the disappointing resolution of Yara saving Theon from Ramsey.

And Tywin seemed to take lightly that his daughter was fucking his son and making incest babies.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Thaluikhain said:
Apparently a few plastic water bottles are visible in one scene, and people are annoyed.
Well I think its because of the coffee cup, Jaime's returned hand, forgetting to animate Dany on Drogon, and now the water bottles...
It makes you feel like they just rushed this season, not really caring about the details.
 

Thaluikhain

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Silentpony said:
Thaluikhain said:
Apparently a few plastic water bottles are visible in one scene, and people are annoyed.
Well I think its because of the coffee cup, Jaime's returned hand, forgetting to animate Dany on Drogon, and now the water bottles...
It makes you feel like they just rushed this season, not really caring about the details.
Oh sure, I get that. Of course, I've never been a fan, and I've found it annoying how people keep going on about how awesome it is, so the whole "they just didn't care thing" isn't personally annoying. I do dislike unprofessional behaviour in zillion dollar productions, though.

Also: https://chaser.com.au/general-news/jk_rowling_announces_jon_snow_is_gay/?fbclid=IwAR1P__dNSwnUWg_X6BjN5ZVso6QmGt-qcwxWQZNX4h19-YG50Jxfc1Jfymk
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Thaluikhain said:
Silentpony said:
Thaluikhain said:
Apparently a few plastic water bottles are visible in one scene, and people are annoyed.
Well I think its because of the coffee cup, Jaime's returned hand, forgetting to animate Dany on Drogon, and now the water bottles...
It makes you feel like they just rushed this season, not really caring about the details.
Oh sure, I get that. Of course, I've never been a fan, and I've found it annoying how people keep going on about how awesome it is, so the whole "they just didn't care thing" isn't personally annoying. I do dislike unprofessional behaviour in zillion dollar productions, though.

Also: https://chaser.com.au/general-news/jk_rowling_announces_jon_snow_is_gay/?fbclid=IwAR1P__dNSwnUWg_X6BjN5ZVso6QmGt-qcwxWQZNX4h19-YG50Jxfc1Jfymk
I was never a huge fan either, just kinda got roped into it when a watch night emerged among my friends. I think its less unprofessionalism on the editors part and more the producers/writers were just so cannot be assed that no one else was allowed to give a rats ass either.

Editor 1: Should we go over the episode one more time? Just make sure we didn't miss anything?
Editor 2: Its nearly 9am and the bosses are already out to lunch. Who cares anymore?!
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Gotta admit, kinda digging the "Where's Wally" meta-game where instead of Wally, we get modern day beverage containers to discover. It's...experimental.

[tweet t=https://twitter.com/bethisloco/status/1130341245170020353]

 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Silentpony said:
Editor 2: Its nearly 9am and the bosses are already out to lunch. Who cares anymore?!
Well according to at least one episode's DVD commentary, it wasn't so much they were out to lunch as it was hanging out in the green room being #MeToo allegations that have yet to surface...
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Eacaraxe said:
What's funny about this, and really only speaks to how awful D&D are as showrunners, is Edmure's claim was pretty accurate and he made a pretty strong case for taking the crown. The only thing invalidating that is "lol, Edmure's a pussy" fanservice.

Certainly smarter than an ascension that reeks of the same nepotism that caused the war in the first place, that all but ensures an even bigger, deadlier war shortly thereafter.
If it was Book Edmure, I'd agree with you. But Show Edmure is an annoying ponce, so he can fuck off. Tho yeah, the outcome they chose in the show is pretty much guaranteed to cause more problems in the future. More wars. More pointless death. More misery.

Maybe that's the point? That it doesn't really matter who the big dogs are? That it doesn't change anything? The game of thrones will continue just as it always has.
 

Nielas

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Chimpzy said:
Eacaraxe said:
What's funny about this, and really only speaks to how awful D&D are as showrunners, is Edmure's claim was pretty accurate and he made a pretty strong case for taking the crown. The only thing invalidating that is "lol, Edmure's a pussy" fanservice.

