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Redryhno

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thaluikhain said:
hentropy said:
Some of it has to do with terminology. Do you think using the "LGBT***+" format is really helpful? I feel like the whole thing may be counterproductive the more letters you tack onto it, and it seems like no matter how many you use you're still leaving someone out or relegating them to the plus sign. I prefer to use the term "GSM", Gender/Sexual Minority, as a catch-all term, and it also doesn't prioritize any group with the ordering.
Ah, but who does GSM actually refer to? If you say "LGBT", that's at least 4 groups (with overlap). GSM can be as wide or as narrow as you want it to be.
Eh, there's enough letters added to the LGBT group that I honestly wouldn't be surprised the stupid part of EA wasn't behind it all. I mean it used to just be called the Queers, no negative connotations for the most part, just a word that encompassed those that weren't like the majority of people around(not that not being like the majority is bad, but hey, gotta clarify half the time anymore). Then it became the LG, then B was added, T, now I think it's all LGBTIQ/LY or something similar. So let's not be silly and just say that it "LGBT" specifies with some overlap, the official thing already casts a gigantic net.

It's sorta needlessly complicated is the main problem I have with it is all. GSM's is something I'm pretty sure I've seen start popping up a bit though, I sorta like it too, easier to remember what it all stands for.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Redryhno said:
Ugh why does this keep coming up? I'll be as brief as possible on this point. Studies indicate that trans people who are unable to transition to a satisfactory level are significantly more likely to have suicidal thoughts, attempt suicide, and succeed in committing suicide. Then there are basic day to day issues that cause massive problems, even post transition, like bathroom and locker room usage just as simple ideas. Finally trans people who are not fully through transition are far more likely to be targeted for abuse, assaults, rape, and murder, than those who have fully transitioned. Being trans is it's own bucket of day to day issues that really do affect daily life. Consider that mental illness is also a disability, trans people often suffer mental illness from abuses they've suffered through out their life.

Physical disabilities can also be a bit of a skewed comparison, because it is horrific that so many medical plans don't cover necessary medical care. Even after the affordable healthcare act here in the US. Especially in the case of your mom who was injured and never given treatment. The other person, with the deformity that prevented his arm from fully forming? Well unfortunately there is no real surgical fix for that, so he's limited to prosthetic, which are usually covered.

Edit: I notice I tend to externalize when I talk trans people being abused... I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's because I've been very fortunate not to have really suffered much abuse for it myself... Hmm. Then again I tend to post when I'm dead tired too, that might have something to do with it.
It may keep coming up because while people may understand that there's mental issues, there's also mental issues that come with being born different in any noticeable way anyways and why they should get special treatment and/or a free pass. Genetics and randomness screw with everyone, and people don't like one group getting attention when the underlying problem for both is the same/similar, but only some that scream(metaphorical) the loudest get added onto the list of fix-its.

Bathrooms I have no problem with, but locker rooms are slightly different, most have no privacy areas unless it's also a bathroom, which most aren't really, and most societies still have problems with nudity. There's some exceptions such as the locker room, and even that's not a clear rule, but you've said that transition may not include GRS, and that you have no interest in it, most people aren't that comfortable being naked around the opposite set of genitals that they either aren't related to or sleep with. And that's not going to go away until we get rid of the nude "problem". But that's just my opinion on alot of the reasons behind it.

Not to mention the multitudes of people that go from a very active and independent lifestyle not being able to adapt to their new one being very dependent(or entirely, as the case may be) on another person or thing to keep them alive in a very restricting manner and the resulting, sometimes inevitable, suicide.
 

Thaluikhain

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Redryhno said:
So let's not be silly and just say that it "LGBT" specifies with some overlap, the official thing already casts a gigantic net.
Those 4 letter specify 3 groups (which can overlap), I meant. Adding more letters adds more groups, of course.

"Queer" isn't very specific at all.

Redryhno said:
It's sorta needlessly complicated is the main problem I have with it is all. GSM's is something I'm pretty sure I've seen start popping up a bit though, I sorta like it too, easier to remember what it all stands for.
Complicated, sure, but I don't agree on needlessly.

For example, there are gay rights activists that hate bisexuals. They'd claim to support the rights of GSMs, but not include bisexuals. They aren't LGBT supporters, so the LGBT descriptor is useful.

Likewise, there are plenty of GSMs who hate trans people.
 

holy_secret

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I was booking a hotelroom for a transgendered woman, yet her name on her credit card and ID was male. I had to add a gender for the guest and got a bit stumped. I chose to put in female.

Once it was all done I told my boss about it, and she flipped out. Apparently I should have added the gender stated on her ID.

I am still confused now as to what I should have done.
Just needed to vent a bit. Thanks for listening
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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holy_secret said:
I was booking a hotelroom for a transgendered woman, yet her name on her credit card and ID was male. I had to add a gender for the guest and got a bit stumped. I chose to put in female.

Once it was all done I told my boss about it, and she flipped out. Apparently I should have added the gender stated on her ID.

