Game of Thrones - I give up

[Owyn_Merrilin]

A little off topic, but this has been my problem with made for TV drama for the last ten years. I don't watch Game of Thrones (don't have HBO or Netflix, so there isn't much in the way of legal options for me to watch it), but man do I hate how grimdark and cynical everything got in American television after 9/11. I don't know about everyone else, but I was getting enough "terrible people doing terrible things" from the news at the time, I had no interest in seeing it in my fiction. I still don't, quite frankly, and I'm glad that we're finally starting to get the occasional fun show again, like Defiance.

Game of Thrones can't really be analysed as part of any post-9/11 trend. The first book was published in 1996, and A Storm of Swords (which contains the scene in question) was published in 2000. If there is this "post 9/11 grimdark" trend, GoT is unrelated, and would exist regardless.

I embrace what happened in A Storm of Swords primarily because fiction is dominated by the optimistic and the predictable. Even the "gritty" stuff usually has a foreseeable happy ending. If you're after "happy ending" escapism, try almost any film ever made (apart from The Wicker Man and Nineteen Eighty-Four).

Right, because a movie is the same thing as a long form TV show. As a book series, sure, Game of Thrones pre-dates the trend that was started with such shows as 24, Battlestar Galactica, and to a lesser extent, Star Trek: Enterprise[footnote]You could replace Captain Archer with Jack Bauer, and I don't think anyone would even notice. They're both bastards who have no qualms about torturing people if they think it will work, because 9/11 happened and good guys can commit torture now that our military does it.[/footnote], but I have to question if it would have ever been adapted into a TV show if that sort of grimdark property wasn't already proven to be popular.

That said, I don't have a problem with shows like that existing. I /do/ have a problem with the kind of shows I like not existing anymore because of them. I mentioned Defiance because it's the first new sci fi[footnote]Doctor Who aside. It's good, but it's also a completely different property from the kind of science fiction that American TV was so full of in the 90's.[/footnote] show I've seen since before the BSG reboot that had any sort of idealism to it that didn't also feel like it was making fun of me for being nerdy enough to watch it. I deal with enough assholes in real life to not want them to be the only thing I see on TV, too.

 

[Tanakh]

Call me hopelessly old-fashioned for wanting things to turn out happy for the heroes and for everything to be okay.

I just wanted to point out there's no way you can call this "old-fashioned". Most of classic dramas (greek till XV century) have at least this level of violence, you finding this too bleak tells me you are lacking in your Shakespeare, Sophocles, Euripides, you know, the classic old fashioned authors. Unless by old fashioned you are talking about the mass produced TV shows of the end of the last century.

 

[GAunderrated]

George Fat Fat Martin kills off characters whenever he gets bored with them. He did it many times in Wild Cards and that's why I gave up on reading those books. Stupid fanboys will try to invent justifications on why he does it but when Boil-chin gets bored with a character they die and he always gets bored with any character that's too good or honest. He's a gluttonous, slothful liar and those are the characters he likes to write for.

^ this ladies and gentlemen is why you shouldn't take your entertainment to an obsessive extent, you become an irrational, hate filled a-hole.

I love both the books and the show for GoT, enjoy having friendly discussion about the show, but I don't take these things personally. At the end of the day it is just entertainment and a fun distraction. If entertainment provokes such a irrational response then you need to take a step back.

 

[keosegg]

I've always maintained that the Game of Thrones series- I refuse to use the proper name for book the series, who the hell says "ice" before "fire"?!- is just an average series. The only thing it has going for it is audacity.

First of all, people who maintain that all the horrible things happening to the characters is a good thing. Take a look at real life. When someone is killed in a freak car accident, our response is a deep breath and a quick "so tragic" before moving on with our lives. When the same sort of thing has happened to someone we know, the response is very different.

The same sort of thing applies to the books. We have no time to get to know the characters, so when their inevitable, out of left field, death comes, we can only manage a "so tragic" before moving on. The reason we felt so emotional towards Eddard's death was because we got to know him, we saw his arc, we saw the writing on the wall. His death did not come out of left field, he brought it upon himself due to his unflinching honour. But since we were taught that the honourable person always lives, we were not expecting the sword to come down on his neck.

