Grumblr

[Cowabungaa]

I mostly read tumblur for the comedy potential. I don't care how hard you fight, I will not stop laughing when you claim to be a draconic otherkin.

Honestly that part of tumblr just makes me feel uncomfortable. These are people who are either totally insane or have lives that are so shitty they feel the need to create this elaborate fantasy to escape from them and feel special. Makes me sad whenever I run into it.

I feel the same way about the way certain members of all of the 'fandoms' cling to fictional characters, not to mention the whole shipping them. Getting emotionally involved with fictional worlds is understanding, but the extreme way it sometimes happens in fandoms is sort of sad. The way it's glorified is damaging even, I'd say.

Again, I think, a sign that there is way too much emotion and not enough level, critical thinking going on. Not surprising, consider that many people with mental issues find Tumblr to be a safe haven and that they usually have other stuff going on in their minds. But I doubt they're healthy attitudes to have, for their recovery too.

The whole thing with Harry Potter houses for instance. Good heavens that's frightening.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

But that's not even the point, nor is it the problem. The problem is that people are judged on that assumption by a part of Tumblr's social justice community. They are not treated as individuals, thus it's being discrimination.

I must say the Escapist is currently handling this better than I expected. Its weird how sometimes these threads turn into massive shitstorms and sometimes only into little shitstorms. People seem to be generally trying to talk things through right now.

It's funny, actually. I first started running into this side of Tumblr here on the Escapist, starting back in 2011 with the Slut Walk. I think the reason this thread hasn't blown up yet is none of those posters have shown up yet (and some of the most toxic ones have been banned). Not unless Andy of Comix Inc. is actually being serious here, anyway.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

For further information: Visit <link=https://twitter.com/TumblrTXT>Tumblr.txt.

And yes, the topics Tumblr tackles are real and should be discussed, but not that way. Not that way.

Words can not properly express how I feel now that you introduced me to this. I find this twitter feed to be fascinating, hilarious, and one of the most perverse things I have ever seen (and I've seen OH SO MANY things thanks to the internet). Every time I read a post I want to laugh, because obviously it can't be serious. It HAS to be satire or a joke. Then I become frustrated, or angry, or shocked, or just plain depressed as I realize this might be for real.

It's real. I saw the full text of that first tweet, the one about Jasmine somehow being Disney's first trans princess, a couple of weeks ago, thanks to <link=http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction>this subreddit, which exists to point out just how psychotic-ly racist, sexist, and just generally xenophobic the Tumblr brand of Social Justice is. Also, unlike most other places on the internet dedicated to calling it out, most of the members are actual sane feminists, LGBTQ activists, proponents of racial equality, etc. etc. who are pissed off by the bad name that Tumblr is giving them, instead of a bunch of people who are just as bigoted as the Tumblr SJWs, but in the opposite direction.

Edit: Oh hey, today's Critical Miss is at the top of the list. Which one of you bozos posted it? XD

 

[Gorrath]

Well, all I can do is present my perception, so, in no particular order...

In practice, I prefer to be informed before making a decision. Sounds blunt to the point of being stupidly obvious, but irrational snap-judgments is the source of virtually every mistake I make in life (well, a mistake in cases where I can better inform myself prior).

I do too, and I'd like to think that most of us do really. That's why I like to think our internet discussions as an arena for ideas where we can spread and seek as much understanding as possible. I'd like to think it's all more than just fury and sound. If I hold an opinion on a subject that is based on some level of ignorance, I want that ignorance shattered spectacularly. I don't think you and I disagree on this though.

Vain as it is, I try to recognize the line between advocacy for a position and necessity for action based on that position. Contrary to what activists will tell you, they are not always the same thing, even if one can lead to the other. Upon reflection, that's where a lot of my "ignorance/apathy" comes from. Most issues are completely out of my grasp beyond an affirmative grunt or dismissive bray.
Maybe I'm just not "French enough", but if social change results in the long run, so be it.
It might be better, it might be worse. I'm just too bombarded by information to consider, let alone act on all of it.
(Which I suppose is as good of a transition I can get to my next point.)