Certainly smarter than an ascension that reeks of the same nepotism that caused the war in the first place, that all but ensures an even bigger, deadlier war shortly thereafter.
If it was Book Edmure, I'd agree with you. But Show Edmure is an annoying ponce, so he can fuck off. Tho yeah, the outcome they chose in the show is pretty much guaranteed to cause more problems in the future. More wars. More pointless death. More misery.

Maybe that's the point? That it doesn't really matter who the big dogs are? That it doesn't change anything? The game of thrones will continue just as it always has.
They resolved the issue for this generation. Everyone wants to rebuild and solidify their hold on power. With the North going its own way, the Vale is now the most powerful military and political entity left in the Six Kingdoms but they are too small to hold the Reach or Stormlands. A Stark ruling in King's Landing, even if just a figurehead, give the new regime legitimacy and keeps things stable long enough for the new regimes to solidify their hold. In a few generations the new Houses will grow powerful and ambitious enough that a new game of thrones will start.
 
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Neurotic Void Melody said:
Okay, Brienne, Davos and Gendry I recognise, but I have no clue who those other two dudes are supposed to be. Is the guy next to Gendry supposed to be another Baratheon bannerman, since the others are, one way or another, connected to that house? And the one on far right, that's not Ilyn Payne is it? I knew his actor was recovering from cancer, would be nice if they'd manage to get one last cameo in for him
 

Saelune

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Chimpzy said:
Ok, yeah, that council presiding over Tyrion's trial and subsequent choosing of a king. Not sure why Brienne, Sam, Davos and Arya are on it since none of them have much in the way of actual political clout. No lands, or wealth, or the all important armies. Early seasons made a point of it that titles mean nothing without the power to back them up, so I'm assuming they're there because they're surviving named characters.
Sam is the head of House Tarly now. They sort of gloss over that though. Davos has been the right-hand of Stannis AND Jon. He very much deserves to be there. Plus this was a war trial council, they did not gather expecting to decide on the next king, it was to decide Jon and Tyrion's fates. That is also likely why Brienne the Knight and heir of a notable house (Tarth) and Arya, who remember, IS a noble too, and The Hero of Westeros.

Eacaraxe said:
Not to mention, Edmure has blood relation to Sansa which would make him a key strategic and diplomatic player in relations between North and South.
Her brother, a full Stark is made King but 'muh independence!', why the fuck would she care about some whipped Tully uncle?
 

Saelune

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CM156 said:
Saelune said:
CM156 said:
Saelune said:
CM156 said:
Saelune said:
CM156 said:
Eacaraxe said:
CM156 said:
My question is the same. For what purpose? The wildlings are severely reduced in number and likely won't be a problem in future. And the White Walkers are all dead. There doesn't seem to be much of a purpose in having a wall, let alone people to watch it.
I think the point was, Grey Worm didn't know that. The dumb ball-less bastard drug Tyrion out before a council of his own countrymen for a trial when his own outnumbered forces now occupied the least defensible and most treacherous position in Westeros, knowing full well how trying him works out for the accused. He literally stood there and let Tyrion talk his way into picking his own judge and jury, then stood there looking like somebody cut his cock off all over again when it didn't go his way.

Grey Worm is lucky he, the Unsullied, and the twelve remaining Dothraki were allowed to part Westeros, in peace, as free men. You know, only for Grey Worm to order sailing straight for Plague Island. Is it that much of a stretch they conned Grey Worm into believing that giving Jon everything he actually wanted, was a punishment?

I mean, the only thing keeping Westeros from another, bigger, even bloodier civil war at this point is Bran's Tree-Leto powers. He granted his family's domain independence to be ruled by his sister, but not Dorne or the Iron Islands which actually have standing armies and navies at this point, and appointed a lowborn sellsword Warden of the Reach. Not to mention naming the most hated man in Westeros Hand, and a disinherited noble of an eradicated House who is a deserter of both Night's Watch and Maester order, and a thief, Grand Maester. Bare minimum, Dorne's in a fantastic position to wage a war of independence and win, nothing stops the Ironborn from Reaving. Fucking. Everything., and the Reach is likely to rebel against Bronn to install one of their own as Warden.
It burns my brisket that Grey Worm got away with his war crimes without even something so minor as a slap on the wrist. At least he's taking the rest of his followers to an island where their skin will melt off due to toxic butterflies.