We knew Eddard, and his death was not out of left field when looking at it in hindsight.

Now we're getting new characters left right and centre. They have no time for an arc, so whether they die or not, we only say "so tragic" before moving on.

Now on to the topic of cliffhangers. Having a small scale cliffhanger at the end of a 1000 page novel that comes out every six years is stupid. Ever notice that TV shows only do that sort of thing during their weekly episodes, not their finales? Yeah, same sort of thing. Cliffhangers at the end of 1000 page novels that are released every 6 years should be big and world changing.

"Dany has dragons now, what will this mean for the world?"

This gives more for the reader to think about. We start thinking:

"Ooh, how will the Seven Kingdoms react to this? Will it change the political landscape in the long run?"

And this thought lasts a long time.

Small scale cliffhangers such as whether or not a character is dead, should be reserved for the chapters within the book. There is one answer to the question, there is nothing to think about during the downtime between books. It makes for a terrible way to end the series.

As for the bloat. "A Feast for Crows" was a 1000 page big book of nothing. It was all set up, no payoff. Cersei sat around and did nothing- aside from the random lesbian sex scene, which was utterly ridiculous. We spent god know how long with the smallfolk, with absolutely no time with the main characters. Not to mention, who the hell cares about how the Iron Islanders crown a new king? HOW they do it is utterly irrelevant, all that matters is WHO is the king.

"A Feast for Crows" was a book of nothing. You can't have an entire novel's worth of set up and wait six years for the payoff. The same problem as the cliffhangers applies here.

Needless to say, this is all my opinion.

 

[Wintermute_v1legacy]

I thought OP would say he gave up because season 3 has been incredibly boring. Things only started to get more interesting with episode 8. A large portion of the show this year was pretty much characters walking like it's The Fellowship of the Thrones. That's how I felt anyway. Maybe past seasons were the same in the walking department and I just didn't notice it.

Also, Catelyn is a *****. I didn't mind her in the books but she's annoying in the show. Robb Stark isn't much better. As long as Bran, Jon and Arya are alive, I'm ok. Sansa and Rickon are just... there. I haven't read the latest book yet, though, but I hope they don't die in that one.

If there's one character that shouldn't have died, that character is Ned. Ned Stark shouldn't have died. Boromir was the best thing in the show.

 

[keosegg]

I thought OP would say he gave up because season 3 has been incredibly boring. Things only started to get more interesting with episode 8. A large portion of the show this year was pretty much characters walking like it's The Fellowship of the Thrones. That's how I felt anyway. Maybe past seasons were the same in the walking department and I just didn't notice it.

If you hate it now, wait till they try adapting "A Feast for Crows". Seriously, nothing happened in that book, and yet it still needed to be over 1000 pages long.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"A Feast for Crows" was a book of nothing. You can't have an entire novel's worth of set up and wait six years for the payoff. The same problem as the cliffhangers applies here.

Eh. Lots happened in both AFFC and ADWD. They're less popular than the preceding books because they're transitioning rising action into climax, and thus there is a lot of pieces being moved and positioned (much as was the case with A Clash of Kings), but the long wait and lack of "payoff" lead to them receiving significantly more criticism than was their due. If you follow any of the SoIaF forums, the fan reaction to subsequent read-throughs tends to be significantly more positive, as the narrative isn't being crushed under the weight of expectation.

Let's look at "nothing happens".

Spoiler: AFFC/ADWD

JON - Dramatically reforms the Night's Watch, strikes an unprecedented truce with the Wildlings, gets assassinated. Sub plot of Stannis and his attempts to re-unify the north and march on Winterfell.

BRAN - Travels far north of the wall, evading Wights the whole way. Begins to uncover the truth of what awaits him via his gift.

DANY - Watches her fledgling "kingdom" unravel before her eyes as her grip on the region begins to slowly erode. Her dragons have gone feral and wild and end the book running roughshod over the city and setting up lairs. She's besieged, betrayed, ends up leaving the city with Drogon and goes halfway feral herself. You also get the sub-plot of the "Pale Rider"/bloody flux that is decimating the region.