I think you and I are largely in agreement here too. Simply advocating a position isn't enough, one must take the time and effort to convince others of the truth of the position. This is where many of the Tumblr people tend to fail, they not only fail to understand that simply claiming they or their position is the correct one is not a compelling argument, they also tend to attack anyone who does not automatically agree with their position. Their form of advocacy not only does not help their cause, it actively hurts it. This leads some to suspect that their loud, aggressive outpouring of scorn is pretentious and self-aggrandizing. It is an accusation that is itself probably overused, but is deservedly leveled at some.

I also agree that no one of us can be fully invested in every issue, but perhaps we can do our individual best to be as informed as one could reasonably expect? As you mentioned, we have a wonderful tool in the internet giving us amazing access to information. This privilege is not one we should take lightly. And though we may not arm ourselves with knowledge to engage in protracted and exhausting arguments, it may at least sway our hand at the ballot box. That's where I find the real practicality of it. Even if we do not become advocates for any cause, we can at least make an informed decision about what to support with our votes.

As for the self-righteous shame-campaigns some parts of the internet (Tumblr) loves: I'm not especially enamored with folks damning me for a position on a subject where I don't actually hold any, and/or demanding that I side with them right after as "penance".

I find that self-righteous "Ignorance is a crime" mentality is especially absurd when ignorance, which is inherent to [everyone who has ever lived, is in practice, far more likely to be dispelled by chance contact with a subject, and not intentionally seeking. Most subjects I do actively take issue with, I at least try to NOT open with an insult the audience with suppositions about their ignorance (I occasionally do so regardless, being fallible, but I digress).

I do not wield the word ignorance as an insult, but as a description of a person's lacking of key information about a subject. I know we tend to use that word as a club to beat people into submission (the Tumblr-ites we are speaking of tend to do this egregiously) but that's not the way I use it nor the way I presume it's used when someone calls me ignorant. Ignorance is no crime, it isn't a sin and I wish it wasn't even an insult. As you say, the shame campaigns and insults are a big reason people end up doing more harm than good to their own position.

Put another way: There are infinitely many problems in the world for one person to identify, and a finite amount of effort one has available. It makes no sense to me to drop everything for the sake of chasing some amorphous issue until my own life is already in order.

And I'd no less think of you as a brother or sister for thinking that way, though I do not think I need to have my life in order to advocate for the fair treatment of others. I shall chase these amorphous issues till I rot, but that is simply a goal I've made for myself. It would be foolish of me to expect everyone else to share the same goals. I do hope that more people do try to exercise the privilege to access information granted by the internet, and should they choose to make a statement that conflicts with the facts as I understand them, I shall reach out to them in an attempt at dialogue about it. If they've no wish to engage me in return because they think I'm a fool or an egotistical wind-bag, I shall not shame them for it.

I'm of two minds about many things (hence, part of my screen name).
(It's also why I'd make a terrible politician; I have to consider too many angles to align with any specific party agenda.)

Currently, most subjects I actively care about, I'm not happy with their state or direction: So overtly, I'm rather pessimistic.

But I also try (usually in vain) to seek solutions that are within my means; or failing that, understanding where or why no means exist. So it's not pure pessimism; nor pure cynicism, because true cynics just surrender to passive-aggressive self-rot (like a certain popular internet celebrity on this site).
Which, sadly, I used to.

That's my rambling, discordant response.

I'm an optimistic cynicist really. I hope for the best and expect the worst. It leaves me vulnerable to others, but I accept that as a consequence of my philosophy. I like to seek practical solutions as well, though they are not as practical as I sometimes lead myself to believe. Good to meet you by the way, our rambling back-and-fourth is like chewing on something delicious.

 

[Czann]

It was a good site for many things but the SJW types are insufferable and make the experience a pain. They are always right and only them, no one else can be right.

 

[DataSnake]

Usually the reason people bring up something about someone else's race, gender, sex ect. in a discussion, it is either to shout that person down because, "X group is supremely ignorant of Y issue, and therefore any person who is of that description does not get to have an opinion." or simply acts as an inflammatory and pointless line meant to prop up one's own statements through an attack on their opponent.

You're missing a pretty big reason that race, gender, and so on get brought up in discussions of social justice issues: experience. If we were having a discussion on relativity and someone said "I've never seen my watch slow down when I'm in a fast car, so Einstein was wrong", I'd feel quite justified in pointing out that they obviously didn't understand the theory well enough to contribute to the conversation and needed to either study more, shut up and listen, or go do something else. Likewise, if we're talking about hate crime laws and someone pipes up with "I've never been assaulted and there are no hate crime laws protecting white men, so obviously nobody else needs them either", I feel just as justified in pointing out that they have no experience with the kind of prejudice those laws are meant to counter and should either read up or shut up. It's not about trying to silence white men, it's about learning about issues your race and gender have kept you from facing firsthand before you shoot your mouth off about them.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

On the more practical side, such broad-ranging and multi-faceted discussions can change the whole zeitgeist of a society over time. The French revolution was in part inspired by the discussions had in the parlors where ideas were bandied about by people of different classes and standings. I like to think of these discussions that way and I think social changes will come faster as we raise whole generations on greater access to discussion with all sorts of people from all walks of life.

So what you're saying is that if these clowns ever sit down and start having thoughtful, meaningful discussions instead of flinging angry rhetoric, it'll eventually end with mass guillotinings of the people they despise and anyone accused of taking their side?

...I think I'm OK with the status quo now.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Oh God, I've never prayed to you before, but if you could so just one thing for me... Make this event as glorious as the White Guy Internet Defense Force comic.

Please. It would be so incredible.

And if you do not listen, then to hell with you.

OT:
Anywho, I fully agree.

The idea that Tumblr is impervious to criticism just because their cause is just is absolute nonsense.

 

[Gorrath]

On the more practical side, such broad-ranging and multi-faceted discussions can change the whole zeitgeist of a society over time. The French revolution was in part inspired by the discussions had in the parlors where ideas were bandied about by people of different classes and standings. I like to think of these discussions that way and I think social changes will come faster as we raise whole generations on greater access to discussion with all sorts of people from all walks of life.

So what you're saying is that if these clowns ever sit down and start having thoughtful, meaningful discussions instead of flinging angry rhetoric, it'll eventually end with mass guillotinings of the people they despise and anyone accused of taking their side?

...I think I'm OK with the status quo now.

No, while the French revolution did end up in an exceedingly dark place due to people demonizing other people, the ideas that initially fed into a desire for liberty were partly inspired by the parlor gatherings that became popular at the time. The sharing of information by and with people of other walks of life can breed greater understanding between them. Unfortunately good ideas and movements can be co-opted by those with their own agenda of hatred. Die CIS scum anyone?

 

[BlumiereBleck]

There is hope for the Escapist! Praise be Cory and Grey!

 

[RoonMian]

White, straight males tend to be supremely ignorant.

You're not suggesting I'm prone to ignorance because of the color of my skin or my sexual preference, are you? Because that's prejudicial as hell.

I'm not suggesting anything. I don't know you. I think statistically most white, straight people tend to be ignorant of not-white, straight issues. This is what I've found in my experience. I'm not presuming anything about you personally. We've not met. You could be lovely. I think you may not be but I shan't pass judgement on you immediately. It's just more likely.

It's called privilege blindness. Every group of people has that problem with their own privileges because it's tied to how the brain works. And since white, christian, heterosexual males have arguably the most priviliges they are in danger to be blind to a lot of issues.

That said generalising this like you do takes it a step to far though, I think.

-- Edited a bit for clarity.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I haven't seen much of tumblr, I'm currently not on tumblr, and now I'm not sure I want to join. Everything I learned about tumblr I got from this:

http://youtu.be/2m-e4PgiVfM

 

[Gorrath]

Usually the reason people bring up something about someone else's race, gender, sex ect. in a discussion, it is either to shout that person down because, "X group is supremely ignorant of Y issue, and therefore any person who is of that description does not get to have an opinion." or simply acts as an inflammatory and pointless line meant to prop up one's own statements through an attack on their opponent.

You're missing a pretty big reason that race, gender, and so on get brought up in discussions of social justice issues: experience. If we were having a discussion on relativity and someone said "I've never seen my watch slow down when I'm in a fast car, so Einstein was wrong", I'd feel quite justified in pointing out that they obviously didn't understand the theory well enough to contribute to the conversation and needed to either study more, shut up and listen, or go do something else. Likewise, if we're talking about hate crime laws and someone pipes up with "I've never been assaulted and there are no hate crime laws protecting white men, so obviously nobody else needs them either", I feel just as justified in pointing out that they have no experience with the kind of prejudice those laws are meant to counter and should either read up or shut up. It's not about trying to silence white men, it's about learning about issues your race and gender have kept you from facing firsthand before you shoot your mouth off about them.

I'm not missing that reason at all, and what you say is just an illustration of what I mean. If someone says that racism isn't a problem because they have never experienced racism, they aren't wrong because they are white, they are wrong because they are wrong. Bringing up the fact that they are white is wholly pointless to assessing whether they are correct about the necessity of certain laws or about physics.

On the other hand, presuming someone can't, doesn't or hasn't experienced racism and prejudice because they are white is wrong, it's racist and using their race as a reason to ignore their opinion is discriminatory. And yet not only does this presumption seem to be bandied about as truth, people in actual positions of influence flat out repeat it and use it to diminish any hypocrisy used by those who are supposedly fighting against racism.

Lastly, if someone involves themselves in a public format for discussion, and they are wrong about something, it does way more harm than good to tell them to shut their mouth and go read something. The best use of discussion isn't as some sort of echo chamber where everyone simply agrees and anyone who doesn't is told to shut it. It is best used as a way to engage and converse with those people you feel are wrong and back up your point of view with well reasoned arguments and evidence. Being disdainful of the ignorance of others isn't a good way to eliminate that ignorance, it's a way to make them defensive and shut them down, which gets us nowhere.

 

[Erttheking]

Oh God, I've never prayed to you before, but if you could so just one thing for me... Make this event as glorious as the White Guy Internet Defense Force comic.

Please. It would be so incredible.

And if you do not listen, then to hell with you.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think that's going to happen. The conversations being had here are level headed and polite. It's actually kinda surreal.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Oh God, I've never prayed to you before, but if you could so just one thing for me... Make this event as glorious as the White Guy Internet Defense Force comic.

Please. It would be so incredible.

And if you do not listen, then to hell with you.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I really don't think that's going to happen. The conversations being had here are level headed and polite. It's actually kinda surreal.

You're probably right, although there's already been plenty of silliness, three pages and a warning, so it isn't totally impossible.

Crom could get it done.

 

[Efrath]

This can be a long, interesting read for those that have any form of interest in the SJW phenomenon: http://sjwar.blogspot.se/2014/02/13-how-to-make-social-justice-warrior.html

As for tumblr... Just like any other site, it has its good and bad sides, I personally do enjoy the ask blogs, art blogs as well as some of the humor community has.

However, the SJW crowd is more or less a sect as others have said. It may not have a clear leader but it certainly have similarities to a "real" sect in how SJW are "recruited"(for lack of better word). They may think they have good intention but the bottomline is that it's all about setting oneself on a piedestal and feel better about oneself as well as to feel special.

Keep in mind, most are teenagers or was teenagers when they got into this, it's not exactly uncommon for teenagers to look for a purpose, a place where they feel they belong so I don't really blame the generation but rather teenagers simply being teenagers during an age where sadly something like this existed.

 

[the December King]

White, straight males tend to be supremely ignorant.

I can agree on much of what you said in your post about how people ignore issues that don't directly, or seemingly directly affect them. The single line I quoted from you illustrates exactly the sort of problem Tumblr has though. Can you honestly read that line that you wrote and not see why it's problematic? Just replace "white" with "black" and see how you feel about it. If anyone on here said, "Black males tend to be supremely ignorant," this place would explode with replies to that person about how unbelievably racist they're being.

Well, white, straight males do tend to be supremely ignorant! About issues facing PoC, about issues facing LGBT people, about issues facing girls and women! That's just... that's true! ...right?

I mean most people tend to be ignorant of most everything, but man... especially like, cis people are really ignorant of trans issues! And of course there are no "cis" issues to be ignorant of (if you can think of an injustice befalling the cis community, name one). The "black males tend to be supremely ignorant" would certainly be racist given context, but it depends what we're talking about. Probably it is true that, if we were talking about sexism in the African-American community, "black males tend to be supremely ignorant" would be apt. And in this case, talking about injustice against PoC, LGBT, and the female population... yes, white, straight males tend to be supremely ignorant.

I think the problem here is the implication inherent in 'supremely' ignorant. I don't know alot about what people have to face each day in the LGBT community. But I, a white male, am a relatively rational person who would gladly listen if told about it, and strive to never presume or judge harshly, or in advance of the facts. Nor do I regularly condemn anyone, or sign petitions to block or otherwise marginalize any peoples. My ignorance of the status can be rectified, but since I am not a rich man, nor a lawmaker, nor a politician, nor in any way a deciding factor in the success of the LGBT community achieving parity, then how is it incumbent upon me to rectify this?

Mind you, you did say 'tend', so I suppose your statement would be assumed to naturally have exceptions? I hope so...

I'm sorry, I seem to have taken offence at a blanket statement.

 

[hentropy]

I just think the whole LGBTTQIAAOPPDGNCTSMFKPS movement is still in its infancy, and still has a long way to go before the people inside of the movement truly understand how to parse it all and what the "ideal" might be. Personally I think the whole trans movement in particular is quite confused, a confusion that gets passed down to those who consider themselves trans. The whole movement seeks to simultaneously tear down, but also strengthen and embrace, the western ideas of traditional gender roles.

If a boy wants to play with dolls and wear dresses and grow his hair out because he likes it better, is that boy transgender? Is that boy more of a girl than a boy? Of course not, he's still a boy. We shouldn't teach that boy that the only way he can like those things is if he's really a "girl in a boy's body". That he won't be truly happy in life unless his genitals are "reassigned" (mutilated).

And of course if you're not truly in either one of the feminine/masculine "camps", you're "genderfluid". No, you're a man or woman or maybe intersex (which is pretty much the only situation where sex can be 'chosen', and its usually not chosen by the person themselves), that doesn't change because you choose to be androgynous by traditional standards. Your behavior and the way you choose to dress yourself and look should not be tied to your physical equipment. Wasn't that the point behind this whole movement from the beginning? Sure, I'll call someone a she if that's what they want to be called, it might even be easier for me, but it doesn't mean they are women. And that's not a bad thing. Being a man doesn't mean you have to be like Ron Swanson.

And yet, if I were to declare this opinion in some places like tumblr, all of a sudden I'm an ignorant straight cis white male, even though they don't know anything about me and the idea that at least one of those things aren't true. They've taken this early idea state of gender issues and seem to be militant about it, that it's their "right" to be called a "Xir" by government agencies and businesses. That if you don't agree with them on their (flawed) logic, that you're some sort of culturally sick oppressor. The idea that they are the people who have everything right and everyone else is some kind of cultural enemy.

You know, like Stormfront.

 

[marche45]

Its funny.

Its pretty obvious from past comics that grey and cory are pro feminism from their past comics,but they make a comic making fun of extremists and this happens.

 

[the December King]

I'm thinking of murdering myself right now. No lie. I just... I don't know anymore.

I do hope you are joking, Andy of Comix! For what it's worth, I have appreciated your contributions to the Escapist, value your input, and I think you are in general pretty cool.

And I can totally try at least to sympathize that it can 'seem' like there is a sea of mediocre, ignorant white idiots out there that all act like they are living in bubbles. But it's just not true, many people are reasonable and accepting...

... aaah, crap.

Now I want to live in a bubble. Not a transparent one, though. And I still want air somehow. And food.