"Get back to your own countries!" Says illiterate woman on tram O_o

pulse2

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zehydra said:
MelasZepheos said:
zehydra said:
MelasZepheos said:
zehydra said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
She doesn't have an interesting opinion. She has a rampantly racist opinion and thinks that countless people who have put more into my country than she ever will should leave based on their skin colour. End of.

Edit: And before they crawl out the woodwork, no, she is not protected by freedom of speech. She deserved to be arrested and the police have every justification to punish her.
oh and out of the woodwork they came...

I don't know if it's illegal to be racist in Britain, but it doesn't really make sense to arrest somebody because they say something which offends somebody in a public setting, since that would be a slippery slope with no well-defined end to it.

I do think that the public transportation system should be allowed to kick her off the train though.
So you don't think that verbally abusing someone on the grounds of race in public is worthy of arrest? She not only insulted and attacked anyone on the train who wasn't white, but she also directly abused at least one black woman. We have laws about public disruption specifically to deal with people like this.

It is illegal to be racist in Britain, and before you counter with 'America land of the free', they have laws about public order disruption and racism in America too.

Otherwise it would be entirely legal to say whatever you wanted in public, and that would be absurd.
No, it is not worthy of arrest. They can and should however keep her off the train if they want. If she refuses then, they should be able to arrest her on the grounds of trespassing (or some kind of other law you want to enact that deals directly with this issue)
Well actually I suppose it doesn't matter what you or even I think, because the law is very clear.

Under the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006, the laws regarding breaches of the peace and disorderly conduct, this woman should be arrested. (UK)

If she was in America, then under whatever the state had as a law about disorderly conduct as well as racial relations laws she would be arrested.

What you think doesn't matter at all, because the rule of law both for America and Britain is clear. She incited racial hatred, she disrupted the peace, and she was guilty of disorderly conduct. Would you like me to find more laws she was guilty of breaking?
I never denied that she was breaking any laws. I was merely stating that she shouldn't be. That is, it is my opinion that there is a problem with a law which states that you can be arrested for inciting one person to act violently against you, regardless of context.

I don't really care too much about racial laws in Britain since the racial situation over there is quite different than it is over here.
I don't think it matters too much to be honest, like you said, that's why our laws differ, why we'll never understand how laws work over there and why you'll never understand how laws work over here. For example my debate with someone a few months ago regarding the use of guns and how he believed it was stupid we didn't have the rights to freely have guns over here in the UK, to which I replied that we didn't need guns. We grew up in a different society whereby the use of guns is seen as taboo, unnecessary. Which is why we didn't resort to rubber / plastic bullets to tame our riots a few months ago, it was simply seen as inhumane / brutal in our eyes.

Its the same with verbal abuse in public domains, its not that freedom of speech is restricted, at least not in our eyes, because we in the UK are very good at expressing how angry we are when we don't like something, probably more so than most countries, that's why some countries think we get away with murder, but no matter how much we explain that, I guess it would be difficult for someone from the US to understand that brought up under different circumstances, rules and laws. She had every right to express her opinion, and in a typical situation people would have ignored her and deemed her a drug addict or something of the sort spouting off nonsense, but when she got personal, using fingers to point and specifically looking at those she was abusing, people rightfully took offense.

She was arrested not for speaking her mind, believe me, people do that every day here, you get used to it, but for being incredibly abusive, inciting racial hatred and for swearing, provoking aggression towards her fellow travelers.

Now bear in mind that she was only "arrested", not locked up. The most she will get is a slap on the hand and told not to do it again, its hardly worthy of putting her in prison for, giving her an asbo or making her do community service, it was a one off. But if she kept it up or even used physical violence towards another, she would be put behind bars.

To me, that's a civilized society.
 

someonehairy-ish

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Beryl77 said:
Funny thing is, her ancestors probably also immigrated to Britain at some point. Of course she'd never acknowledge that.
Well considering that people originated on the african continent, yep, they did.
But she also forgets that british white people are basically a combination of german, anglo saxon, a little bit of celt, some norman, some roman...
 