I wonder what will happen to the cities of slavers bay. After all, part of her enforcement of peace came from the fact that she threatened to return with her dragons. Now, two of those dragons are dead, and she's also gone. What's to stop them from re-instituting slavery?

At least Ghost was reunited with his master. Good boy.
Lots of people got away with their war crimes. Everyone likes to casually forget that Tormund slaughtered multiple villages of innocent people just to piss off The Night's Watch.
I've never forgiven him for that. And it's why I don't blame Olly and the others who despise specific wildlings. They have good cause.
Olly killed Jon, not Tormund. Fuck Olly.
Jon basically pardoned all the wildlings despite their reeving of the mostly defenseless peasants. Olly's stabbing was entirely predictable.
Predictable, but not justified. I don't hate Olly for killing Ygritte. I hate Olly for killing Jon. If he killed Tormund I also would not have faulted him.
I guess that's a fair way of looking at it, even if I can't fault him for stabbing Jon.
Absolutely can fault the kid who thinks that murdering the guy who wants to end racism and bring peace is the thing to do. I repeat, Fuck Olly. I don't fault revenge, I do fault taking your revenge out on the wrong people.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Eacaraxe said:
Silentpony said:
Editor 2: Its nearly 9am and the bosses are already out to lunch. Who cares anymore?!
Well according to at least one episode's DVD commentary, it wasn't so much they were out to lunch as it was hanging out in the green room being #MeToo allegations that have yet to surface...
wait seriously? Of all reasons to be lazy, sexually harassing the interns might be the most annoying.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Sonmi said:
Dreiko said:
So, now that this is over apparently, should one read the books or watch the show? I was waiting until either the last book or last tv episode had come out before deciding to get into this.

I know some people are angry that the blond girl went crazy or something because the tv series diverges from the book with regards to darkness and characterization but somehow retains the same ending as the book but I wonder if that's alleviated if you just read the book.
Don't watch past season 4.
Season 4 had the utter cheese fest that was Karl Tanner.

And the disappointing resolution of Yara saving Theon from Ramsey.
Fuck, those were already in season 4? I was going to comment earlier about taking issue with your claim that it all fell apart at season 4 (I would consider season 5 the definitive tipping point), but serves me right for not having watched the earlier seasons a second time. Looking back on it, Karl Tanner from fookin' Gin Alley and his Merry Band of Convicted Rapists was actually the first red light instead of a poorly written filler arc: cartoonish good guy vs bad guy antics, poorly written and doesn't fit in the world. It also didn't help that the show was still very much into the abundance of titties and rape it got criticized for.

Yara coming to rescue Theon also was an early indication of D&D's penchant for having characters just appear out of convenience. Oh God, the sings were there all along, even earlier than I could remember! WHY DIDN'T WE SEE IT COMING???
 

Nielas

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Saelune said:
Chimpzy said:
Ok, yeah, that council presiding over Tyrion's trial and subsequent choosing of a king. Not sure why Brienne, Sam, Davos and Arya are on it since none of them have much in the way of actual political clout. No lands, or wealth, or the all important armies. Early seasons made a point of it that titles mean nothing without the power to back them up, so I'm assuming they're there because they're surviving named characters.
Sam is the head of House Tarly now. They sort of gloss over that though. Davos has been the right-hand of Stannis AND Jon. He very much deserves to be there. Plus this was a war trial council, they did not gather expecting to decide on the next king, it was to decide Jon and Tyrion's fates. That is also likely why Brienne the Knight and heir of a notable house (Tarth) and Arya, who remember, IS a noble too, and The Hero of Westeros.