TYRION - Possibly gets greyscale, gets enslaved, travels halfway around the world. Sub plot of discovering there is (possibly) a second Targaryen heir, or (possibly) a Blackfyre pretender with designs in invading Westeros and seizing the throne.

CERSEI - Attempts to manage the kingdom/Kings Landing, believing herself the "true heir" to Tywin Lannister, with disastrous results. Strikes a calamitous bargain with the faith allowing them to re-arm themselves, opening the doors to religious mania and the birth of something very similar to an inquisition. Sub-plot of Qyburn and his Mengele style experiments and "Robert Strong".

THEON - Constant flashbacks/scenes of almost unspeakable physical and psychological torture, culminating in one of the tensest set pieces in the entire series during his escape from Winterfell. Sub plot of Mance Rayder and the Wildling girls and the "mysterious murders" in the Bolton/Frey camp, as well as the whole "The North Remembers" bit with Wyman Manderley and his meat pies.

And on and on, really.

There are perfectly reasonable complaints about the 4th and 5th books. Too many new and one-off POV chapters. Too much travelogue and moving from place to place (particularly in the Jaime, Brienne and Tyrion chapters). The splitting of the narrative between two massive volumes resulting in both feeling oddly diluted.

There's no question GRRM could use tighter editorial oversight on this project, and that he's been allowed to sag into authorial excess. Declaring, however, that "nothing happens" in the two volumes is just...I really don't know what to say to that. I realize you threw in "IMO" which is universal short hand for "you cannot criticize or rebut this", but it's just an absurd criticism. The books are no less plot dense or short of set pieces than the preceding volumes.

I know you established with your sniffy hand wave that they're average books at best, so possibly you just don't consider ANYTHING he writes to be worth reading, but "I don't like it, ergo it sucks" is not a compelling foundation for an argument.

That said, I don't have a problem with shows like that existing. I /do/ have a problem with the kind of shows I like not existing anymore because of them. I mentioned Defiance because it's the first new sci fi show I've seen since before the BSG reboot that had any sort of idealism to it that didn't also feel like it was making fun of me for being nerdy enough to watch it. I deal with enough assholes in real life to not want them to be the only thing I see on TV, too.

What's going on with Defiance? All I know is the game tanked HARD and Trion had to lay off half their staff. I haven't really been following the show. From episode previews it looked absolutely ridiculous. You're the first person I've heard from who watches it. What's it about? What's the tone of it? What are some comparable shows?

 

[Madman123456]

Well, it is rather nice to know that we have at least one show where it can com to that: The op wont watch it anymore not because it's badly written or badly executed, he doesn't like the way the story is going.
Normally i abandon a story because it eventually bores me because the writers are getting lazy.

Game of thrones does fall into the same category as "spartacus" does. If i where a "noble" in those worlds i'd run like my life depended on it because for all i know it actually does.
Everyone is scheming and plotting all the time everyone is trying to murder everyone else. Doesn't that get tiring eventually? Well, i suppose you'd be dead long before then.
But there are old people around, how did they reach that age?

 

[Scorpid]

Read Prince Valiant. I heard bad things never really happen there. I understand that feeling though but getting mad over a emotional low point in the middle of the series is really silly. You can get mad at endings because the story doesn't go on but at that point you're not even halfway through the book series for a definitive end to be stuck with and be mad at.

 

[Zydrate]

I want to say nay to this but honestly?
Walking Dead did the same thing to me.
Killed off the best characters and the rest just became cretins that I couldn't enjoy watching.

For GoT I actually do research beforehand about my favorite characters and the few I do like, survive for an admirable amount of time. So I'm going to keep watching for them.

 

[WanderingFool]

Did that ***** Jeoffery die yet? No? Than I look forward to finally watching the series on a whole.

 

[Ambitiousmould]

I think the story is great. Usually in fantasy and fiction in general the hero always wins/survives and it takes all the tension out. In many stories you can't fear for the characters, because you know they'll be alright, the fact that in ASOIAF you never know who will die adds emotion and unpredictability that helps keep it interestering. Also it is logical and not just done for the sake of it, and gives the show and the books more of an atmosphere and a bit more depth.