I am still confused now as to what I should have done.
Just needed to vent a bit. Thanks for listening
Yeah, this is an exceptionally confusing part. For trans people it's much simpler for us to be able to work in these situations as our presented gender. From a legal standpoint this can be a legally grey area. Partially due to it could be counted as fraud in the legal sense. Though you could always say it was just a clerical error I suppose.

I really wish we could get past this kind of bias. But some people on the anti-trans side scream bloody murder every single time we get the slightest bit of kind treatment. Which really sucks because this applies to people who aren't actually actively anti-trans, but simply ignorant of our situation, when they agree with the anti-trans side, just because they don't understand.
 

Poetic Nova

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Ugh why does this keep coming up? I'll be as brief as possible on this point. Studies indicate that trans people who are unable to transition to a satisfactory level are significantly more likely to have suicidal thoughts, attempt suicide, and succeed in committing suicide. Then there are basic day to day issues that cause massive problems, even post transition, like bathroom and locker room usage just as simple ideas. Finally trans people who are not fully through transition are far more likely to be targeted for abuse, assaults, rape, and murder, than those who have fully transitioned. Being trans is it's own bucket of day to day issues that really do affect daily life. Consider that mental illness is also a disability, trans people often suffer mental illness from abuses they've suffered through out their life.

Physical disabilities can also be a bit of a skewed comparison, because it is horrific that so many medical plans don't cover necessary medical care. Even after the affordable healthcare act here in the US. Especially in the case of your mom who was injured and never given treatment. The other person, with the deformity that prevented his arm from fully forming? Well unfortunately there is no real surgical fix for that, so he's limited to prosthetic, which are usually covered.
Since Redryhno quoted me about this in the first place, do allow me to say that I agree on this.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
The simple answer is that pansexuality means that gender has no bearing on weather or not you love someone. You can be attracted to a person no matter what their sex or gender identity, the attraction instead from falling in love with that person emotionally first.
And you've answered this better than I most likely ever could.
 

Loonyyy

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Ishal said:
Loonyyy said:
Taekwondo has a lot of useful kicks, which can be good, they're a way in a punch up to really level the playing field, but the kicks aren't so good if someone goes in close, or wants to fight on the ground. A lot of big guys will abuse their size to easily win fights by going in under and just knocking people down (I discovered this trick after I got a lot taller, it's ridiculous.). But, with the right leverage, you can learn to do the same thing to someone who weighs more than you. I knew a lot of very badass girls at mine who could kick you in the head seventeen different ways, it's all down to how you can use these things. A lot of the MMA terminology really helps for understanding it, I find.
As someone who is 5'6" the size thing is something I've had to deal with my whole life. Sucks.

When I took Karate and a bit of Taekwondo I was taught to counter it a little bit, but not all that much. I wanted to learn Judo and more take down stuff but they closed the local dojo. That combined with my parents moving up in the company they worked at meant they couldn't take me anywhere else, no time.

It really sucks just being taken to the ground by someone bigger. Quite infuriating. When I get my proper job after grad school I'm going to start taking classes again. Akido or Judo sounds pretty good right now. All the UFC kids at my undergrand would always go on about the Gracie Jiu Jitsu stuff. Is that really as good as everyone says it is?
I've never done any Jiu Jitsu, but we did a bit of a mix at my TaeKwonDo club, and integrated other techniques, particularly in self defense. For instance, while if you're smaller, a straight tackle is out of the question, but if someone swings at you, and you duck under their arm, you can run in, and get behind them, and with the right positioning of your arm on their torso, and lean, you can yank someone up and off their feet, and into a drag, at which point, they can't use their legs for easy leverage, so long as you keep moving back. There are other techniques like wrist locks, which, with a minimum exertion, you can freeze up an entire limb. There's a lot of kicks, and used correctly, allow you to keep people at a distance, but also strike really hard. And sparring for sport can be a lot of fun.

The big distinction that MMA really introduced that I found useful, from a very brief contact, is this way of classifying fighting styles, up close, on the ground, kicks vs hand strikes, etc. It can really help to work out what you're looking for.
 

Dark Knifer

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PaulH said:
I dunno if I will get the chance to read that, but I'm definitely considering it. Your point about body and mind I find the most interesting because that's the point I had the most confusion about. I know very few trans people in real life so my main source of what the experience is like is through the internet and many had told me the body is not important, it's the mind.

To me this issue included both body and mind and that's what had me confused. I'm going to do further research but I will say that what you wrote has been some of the most informative thoughts on the subject.

I'll be sure to send you messages in future if I want some clarification.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Dark Knifer said:
PaulH said:
I dunno if I will get the chance to read that, but I'm definitely considering it. Your point about body and mind I find the most interesting because that's the point I had the most confusion about. I know very few trans people in real life so my main source of what the experience is like is through the internet and many had told me the body is not important, it's the mind.

To me this issue included both body and mind and that's what had me confused. I'm going to do further research but I will say that what you wrote has been some of the most informative thoughts on the subject.

I'll be sure to send you messages in future if I want some clarification.
It is really quite interesting because not everyone is the same within the broader sphere of transgender as a whole, the unfortunate part is that it can become maddeningly complicated. Some times the body isn't the problem, it's just the limit society has on ways people express them self as the gender the identify with versus the one they're born. Sometimes it's a full mind and body problem that is so extensive it requires every method of transition available. We're all individuals trans or not. So if you're not satisfied entirely, or just want some more views on the subject I'm happy to help too.
 

Dark Knifer

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
That's a bit of an interesting question in itself. Would trans exist if society allowed for a broader spectrum of expression and being?
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Dark Knifer said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
That's a bit of an interesting question in itself. Would trans exist if society allowed for a broader spectrum of expression and being?
That's a fantastic question, but I don't think I have a definitive answer for it. To my mind I think trans would to some extent, as I have have transitioned quite a bit physically. Not everyone is comfortable with the way their body is, and not every trans person is uncomfortable with their body. I think many people would transition still, and there would probably be the same classifications that we have in the trans spectrum. But at the very least there would be a lot less trouble with people being themselves.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Dark Knifer said:
PaulH said:
I dunno if I will get the chance to read that, but I'm definitely considering it. Your point about body and mind I find the most interesting because that's the point I had the most confusion about. I know very few trans people in real life so my main source of what the experience is like is through the internet and many had told me the body is not important, it's the mind.

To me this issue included both body and mind and that's what had me confused. I'm going to do further research but I will say that what you wrote has been some of the most informative thoughts on the subject.

I'll be sure to send you messages in future if I want some clarification.
It is really quite interesting because not everyone is the same within the broader sphere of transgender as a whole, the unfortunate part is that it can become maddeningly complicated. Some times the body isn't the problem, it's just the limit society has on ways people express them self as the gender the identify with versus the one they're born. Sometimes it's a full mind and body problem that is so extensive it requires every method of transition available. We're all individuals trans or not. So if you're not satisfied entirely, or just want some more views on the subject I'm happy to help too.
Most of us still fall predominantly under the blue, pink, white, pink and blue, though. Well, I'm genderqueer, but the prominent transgender pride flag appeals to me more. It's a pretty flag, I also find the philosophy of it positive. The central premise of however it is held, it's always correct ... free of doubt and lacking the means to display distress as there is no upside down means to display of it. So it's a pretty potent symbol if worn. Given that it's a statement of being both out, and correct in their self image and their expression. That's also a thing to note, that whilst a lot of people fall as 'trans', they can be worlds apart. Humans are (rightfully) chaotic.

That being said, some people don't mind being grouped trans if they are genderqueer. I personally prefer it -- aesthetics of the flag aside. Regardless it's a pretty impressive collection of identities and they all have different philosophical bases they represent. But, yeah ... as Kyuubi puts it it is pretty large... but all of them correspond to a philosophical premise within existential identification of self. Though the reason why there is a large number of popularised flags concerning gender is primarily due to a whole lot of people hold different opinions of self.

It's like philosophy, only with colours and lack thereof.

But yeah, bit confusing.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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PaulH said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Dark Knifer said:
PaulH said:
snip
It is really quite interesting because not everyone is the same within the broader sphere of transgender as a whole, the unfortunate part is that it can become maddeningly complicated. Some times the body isn't the problem, it's just the limit society has on ways people express them self as the gender the identify with versus the one they're born. Sometimes it's a full mind and body problem that is so extensive it requires every method of transition available. We're all individuals trans or not. So if you're not satisfied entirely, or just want some more views on the subject I'm happy to help too.
Most of us still fall predominantly under the blue, pink, white, pink and blue, though. Well, I'm genderqueer, but the prominent transgender pride flag appeals to me more. It's a pretty flag, I also find the philosophy of it positive. The central premise of however it is held, it's always correct ... free of doubt and lacking the means to display distress as there is no upside down means to display of it. So it's a pretty potent symbol if worn. Given that it's a statement of being both out, and correct in their self image and their expression. That's also a thing to note, that whilst a lot of people fall as 'trans', they can be worlds apart. Humans are (rightfully) chaotic.

That being said, some people don't mind being grouped trans if they are genderqueer. I personally prefer it -- aesthetics of the flag aside. Regardless it's a pretty impressive collection of identities and they all have different philosophical bases they represent. But, yeah ... as Kyuubi puts it it is pretty large... but all of them correspond to a philosophical premise within existential identification of self. Though the reason why there is a large number of popularised flags concerning gender is primarily due to a whole lot of people hold different opinions of self.

It's like philosophy, only with colours and lack thereof.

But yeah, bit confusing.
A lot of terms also cover a surprising amount overlap, in it's own way it can be amazingly inclusive even if you look at people who are cis. By that I mean most cisgender people have, to some extent, a kind of personal gender fluidity, at least in my experience, they may not identify as any type of trans, but I've never really met anyone who strictly followed all the social concepts of their birth gender. I also find that transgenderism for all it's flaws and mistreatment is also very liberating, as trans I'm free to define my self. I

Sometimes though the overlap can be a little confusing for me on an existential level. For a long while I wasn't exactly where I fell within the spectrum of transgender, despite knowing how I wanted to present and be. Sometimes I still find it hard to accurately place myself fully.
 

hentropy

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thaluikhain said:
Ah, but who does GSM actually refer to? If you say "LGBT", that's at least 4 groups (with overlap). GSM can be as wide or as narrow as you want it to be.
That's sort of the point? It doesn't necessarily exclude any one group. I can see the advantage of using LGBT in the media or in front of other audiences so they know the range of things you're talking about, I just think GSM is a term that can be used more internally as not to leave people out. The only criticism I can see is that certain groups who are into illegal sexual activity might try to adopt it as well, but no one really takes those groups seriously as it is. They could easily start affixing their own letters to "LGBT" just as easily.



KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Some people have taken to using LGBTIQ anymore and that covers Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex, and Queer. It's a bit weird but as it is there it actually makes the best catchall I've seen so far, as the final part, Queer covers everyone who doesn't fall in to other listed groups. Still I don't really approve of it much as a lump term because it's also supposed to cover the whole community it's supposed to fit, and we're anything but unified. I've actually encountered more gay men and lesbian women who are less accepting of trans than most other people I end up getting outed to. Also as far as bisexual and other sexuality groups, too many gay and lesbian people have given me the line of; "you're either gay, straight, or lying." So I have mixed feelings on the whole thing.
As someone who is a panromantic asexual, I'm not sure if I like the idea of being grouped in as "queer". As far as I know, pansexuality and asexuality are both as legitimate classifications as LGB. It is a matter of sweating the nomenclature, but it can send the message that these others aren't real even by LGBT standards. There's usually also a letter for "Questioning", meaning the acronym starts to grow to LGBTQQIAP, and that starts to become unwieldy, and it still isn't really covering everyone that could be covered.

At a certain point I just think the format becomes more of a liability as it becomes longer, and more open to ridicule (LGBTBBQ is a common meme).

And yeah, if you plan on spending time with various other members of the GSM community, you have to be ready for the fact that even they can be uninformed or even bigoted. A cis gay or lesbian can no more understand a transgender person in a lot of situations than a cishet person. And as an asexual, I can certainly identify with the idea of people not believing you.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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hentropy said:
thaluikhain said:
Ah, but who does GSM actually refer to? If you say "LGBT", that's at least 4 groups (with overlap). GSM can be as wide or as narrow as you want it to be.
That's sort of the point? It doesn't necessarily exclude any one group. I can see the advantage of using LGBT in the media or in front of other audiences so they know the range of things you're talking about, I just think GSM is a term that can be used more internally as not to leave people out. The only criticism I can see is that certain groups who are into illegal sexual activity might try to adopt it as well, but no one really takes those groups seriously as it is. They could easily start affixing their own letters to "LGBT" just as easily.



KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Some people have taken to using LGBTIQ anymore and that covers Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex, and Queer. It's a bit weird but as it is there it actually makes the best catchall I've seen so far, as the final part, Queer covers everyone who doesn't fall in to other listed groups. Still I don't really approve of it much as a lump term because it's also supposed to cover the whole community it's supposed to fit, and we're anything but unified. I've actually encountered more gay men and lesbian women who are less accepting of trans than most other people I end up getting outed to. Also as far as bisexual and other sexuality groups, too many gay and lesbian people have given me the line of; "you're either gay, straight, or lying." So I have mixed feelings on the whole thing.
As someone who is a panromantic asexual, I'm not sure if I like the idea of being grouped in as "queer". As far as I know, pansexuality and asexuality are both as legitimate classifications as LGB. It is a matter of sweating the nomenclature, but it can send the message that these others aren't real even by LGBT standards. There's usually also a letter for "Questioning", meaning the acronym starts to grow to LGBTQQIAP, and that starts to become unwieldy, and it still isn't really covering everyone that could be covered.

At a certain point I just think the format becomes more of a liability as it becomes longer, and more open to ridicule (LGBTBBQ is a common meme).

And yeah, if you plan on spending time with various other members of the GSM community, you have to be ready for the fact that even they can be uninformed or even bigoted. A cis gay or lesbian can no more understand a transgender person in a lot of situations than a cishet person. And as an asexual, I can certainly identify with the idea of people not believing you.
Actually you make some really good points. I kinda hope GSM does catch on, it's really quite easy to work with.

Also panromantic asexual, five seconds of research and boom, perfect explanation for my orientation. Why didn't this realization come sooner? Thank you for bringing that up! Also good god I'm not as well versed as I could be in GSM terms.

But that aside a major thing I think is the whole LGBT/etc term is actually becoming a liability. Even in that state it's become something of a dirty four letter word, usually associated with a perception of entitlement. Which boggles my mind. Wanting equal rights is an entitlement? I think not.

As for exclusionary, ignorant, or purely bigoted in the GSM community as a whole. I've also met trans people who refuse to accept anyone is trans if they're not going for full GRS transition, or/and not straight compare to their target gender. Which doesn't surprise me, at least not anymore, it just saddens me deeply.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
A lot of terms also cover a surprising amount overlap, in it's own way it can be amazingly inclusive even if you look at people who are cis. By that I mean most cisgender people have, to some extent, a kind of personal gender fluidity, at least in my experience, they may not identify as any type of trans, but I've never really met anyone who strictly followed all the social concepts of their birth gender. I also find that transgenderism for all it's flaws and mistreatment is also very liberating, as trans I'm free to define my self.
Oh yeah! I mean ... well. I think the difference remains in directive of agency. If there is one big criticism of Kierkegaard that I have when it comes to and otherwise pretty good example of the existential crisis that one has when pursuing the idea of transition. Moving from a state that produces despair into one that does not, is that it necessarily has to follow the will of the actor as opposed to perhaps experimentation by the actor. I still place faith on experimentation to begin with if you have questions relative to self. Primarily because there's not one ubiquitous despair that impels all counter activity to begin with ... so pretending there is one state by which will alone may achieve, it's better to assume that the self can sometimes not understand it's own passage from despair to liberation of despair.

I think most cis people in the West experiment at one point or another, but for the grand majority this just represents an immersal in tropes and temporary charicatures of manhood or womanhood. When it becomes something that is necessary to alleviate despair, that's kind of when I might ask whether someone might actually be in some way genderqueer.

But yeah, it is liberating. Which is why I place Kierkegaard's central premise of; "It is of ultimate merit to be able to despair..." at the forefront. When operating from this position and platform, we begin to see experimentation of self impelled by a knowledge of divorce from mind and body, or mind from perception of body, as something beyond a simple idea of gender portrayal and aspects of being true to one's gender. Despair is the ultimate transformative agent. Which is why I sort of challenge the idea that if in an ideal society, merely taking a drug that drugs away being trans is ethically found wanting in merely allowing the self to be transformed by core questions relative to self and self-construction.

I know plenty of trans who have opted for visibility rather than stealth, primarily because just being able to wave a transgender pride flag, or be able to express elements of self freely with others, touches upon the necessity of validation and the pursuit of true connections with other people without having to hold anything back. I'm not saying which path someone should take, and it certainly depends on that what you wish to be your own self, and it is certainly relevant to just how dangerous it is to be open in your community.

That being said, I operate at a disadvantage towards ever being able to go stealth (Seriously, if you are genderqueer and you manage to juggle two or three (or more) seperate gender expressions without any people mixing up between two or more and people never knowing, you're CIA spy material), and so natural biases arise. I still identify as genderqueer rather than as a trans woman, despite spending most of my time presenting as a woman. I have friends who have met one aspect of me, and others who have met another side of me, and a lot of the time the two rarely intermingle. Which is perhaps why I don't go into facebook or twitter, mainly because I'd probably need to create two accounts.

But at the same time, it's kind of imperative that I'm open with people on both sides of the fence. That being said, I've been thinking more and more about what I would be if I just went full time trans woman and was done with it? It's ... pretty confusing to be honest, so being out helps to say; "Well there's reasons."

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Sometimes though the overlap can be a little confusing for me on an existential level. For a long while I wasn't exactly where I fell within the spectrum of transgender, despite knowing how I wanted to present and be. Sometimes I still find it hard to accurately place myself fully.
I think all people sort of feel that way. I see it less as a problem, and more a case of artistic expression. Whilst it might hurt to be confused babout what will make you happier, ultimately you wouldn't be you if you never cared in the first place. I See it as a journey more so. But I get where you're coming from. A lot of trans people feel the same way, which is why I think the overlaps in the gender umbrellas is there a lot of the time.

If I do end up just going full time one way or another, I'll still be trans however, regardless of most of the stuff before hand. So I think it helps to have overlap. It makes it easier to organise and find other people who you might seek counselling from. Like an older trans person who's been through all that same stuff as you. It's nice ... It's like a collegiate of sororities (or fraternities if you happen to be on the other side of the fence) rather than a singular entity, indivisible. And I take comfort that the philosophies are different, but close enough to still have the overriding message of liberty of self and self-expression.

But yeah, I for one empathise completely. But from reading other stuff you've posted, you sound way more sure of yourself than I did when I first came out. I was still sure of what I wanted however, but I wasn't sure where that direction would take me. I say if you're able to ride the wave of self-expression, ride it. Own that wave as you would own any other aspect of yourself.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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PaulH said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
A lot of terms also cover a surprising amount overlap, in it's own way it can be amazingly inclusive even if you look at people who are cis. By that I mean most cisgender people have, to some extent, a kind of personal gender fluidity, at least in my experience, they may not identify as any type of trans, but I've never really met anyone who strictly followed all the social concepts of their birth gender. I also find that transgenderism for all it's flaws and mistreatment is also very liberating, as trans I'm free to define my self.
Oh yeah! I mean ... well. I think the difference remains in directive of agency. If there is one big criticism of Kierkegaard that I have when it comes to and otherwise pretty good example of the existential crisis that one has when pursuing the idea of transition. Moving from a state that produces despair into one that does not, is that it necessarily has to follow the will of the actor as opposed to perhaps experimentation by the actor. I still place faith on experimentation to begin with if you have questions relative to self. Primarily because there's not one ubiquitous despair that impels all counter activity to begin with ... so pretending there is one state by which will alone may achieve, it's better to assume that the self can sometimes not understand it's own passage from despair to liberation of despair.

I think most cis people in the West experiment at one point or another, but for the grand majority this just represents an immersal in tropes and temporary charicatures of manhood or womanhood. When it becomes something that is necessary to alleviate despair, that's kind of when I might ask whether someone might actually be in some way genderqueer.

But yeah, it is liberating. Which is why I place Kierkegaard's central premise of; "It is of ultimate merit to be able to despair..." at the forefront. When operating from this position and platform, we begin to see experimentation of self impelled by a knowledge of divorce from mind and body, or mind from perception of body, as something beyond a simple idea of gender portrayal and aspects of being true to one's gender. Despair is the ultimate transformative agent. WHich is why I sort of challenge the idea that if in an ideal society, merely taking a drug that drugs away being trans is ethically found wanting in merely allowing the self to be transformed by core questions relative to self and self-construction.

I know plenty of trans who have opted for visibility rather than stealth, primarily because just being able to wave a transgender pride flag, or be able to express elements of self freely with others, touches upon the necessity of validation and the pursuit of true connections with other people without having to hold anything back. I'm not saying which path someone should take, and it certainly depends on that what you wish to be your own self, and it is certainly relevant to just how dangerous it is to be open in your community.

That being said, I operate at a disadvantage towards ever being able to go stealth (Seriously, if you are genderqueer and you manage to juggle two or three (or more) seperate gender expressions without any people mixing up between two or more and people never knowing, you're CIA spy material), and so natural biases arise. I still identify as genderqueer rather than as a trans woman, despite speding most of my time presenting as a woman. I have friends who have met one aspect of me, and others who have met another side of me, and a lot of the time the two rarely intermingle. Which is perhaps why I don't go into facebook or twitter, mainly because I'd probably need to create two accounts.

But at the same time, it's kind of imperative that I'm open with people on both sides of the fence. That being said, I've been thinking more and more about what I would be if I just went full time trans woman and was done with it? It's ... pretty confusing to be honest, so being out helps to say; "Well there's reasons."

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Sometimes though the overlap can be a little confusing for me on an existential level. For a long while I wasn't exactly where I fell within the spectrum of transgender, despite knowing how I wanted to present and be. Sometimes I still find it hard to accurately place myself fully.
I think all people sort of feel that way. I see it less as a problem, and more a case of artistic expression. Whilst it might hurt to be confused babout what will make you happier, ultimately you wouldn't be you if you never cared in the first place. I See it as a journey more so. But I get where you're coming from. A lot of trans people feelt the same way, which is why I think the overlaps in the gender umbrellas is there a lot of the time.

If I do end up just going full time one way or another, I'll still be trans however, regardless of mst of the stuff before hand. So I think it helps to have overlap. It makes it easier to organise and find other people who your might seek counselling from. Like an older trans person who's been through all that same stuff as you. It's nice ... It's like a collegiate of sororities rather than a singular entity, indivisible. And I take comfort that the philosophies are different, but close enough, to still have the overriding message of liberty of self and self-expression.

But yeah, I for one empathise completely. But from reading other stuff you've posted, you sound way more sure of yourself than I did when I first came out.
Well there's not a single point in there that I can disagree with. They're all very well laid out, also pretty much exactly how I feel, and I couldn't have said it any better. Probably wouldn't have either.

As for when I first came out on the other hand I was in a deep state of flux. I couldn't get much deeper than the fact in most all respects I'm more woman than man. I was also pretty young at the time, which caused entirely different crises for my parents and extended family. I also had a rather counter productive time later on in my teens, as most trans people I managed to meet for advice were rather strict in their definition of trans. That being that you either get the full package HRT and GRS including bottom surgery, or you're not trans. It was really counter productive to how I could identify, especially after research about MtF vaginoplasty, and realizing that it might not be for me. Luckily the therapist I had access to was far more open minded, and more highly versed in the subject.

Edit: had to clarify a point.
 

Gluzzbung

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Okay, genuine question: What is/is there such a thing as, a person who is "transfluid"?

There's a person at my university, whom I haven't met, who apparently identifies as transfluid, which he takes to mean being whatever gender he damn well likes at the time. I say "he" mainly for simplicity's sake in this. Apparently, if you don't use genderless pronouns, or if he's deciding that he's a girl that day and you use "he" around him, or vice versa, he'll get really annoyed and irritated, and it's basically pushed anyone who remotely liked him away because he just comes off as obtuse. Given that people accept that transgender people do actually exist (and they do, obviously) then there are 4 genders as of this moment, male, female, transman, transwoman. Surely there can't be such a thing as transfluid because it implies that you yourself do not possess a gender, and thus it defeats its own argument as you can't be transfluid, which is a gender, but transfluid means that you don't have a defined gender.

Also, just thought, why do a lot of (at least, those whom I have been exposed to) trans women (someone who identifies as a woman, to clarify mostly for my own sake) feel the need to wear lots of makeup and wear dresses and such? Surely, by the logic that gender and gender roles are a social construct, then what people should wear in accordance to their gender is too? It's hypocritical, and while I understand that women, more often than men, wear dresses and makeup, it's not some rule your have to adhere to.

I understand that both those questions are very leading, what with my opinion underneath, but, to the first one especially (probably the harder of the two to answer) I would really like an answer.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Well there's not a single point in there that I can disagree with. They're all very well laid out, also pretty much exactly how I feel, and I couldn't have said it any better. Probably wouldn't have either.

As for when I first came out on the other hand I was in a deep state of flux. I couldn't get much deeper than the fact in most all respects I'm more woman than man. I was also pretty young at the time, which caused entirely different crises for my parents and extended family. I also had a rather counter productive time later on in my teens, as most trans people I managed to meet for advice were rather strict in their definition of trans. That being that you either get the full package HRT and GRS including bottom surgery, or you're not trans. It was really counter productive to how I could identify, especially after research about MtF vaginoplasty, and realizing that it might not be for me. Luckily the therapist I had access to was far more open minded, and more highly versed in the subject.

Edit: had to clarify a point.
Yeah ... unlike therapists in mainstream services of psychological health, gender identity counsellors are (usually) SO MUCH better. Emphasis necessary. And in general problems also, I mean ... They helped me get back on my feet after a pretty rough series of problems. I wouldn't have finished school without their help. I certainly wouldn't have had a fairly successful pursuit of academia.

Ehhh ... yeah, I hate when people tell you what does and does not constitute what you yourself see your self as being. Not only that, but it's unnecessarily elitest. Not every trans woman can afford it, much less have even a stable job to be able to raise the monies necessary in the first place. I've also met the flipside, though. Like I had a friend who (quite politely, in this case) say to me; "If you're getting an orchi and taking 'mones ... aren't you then trans rather than GQ?" And to be fair that's a somewhat valid point given that I don't really associate much with her as a boy ... so from their perspective of meeting me, it's entirely accurate. They have no reason but to see me as trans. If that side of me is largely all they know (and it is) then it's a valid assessment by definition of self they would be familiar with.

But as much empathy I have for that side of the argument, the idea of 'SRS or bust' is cruel and deleterious to the existential argument of being transgender to begin with.

For example; All women are women ... all women elect that their womanhood will be worn as self ...

That doesn't work with the SRS or not trans argument. "Trans women are women." >>> "So I'm a woman?" >>> "Only if you have SRS." >>> "Therefore all women may not be women?" >>> "No, that not all women are trans." >>> "Therefore some women were men and decided as men to be women?" >>> "No, they ... hmmmm." Not only that, it (unhealthily) plays into the hands of certain feminists who seem far more vocal against trans people than others. You can't have ownership of manhood if you do not choose to own it.

And it's certainly not a message I would think they, nor others in the trans community, should be promoting. So it just sounds to me like a needless class division between those that can afford AND want SRS, and those that can't or don't.

(Edited for clarity)
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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Gluzzbung said:
Okay, genuine question: What is/is there such a thing as, a person who is "transfluid"?

There's a person at my university, whom I haven't met, who apparently identifies as transfluid, which he takes to mean being whatever gender he damn well likes at the time. I say "he" mainly for simplicity's sake in this. Apparently, if you don't use genderless pronouns, or if he's deciding that he's a girl that day and you use "he" around him, or vice versa, he'll get really annoyed and irritated, and it's basically pushed anyone who remotely liked him away because he just comes off as obtuse. Given that people accept that transgender people do actually exist (and they do, obviously) then there are 4 genders as of this moment, male, female, transman, transwoman. Surely there can't be such a thing as transfluid because it implies that you yourself do not possess a gender, and thus it defeats its own argument as you can't be transfluid, which is a gender, but transfluid means that you don't have a defined gender.
Well Genderfluid and genderqueer are actually valid gender identites. Genderfluid people have their gender identity vary on them no almost what seems like a whim, it's not though, it's just how their brain chemistry works with them. Genderqueer can be genderfluid, but at the same time they're just variable with their gender identity more on the basis of not being exclusively gendered one way. While they're similar as I see it most genderfluid people don't choose how they present at any given time, though usually they stay in one mode a day or more. Genderqueer on the other hand are more of the mind that gender rules are mostly arbitrary and they will present how they feel or how they want to be perceived, which may vary person to person, but they value gender neutrality as part of how they define gender. Neither is wrong mind you and I know it's to give this person the benefit of the doubt on this, I know it's frustrating, but imagine how they feel. Especially being isolated because no one understands them, if they're pleasant enough, but get irritated when you misgender them at any given time just say: "Oops sorry, I don't have the easiest time getting my head around this." At which point respect their wishes and use the correct pronouns for the time. Also you could always ask them when you see them what "mode" they're in the time to avoid frustration on either side. I know it's going out of your way, but with genderfluid people it's the usually path of least resistance.

Also in the transgender spectrum there are more than 4 genders. The 4 you mentioned are there already. You've also got agender, people who don't identify with gender period, bigender, people who identify as both genders at the same time, genderfluid, genderqueer, and others. Go here and check out the identities it'll be a helpful starting place:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

Gluzzbung said:
Also, just thought, why do a lot of (at least, those whom I have been exposed to) trans women (someone who identifies as a woman, to clarify mostly for my own sake) feel the need to wear lots of makeup and wear dresses and such? Surely, by the logic that gender and gender roles are a social construct, then what people should wear in accordance to their gender is too? It's hypocritical, and while I understand that women, more often than men, wear dresses and makeup, it's not some rule your have to adhere to.

I understand that both those questions are very leading, what with my opinion underneath, but, to the first one especially (probably the harder of the two to answer) I would really like an answer.
That question you got there is actually a really important one. Because a lot of transgender people, especially transwomen are forced to conform to the stereotypes of their birth gender, which can often cause a great deal of attachment to the stereotypes of the gender their brains tell them they are. That means they'll delve in to being as much that gender as they possibly can, because it was denied to them, they'll basically fully own it. Also as a transwoman who is super girly girl in presentation, I can tell you it's not the only reason. For me I'm comfortable skirts, dresses, clothing that is super feminine in general, make up. Aside from comfort I like wearing things that appeal to my fashion sense, that I find to be really pretty, cute, or flattering, and it's part of how I identify in the feminine context within myself. I know plenty of transwomen who are tomboys too, it's what they like, how they're comfortable, and how they define femininity. So it's basically just what makes you comfortable, what fits your ideals and identity, and what you find attractive for your self to wear. Essentially all the same reasons as any other woman dresses the way she does.

The questions are leading, but honest, and being honest in how you're curious about the subject is a good thing. It helps to foster a better understanding, in no small part because you'll get honest answers back. My answers are of course my opinion and to the best of my personal understanding, so other trans people may have a different stance. But I think I'm pretty close to the general consensus.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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Snowfox_ said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Snowfox_ said:
Some college survey I think, tried looking for it. Not in my history. Also couldn't give a shit less what twain had to say.
A College survey? Not a study, but a survey? That's hardly compelling evidence, especially with no source, essentially making the statement about the statistic totally irrelevant. To put it mildly, if someone presented most transgender people with a survey asking if they were trans, or gender dysphoric, I doubt you get an honest answer. That would be outing yourself for a trans person and as we've established; being outed can be extremely dangerous.
Not a survey, I get words mixed up, it was specifically a study that I think was done by the division of a govt or a college, can't remember. My point is that giving people any cosmetic/luxury surgery/drugs in an age that they can't make decisions, and may not even be sure of the decision they make, is an absolutely stupid idea, on so many levels for a multitude of reasons. Also fuck the mods for giving me an arbitrary warning with no elaboration, and no reply button.
To an extent I agree that before you can make decisions in any rational manner you shouldn't have any surgical treatment, hormones, or drugs to attempt to address gender dysphoria. That being said this age range usually applies to kids who haven't hit puberty, during this time basically everyone is still in a formative process even where gender identity is. I had gender dysphoria problems as far back as I remember, but if I started permanent physical transition then, I probably would have done far more damage than anything else. However I started unusually young on hormones, but after puberty hit(16), because at that point my gender dysphoria was getting to the point where avoiding transition in a physical sense was starting to destroy me. At that point I could make a choice in the matter, because it was obvious that things weren't right, and it was tearing me apart inside.

Now to the point that most people are free of gender dysphoria by young adult hood, when it was expressed earlier in life? I have issues with that, partially because people who display gender dysphoria young get it crushed by their families who freak out about it, thus begin to repress it and try to conform. These people can go through a majority of their life suppressing their gender identity, and come out in their late 20's, 30's, 40's, and later. That's a late transition, often times after they got married and/or had a family. They looked normal, acted normal, told everyone they were normal, but in reality they were dying inside because of suppressing a really important part of their identity.

Also a lot of children who get a gender dysphoria diagnosis, are actually not gender dysphoric, they're children, they're developing, and they're testing the world around them still. A lot of mental health professionals will automatically label them gender dysphoric at the drop of a hat due to personal bias, political leanings, or just plain old fashioned ignorance. When it could be a phase for the child, as most children will break the gender rules at some point in play, as they learn the world, it's rules, and the people around them. Some continue to break gender rules not out of pure gender dysphoria, or because they have a not cisgender in their true identity, but simply because they have a broader definition of their gender identity than is commonly accepted.

So to my mind the study is rather bogus on the face. Too many are repressed and lie, too many never had the issue to start, and too many aren't dysphoric but do have broader gender rules. I hope that clears the air.