Eacaraxe said:
Not to mention, Edmure has blood relation to Sansa which would make him a key strategic and diplomatic player in relations between North and South.
Her brother, a full Stark is made King but 'muh independence!', why the fuck would she care about some whipped Tully uncle?
The only person who really matters at that meeting is Sansa. She has the military and political power to force a decision as long as it something that the others can stomach. Grey Worm only cares that Jon does not become king. The Vale lords would not accept a commoner on the throne but otherwise do not care. Everyone else is there just to rubber stamp the decision since they lack the power to really stop it but their consent is wanted to give the decision legitimacy.

Tyrion essentially gives Sansa what she wants. By making Bran the King in the South, Sansa can become the undisputed Queen in the North.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Nielas said:
They resolved the issue for this generation.
It really solved nothing. Dany's "coalition" was of the Reach, Dorne, and Iron Isles.

The Ironborn are bruised but still have the remnants of their Iron Fleet, and no counter-balance in the west least of all with the North and Westerlands spent. They're almost certain to start reaving again, and press for independence again.

The Dornish largely stayed out of the fighting, and can be assumed to have the largest standing army left. And, they're going to hold grudges and press their advantage for independence as well when they can't be countered.

The Tyrells and Tarlys were wiped out, sure. The Reach was also put under the wardenship of an illiterate, landless, and lowborn sellsword who has no money or bannermen, thanks to a backroom deal to the exclusion of the Reach's remaining nobility. That's important to note, considering the Redwynes seemingly managed to avoid most of the fighting, they're now the richest and most powerful House pledged to Highgarden, they have the strongest navy in Westeros, they're probably a little miffed about Olenna's death, and the strongest claimant to Highgarden by inheritance is...Paxter?

Realistically, Bronn would never hold the Reach, and throwing him under the bus to allow the Redwynes to take over is going to be a political necessity. Meanwhile, independence will have to be granted to Dorne and the Iron Islands, probably at immense cost to the remaining six districts (Crownlands, Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands, Riverlands, and Vale). All to prevent the same war from starting all over again, with the same belligerents, except this time around those in rebellion would hold decisive military and economic advantage.

Silentpony said:
wait seriously? Of all reasons to be lazy, sexually harassing the interns might be the most annoying.
It's the 4.03 commentary if I remember right, where Pedro Pascal mentioned the prostitute extras were hanging around the green room naked during holds in filming, and Weiss (I think) was in there pestering them and playing iPhone games.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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bartholen said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Sonmi said:
Dreiko said:
So, now that this is over apparently, should one read the books or watch the show? I was waiting until either the last book or last tv episode had come out before deciding to get into this.

I know some people are angry that the blond girl went crazy or something because the tv series diverges from the book with regards to darkness and characterization but somehow retains the same ending as the book but I wonder if that's alleviated if you just read the book.
Don't watch past season 4.
Season 4 had the utter cheese fest that was Karl Tanner.

And the disappointing resolution of Yara saving Theon from Ramsey.
Fuck, those were already in season 4? I was going to comment earlier about taking issue with your claim that it all fell apart at season 4 (I would consider season 5 the definitive tipping point), but serves me right for not having watched the earlier seasons a second time. Looking back on it, Karl Tanner from fookin' Gin Alley and his Merry Band of Convicted Rapists was actually the first red light instead of a poorly written filler arc: cartoonish good guy vs bad guy antics, poorly written and doesn't fit in the world. It also didn't help that the show was still very much into the abundance of titties and rape it got criticized for.

Yara coming to rescue Theon also was an early indication of D&D's penchant for having characters just appear out of convenience. Oh God, the sings were there all along, even earlier than I could remember! WHY DIDN'T WE SEE IT COMING???
Remember Jaime raping Cersei right next to Joffery's Corpse?

Or in my personal opinion, Cersei revealing to Tywin that she and Jaime are in a sexual relationship and Jaime is the father of the 3 children. That went no where because after that Tywin dies. But you think that revelation would be a bigger deal for Tywin?
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Maybe Martin hasn't finished working on those books yet cause he's too busy working on the next Dark Souls entry?

https://gematsu.com/2019/05/george-rr-martin-ive-consulted-on-a-video-game-out-of-japan


(yes, really)