This example may be a bit of a spoiler:

Spoiler

For instance, my favourite character, Dolorous Ed, isn't dead yet, and I can't see any reasons why he would get killed, but I never know - especially with him being a minor character and therefore rather expendable - so every time he is in harm's way I can fear for him, which draws me in more.

Also you'll miss out on some of the more interesting twists and plot points farther along if you quit now, and some very interesting (and badass) characters.

Just some reasons why you might stay, but whatever floats your boat. If it's not to your taste it's not to your taste, and most of us here are mature enough to not be too bothered by it. Just remember that it is still pretty early on (ish) at this point.

 

[DugMachine]

Please stick with it. It doesn't get better for the "good guys" (even though there really are none) but just know the "bad guys" are not completely safe either.

 

[DugMachine]

George Fat Fat Martin kills off characters whenever he gets bored with them. He did it many times in Wild Cards and that's why I gave up on reading those books. Stupid fanboys will try to invent justifications on why he does it but when Boil-chin gets bored with a character they die and he always gets bored with any character that's too good or honest. He's a gluttonous, slothful liar and those are the characters he likes to write for.

Wow... Rarely do I get upset from forum posts but.. I really hope you're trolling. Go back to your fairies and rainbows if you crave happy endings.

 

[Xenite]

George RR Martin has said himself that people who want fantasy tale endings should not read his books, it's not what he does. He even recommended another author (although I forget her name) who does write those types of stories.

Ohh, and the Mass Effect 3 comments.... last time I checked Martin didn't ask millions of people to HELP write the story for him. Game of Thrones isn't a pick a path adventure book.

 

[Ikasury]

i always find it funny when people complain about points like this in series... to me they are the BEST PART, of any series, why? THEY MAKE YOU FEEL!! that's right, it is my general opinion that if a media can make you SO F*CKING ANGRY, SAD, UPSET, WHATEVER you want to throttle the universe and bitchslap god and force them to turn back the clock... well, then the book, movie, series, whatever, has just accomplished something very few ever do...

IT MADE YOU CARE

take a step back and appreciate just HOW BAD YOU FELT at that moment, because very rarely does it happen...

typically media likes to gloss over 'BADSHIT HAPPENS' by slapping an immediate 'things will be better' deal... IT SHOULDN'T... not only does it cheapen the entire effect of WHAT-THE-FUCK-JUST-HAPPENED?! rage whatever just made you commit, it completely disassociates the fact that you, the reader, audience, person who's invested TIME into this overall waste-of-time that hobbies are, just forgot, for a moment, that this wasn't a REAL THING and you are ragging about it, because for that small moment, it made you feel something beyond yourself, it drew you in, made you feel, and to such an extent you have a permanent fixation on this one thing that happened... you should applaud such work...

i LOVE things that manage to do this... you want to know the last time i felt something like this? 3rd Birthday's ending... wanna know what the time before that was? reading the scene of the Eclipse from Berserk... THE MANGA VERSION, not the cop-out-fade-to-black-thrown-together-BS that was the 'anime' series, and quite frankly i'm looking forward to the completely FUCKED-BEYOND-ALL-REASON supposed rendition of the new 'Descent' film when if finally comes over to the US... do i 'like' such things in a gorn-fest fetish fashion? no... while i like gorn and the brutality of it all, most gorn/slasher-type things don't make you FEEL BAD for just watching/reading it, they make you all giddy and sadistically enjoy the blood as that's how its supposed to be, childish, fake, and just for puriant entertainment and you know it'll never truly affect anything...

BERSERK DOES NOT DO THAT... i MAKES you feel ashamed, hurt, disgusted, and downright violated just 'reading' what happens during the Eclipse, Miura's damn good at ruining sparkles and removing anything remotely 'likable' from that scene in the Manga... which is what i'm HOPING from the new movie, to feel utterly disgusted with myself for putting myself through such a thing because i actually give a flying-fuck about the characters and what happens to them...

you should LIKE things that make you CARE... it means you are human, not a sociopath who derives no enjoyment from anything or a psychopath that derives enjoyment from everything... you are just a normal human being that feels and is capable of empathy, and a piece of fiction, black ink on white paper, just made you 'feel' something that wasn't your own... works as such should be praised...