Felstaff

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*sigh* there were none of them around when I was younger. Now you can't go without seeing them everywhere! This country used to be great, back when they weren't around; we were at the forefront of civilisation. Now we've taken a step backwards and are lagging behind the rest of the civilised world because you can't turn a street corner without seeing them there. Always, there. Sometimes alone, sometimes in groups 8-10 strong. They make our country look bad, and primitive.

I am, of course, referring to the trams. Who the hell uses trams any more? What is this, 1930s San Francisco?




Oh, and the social services have been notified [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15923875] about this racist woman, and are looking into it. I hope she gets her child taken from her. No kid deserves to be brought up by parents who have such repugnant views.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Ubermetalhed said:
Also why is it that the kid behind her suddenely stands up all riled when she stupidly says go back to Nicaragua?
a) he wasn't inclined to just swallow any of it
b) she did not say Nicaragua. She basically wielded big words of racism right there, along the lines of summoning melon farming Nigrodamus. While I strongly oppose violence, I can understand how the young man took personal offense from the whole exchange of expletives, since the majority of them were basically aimed at him and, well, people like him. It looks like he felt like continuing or ending the argument in a physical manner, and assorted members of the public stepped in to stop him from doing so.

I myself am not sure if the lady just had a bad day, was under the influence of Wonderland pills or powders or if she really suffers from lack of intellect. She communicated her being very unhappy with the results of years of immigration. Her tram rant might look like front page material right now, but the issues at hand are far more serious and far more threatening. In times of crysis, financial or otherwise, racism and general xenophobia or aversions to anything unlike oneself are bound to grow exponentially. Alas, the tram lady is but a symptom, a ranting fool, a bio-indicator. We'll see how this turns out. It will be discussed.
 

Iron Mal

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Tom Milner said:
i don't want to live on this planet anymore
Oh brighten up, humanity isn't that bad.

I wish people would stop with overdramatic responses like that.

Back on topic though, I've listened through to her little rant here and decided to answer a few of her 'cries for justice' (spoilered for conveinience).

"You're all fuckin' [pause] different, you ain't English! You ain't English either! None of you are fuckin' English"

England has become something of a 'hub' of the world in the last century (as to why this is there are several possible reasons although it's most likely related to the former British Empire), as a result it's only natural that there are going to be a wider variety of people living in England as a result, whether this is a good or bad thing depends on your own personal view of immigration (I personally have no problem with it).

"Britain is fuck all now, my Britain is fuck all, Britain is fuck all, my britches[?] is fuck all"

A natural result of being a multi-cultural 'world hub' is that as you adopt more and more customs from other locations your own are going to seem slightly less prominant and central.

In this case the worry presented by some Brits is that 'Englishness' as we traditionally view it will be wiped out completely because of supposedly over-zealous Political Correctness from politians attempting to appease immigrants and appear benevolent.

To be frank, there is no risk of 'Britishness' being a thing of the past as long as there are still British people (which there are plenty of), we still posess many of the traditional 'hallmarks of Englishness' (Bulldogs, the British Pound Sterling, an excessive love for tea, the Royal Family, Big Ben, being terrible at any sport we invent, the British stiff upper lip and numerous others that haven't disappeared despite the increase in immigration).

"I got a little kid here, fuck you! [Is threatened to be thrown off the train] Really? Dare you, I fuckin' dare you!"

I seriously have to question the parenting skills of someone who is actively antagonising and provoking someone into a physical fight when they have their child in their lap on a crowded train full of people they've no doubt angered as the result of their ranting.

It seems to me like she's pretty much using the kid as a human shield here (my sympathies to the child).

"I work! I work! Was my British country until we let you lot come over here! You ain't British! You ain't British! Are you British? (increasingly frustrated response of 'yes, I am' from other passenger) You ain't British!"

I'm not doubting that the woman in question works and has a job but by the same token so do several people who come to England from overseas (and I'm sure they work very hard at their jobs too), however, there are a large number of 'native' British people who don't work and yet still complain (I'm not berating anyone for not working, I understand all too well that finding a job these days can be a job in itself), it sadly comes off as some British people being entitled whiners who believe that just because they're 'native' British that they deserve preferential treatment (which is simply not how it works).

As for the whole 'are you British?' question, what exactly is it that makes someone British? If it's simply being born in the United Kingdom then I'm fairly certain a huge number of the people she's yelling at on that train are also British and can also call the country 'my Britain'.

If that isn't it then what is it exactly?

I'm English/Irish (Irish on my mother's side) with their family only having moved to England in my mother's generation, does this lessen my 'Englishness' somehow?

Until this can be clearly defined it's very shakey ground to try and call someone out as not being a 'true' English person.

"You're black! You ain't British, you're black! Where'd you come from? Where'd you come from?"

Okay, now we've deviated quite a bit from the issue of immigration and cultural identity and firmly into open racism.

Sorry, there is no discussion or analysis to be had about this bit and the rest of the video, it's just plain racism on display here.

Overall her opinion is ignorant and repulsive, also, I should probably point out to Americans on here that we technically don't actually have 'Freedom of Speech' here in the UK so that has no impact on her 'right' to 'express herself' in this fashion.

Given that I couldn't see anything that happened before or after the video the only thing I could say they'd give her criminal charges for would be incitement of racial hatred (listen to the last thirty seconds of the video, it does devolve into that) and also for causing a public disturbance (which I'm fairly certain is a crime) so I wouldn't say that the supposed charges she was given were unjustified or 'oppressive'.
 

Smokej

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pulse2 said:
Thirdly, England has to deal with immigration more so than Netherlands, I'm certain of it, when anyone in Europe ever talks about illegal immigration, they talk about the UK, not France, not Germany, not Italy, the UK, because people travel from far and wide JUST to come to the UK. I've never heard of an immigrant traveling from a deprived country to get to Netherlands, but feel free to enlighten me, any information you can provide is education to me in my eyes.
according to the offical Eurostat statistics Spain and Germany are the main targets for immigrants in europe

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-08-098/EN/KS-SF-08-098-EN.PDF
 

Fetzenfisch

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Smokej said:
pulse2 said:
Thirdly, England has to deal with immigration more so than Netherlands, I'm certain of it, when anyone in Europe ever talks about illegal immigration, they talk about the UK, not France, not Germany, not Italy, the UK, because people travel from far and wide JUST to come to the UK. I've never heard of an immigrant traveling from a deprived country to get to Netherlands, but feel free to enlighten me, any information you can provide is education to me in my eyes.
according to the offical Eurostat statistics Spain and Germany are the main targets for immigrants in europe

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-08-098/EN/KS-SF-08-098-EN.PDF
yup spains geographical position makes it the no.1 entrance to the eu.And Germanys legal situation attracts the others
 

Demix

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I read the title expecting an American, how surprised I was to hear a British accent.
As much as I'm glad it didn't come from my side of the water, it doesn't really excuse how out of line she was. Even if I could blame it on alcohol it doesn't really make any difference.
 

ChildishLegacy

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Ok to clean up this freedom of speech crap:
Yes, she can have these irrational, nonsensical and horrible opinions, but it SHOULD be against the law to harass other people while they are going about their day to day lives, this isn't an infringement against freedom of speech, this is arrest for causing a lot of distress in public (all be it due to a horrendous, racist ideology).

How horrible must it be to not be able to get through a day, without being shouted and sweared at in front of your own children, and be told to go back to your own country, when you have lived here in the UK since birth? If this wasn't illegal to do in England, I for one would not be happy, you should not be able to say such horrible things to people all day every day, she deserves what she gets, she got arrested for saying horrible things to people she didn't know, this is NOTHING to do with opinions or freedom of speech, stop trying to defend such a waste of a human.

And I hope to god somebody teaches that kid to live other than her, or he's in a lot of trouble...
 

Micalas

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Vanguard_Ex said:
She doesn't have an interesting opinion. She has a rampantly racist opinion and thinks that countless people who have put more into my country than she ever will should leave based on their skin colour. End of.

Edit: And before they crawl out the woodwork, no, she is not protected by freedom of speech. She deserved to be arrested and the police have every justification to punish her.
Can't watch videos at work but unless she's inciting violence she should be covered under Freedom of Speech. Her country may not cover her but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be free to say it.

The Westboro Baptist Church for instance is a disgusting group full of vile people who I'd love to see on a plane with two stalled engines but they are and still should be covered by Freedom of Speech.
 

Vanguard_Ex

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Micalas said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
She doesn't have an interesting opinion. She has a rampantly racist opinion and thinks that countless people who have put more into my country than she ever will should leave based on their skin colour. End of.

Edit: And before they crawl out the woodwork, no, she is not protected by freedom of speech. She deserved to be arrested and the police have every justification to punish her.
Can't watch videos at work but unless she's inciting violence she should be covered under Freedom of Speech. Her country may not cover her but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be free to say it.

The Westboro Baptist Church for instance is a disgusting group full of vile people who I'd love to see on a plane with two stalled engines but they are and still should be covered by Freedom of Speech.
That's the thing, she is covered to say it. No one has stopped her. But she's also infringing the racial and religious hatred act 2006. I won't go into it because I'm bored now after arguing about it a lot today but it basically balances her out as being more indictable for wrongdoing that not.
Have a pleasant day at work.
Amendment: Ah, THIS is what I'm looking for. This is our stance on hate speech in the UK:
In England, Wales, and Scotland, the Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred, which is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says:
A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if:
(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.
 

Soxafloppin

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go back to where?

south-fucking-nig-rera?

Something tells me she made that place up.
 

Brian Hendershot

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Nice to see that everything isn't as rosey on the other side of the pond as everyone seems to make it out.

Anyhow, I am just really impressed by the girl that was on her phone the entire time. She is between the White English women and the women from South-fucking-nig-rera.
 

pulse2

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Smokej said:
pulse2 said:
Thirdly, England has to deal with immigration more so than Netherlands, I'm certain of it, when anyone in Europe ever talks about illegal immigration, they talk about the UK, not France, not Germany, not Italy, the UK, because people travel from far and wide JUST to come to the UK. I've never heard of an immigrant traveling from a deprived country to get to Netherlands, but feel free to enlighten me, any information you can provide is education to me in my eyes.
according to the offical Eurostat statistics Spain and Germany are the main targets for immigrants in europe

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-08-098/EN/KS-SF-08-098-EN.PDF
That's because it's the first port of call, spain, germany and france all have one thing in common, they don't entertain immigration like we in the UK do. Of course immigrants have to pass through these countries, but in most cases, given the chance, they wouldn't stay there. Their aim is to get here, to the UK, where they can get free housing, job opportunities, free education, free healthcare etc, to them it's the light at the end of the tunnel, or so they are lead to believe, the last couple of years haven't been that peachy for immigrants as we tighten up our borders, which means many immigrants are getting stuck in countries like France, Germany, Spain etc without a means to progress any further, that doesn't mean they are all aiming for the UK, some simply want to be somewhere within Europe that provides a better standard of living that is easiest to reach. Spain and Germany are by far fantastic candidates for that cause, I've been to both countries and loved them. But neither are as forgiving and as accommodating as we are here, which is partially our flaw.

There was a documentary about that too where three different raced people went to the country where their ancestors escaped from to find out why people are still trying so desperately to get to the UK, how they are managing to do it, and what happens when they can't get any further in their journey are are forced to make do.

Take France for example, illegal immigrants live in slums there before being deported, in comparison, deportee or not, illegal immigrants get treated like everyone else here does, nice room, fed, tv, etc which is where the controversy sparks because there are several here who are fed up with that very same issue.

Blablahb said:
Exactly, you'd be ignored. You wouldn't be frontpage news and in prison. And that's what's the problem here: all are not equal before the law.
You missed my point entirely, I would be ignored because I haven't specifically targeted or directed my aggravation or abuse at anyone, I'm just ranting to myself, if I go and do exactly what that woman did on the tram tonight, I too would be arrested by tomorrow morning.

It has nothing to do with race and I think you are stuck on that point because you believe that there is some kind of unfair injustice in the world. Face up to it, we all get it, whites people are not excluded from anything is this is the debate you want to get into. We all get stereotyped, we all get pulled up by the police for different stupid things that we may or may not have done, that's life.

Then how come it's tolerated from some groups, but not from others? Because like I said: if the video was about a deranged Muslim ranting at the women on the tram that they were western whores, no way the police would've bothered to do something about it.

White person says something similarly stupid: The police are out in force to aprehend this terrible offender.
Again, where are you getting your facts from :/ You certainly can't be talking about the UK, I don't know how things work in Netherlands but if that's the issue over there then it's your country you need to have a qualm about, not ours, over here muslim, black, white, chinese, whatever race, culture, religion you belong to, you have no right to abuse others. You seem to have an issue with muslims in particular, so let me inform you that over here aggressive muslims are not accepted or ignored, they are arrested, just like this woman was. Read up on it, news articles are there for a reason and believe me, I've been in my fair share of angry debates regarding people from other countries telling us how we should live our lives and trying to change our rules. Do you honestly think this woman is the only one to get the full wrath of the english public? Like I said, you obviously know NOTHING about the UK.

It's probably different groups, but there's still a ton of problems with some immigrant groups. All in all, non-western immigrants or their first generation of descendants form some 10% of the total population.

The largest group, and one of the most problematic, are Moroccans, or to be more specific: Berbers. (because there's a large difference between Moroccans from cities and Berber tribes from the mountains, Berbers are often despised as ignorant, old fashioned and barbaric by Moroccans)
Some 350.000 of them, starting as immigrant workers in the 1970's. They particularly don't take well to the presence of another immigrant group Molukkers. These are mostly members and descendants of the KNIL army in the Dutch East Indies. Indonesia invaded and brutally occupied their state while they were in Dutch military service, and to disband them would've meant their deaths at the hands of Sukarno's murderers, so they were all moved to the Netherlands. Last year, a neighbourhood in Culemborg (sleepy village in the middle of the country, just south of Utrecht) was locked down by the riot police for months because of racial tensions. Molukkans are pretty easy to get along with providing you're not Moroccan though. Why the two groups hate eachother so much, I don't know.
Then we get a lot of problematic people from the Dutch Antilles, because we made the mistake of issueing them Dutch passports, so there's nothing you can do about them immigrating here.
Much smaller, but the most problematic, are Somalians, with some 93% unemployment rate (in 2009).
Turks are another large group of immigrants here. They're not quite as problematic though, aside from the fact that they brought murders for family honour along. For instance in 1999, a boy wounded 6 people in our only ever highschool shooting to save the honour of his family after somebody flirted with his sister.
One thing that's a problems it Turks and Kurds among eachother though. Wherever the two groups meet you got a major riot. There was one just last weeks when groups of Turks attacked and set fire to a Kurdish community centre.
You only call it 'immigration problems' because you are already looking at the negatives, like I said, I don't know how it works out there, so I'm keeping zipped on that topic, but I DO know how it works over here, I vote, I see, I take part in, I am a member of communities, I study, I involve myself in enough to be able to make a clear and concise judgement of what I witness, while we have our "immigration issues" if you want to call it that, we also have many benefactors from immigration (not illegal immigration, like I said, that's a different thing entirely) but simply from immigration, people here have become accepting, cultured, understanding, the traditionalists may still be racist, but the youth are growing up with multicultured friends so their perspective of different races and cultures differs from their parents and grandparents. Many of my aunties, uncles, etc stick to black people, they don't talk to people outside of our race much, which I find sad because all my friends are completely different, I have a best Chinese mate, I have a best muslim mate, I have 2 best hindu Indian mates, I have a turkish best friend, two greek best friends, quite a few mixed raced friends, lots of white british born friends and tons of fellow black friends. It was because I was brought up in this country under these circumstances that I have no reservations accepting different races and cultures into my life. I'm not homophobic, got gay friends, and the term "bisexual" is something I knew since I was 8 or probably younger, who knows, I certainly can't remember, but that's besides the point, the point is that if someone was to make a remark about any of my friends I'd be there to back them up.

So here you are moaning about whites being scrutinized, but my white friends are more pissed off with what this woman said then I am :/ I got wind of this the video FROM my pissed off white ex-girlfriend, lol. It just goes to show.

As for the guy in the documentary, doesn't matter what his intentions were, he was aggressive and intimidating, he got arrested, and so should she.
 

Arbi Trax

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Oh Gawd, another one escaped...

PRETEND YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT!

TRA LA LA..

Watch this instead!

 

cheese_wizington

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Now imagine everyone on the tram is like the lady at 2:03. Wouldn't that just be nice and peaceful?

Oh well, people are dicks.