personally as someone that never read the books, i kinda wanna wait to see how the show turns out before getting all word-technical, i thought the scene was utterly FAN-FREAKIN'-TASTIC!! was it 'Eclipse' good? probably not as jarring, but was it up to 3rd Birthday ending standards with me crying and staring blankly about what just happened while knowing 'why' it happened just taking longer to fully accept it? YES!! yes it did, and like the previous season where i thought the battle of Blackwater was stunning, especially Cersi's whole show during that part specifically, Cat's part in this one... ooh... just OOH... so much love there... for the actress, the scene, the character, etc. etc. as a whole i loved it in the same sense as the other two scenes... do i like 'what happened'? HELL NO!! it'd be like if someone came out of nowhere and stabbed Dany with no explination or exposition, THAT would piss me off more honestly, but this was all set out so... GOOD!! and all the extra hits were just so EVIL... it all worked so well and provided the added push of doing what it needed to do, MAKE THE AUDIENCE CARE!!

so no, in my opinion, while you are utterly upset about 'what' happened, that should be no reason to throw away the books/series entirely... i agree with throwing the book... if my lappy weren't key to my life i probably would have thrown it too after my brain reseted from that amazing scene, but its moments like this that should make you want to push on further, as the series has proven its worth in that instant, its made you care, therefore its worth your time... you shouldn't throw it away as so few things accomplish such... ESPECIALLY nowadays where everything is so cheap and quick... GoTs series is honestly one of the few bright spots for me at this point for anything 'interesting'...

*tosses two cents in the bowl*

 

[LAGG]

Well, one thing I know: the Red Woman scares me!
And today's episode can turn out awesome...

Skip to 5:20

 

[Azahul]

"A Feast for Crows" was a book of nothing. You can't have an entire novel's worth of set up and wait six years for the payoff. The same problem as the cliffhangers applies here.

Eh. Lots happened in both AFFC and ADWD. They're less popular than the preceding books because they're transitioning rising action into climax, and thus there is a lot of pieces being moved and positioned (much as was the case with A Clash of Kings), but the long wait and lack of "payoff" lead to them receiving significantly more criticism than was their due. If you follow any of the SoIaF forums, the fan reaction to subsequent read-throughs tends to be significantly more positive, as the narrative isn't being crushed under the weight of expectation.

You know, I've been feeling that the whole series has been in a downwards spiral since the end of the first book. My friends sold me on the books by describing them as full of politics and shenanigans and manipulations. They're... really not. They're books about politics failing. It takes something serious for me to compare a series favourably to something by Raymond E. Feist, but his Daughter of the Empire books are vastly superior when it comes to the kind of politics and double-dealing that A Game of Thrones seemed to promise, but that subsequent books utterly failed to deliver. The problem seems to be that almost all of the fun manipulations boils down to one character. The assertion by the first book, that the honourable character will ultimately fail and die in the midst of all the politicking, was interesting, but even the dishonourable characters are bad at it. A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons have only be emphasising this with Cersei's hilarious series of blunders.

Ultimately, a lot of my problems with the series probably boil down to having gone into them with a particular idea of what they were going to be about and then finding that they actually fall a lot short of what I thought they'd be. Daughter of the Empire is a story about politically savvy individuals undermining one another in a world influenced greatly by Eastern concepts of honour and clan prestige, where the aim tends more to be to force your opponent into a situation where they have no recourse but to commit suicide to save face. A Song of Ice and Fire is a lot less subtle, really, and I was expecting all the characters to be a lot more manipulative and complicated than they ultimately turned out to be. Still, I think it's valid to point out that A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons have been about little more than everyone, good and bad, just being utterly incompetent to the point of silliness. If you look at that description of events you posted about the books, no one with any power is actually succeeding at anything. It's just laughable. I gotta agree with keosegg in all this. It's a pretty average series, and the further it goes from the backroom politics of the first book the more the quality seems to drop.

 

[cerebreturns]

What could have possibly made you think game of thrones would end well? Even in the first book...what could have possibly ever given you that impression? There isn't a bit in the books that even hints at it to me :shrugs: