Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I do have a question actually... given studies like the one mentioned, given parents and therapists with agendas, but ALSO given people with the full spectrum of gender-identities... how do you learn to distinguish without immense experience? It seems like interrogating everyone who tries to claim their rights would be a little harsh, but simply accepting every claim without resistance leads to absurd extremes.

When it comes to something as personal and potentially private as gender... how exactly does a random person in life deal with all of it? Well... short of staying extremely agnostic and on the side-lines, but that seems like it would only ever benefit extremists. For my part, my stance is that I'll treat someone however they want to be treated, as sincerely as I can, and try to stay the hell out of the politics and constantly shifting sands beyond.

Well when it comes to therapists, finding one that specializes in transgender patients is important, but more important is one that listens. A good therapist will always listen to you first, and ask questions where applicable, this is especially important when dealing with gender dysphoric patients. More often than not something intrinsically seems wrong to a transgender person with having to conform to their birth sex's rules and roles. It's essentially a situation where everything in your mind and personality says that your body and the ways you're expected t to act are wrong. Where a transgender person goes from there is entirely up to them, no therapist worth their diploma will ever demand or deny treatment. When it comes to a transgender person we know already that something is wrong, so what comes next is research and seeking help and understanding. Therapists play one of the most important roles, so having a judgemental one will automatically invalidate any trust, that means finding a new therapist. The important factor is getting a psychiatrist or psychologist whom you can trust and open up to, once you do that and share actual life experiences, they'll share their their thoughts, and ask how it lines up with you. This may sound vague, but to transition you need a trained professional to sign off on it, and they need to respect your wishes.

Dealing with all of it huh? Well from the perspective of a transgender person, it can take research, or it can be instantly apparent on a deep personal level where you stand. From the prespective of a non-trangender(cisgender) person, it depends on how close you are to a transgender person, and how open they are. If you have a trans friend for example, and they came out to you, but are stealth other wise, talk to them, and more importantly listen to what they have to say. Each trans person is different, just like any other person, and if you respect them and try to understand what they tell you, you'll get a lot of insight. When a trans person is uncomfortable diving into details, then don't press the matter, especially if they're your friend. In the case of strangers, it's important to take it as not being any of your business, and not making a big deal about it, but if they approach you, then you let them lead, rather than pressure.

I'm not sure if I gave an adequate answer here. I might have misunderstood what you're trying to ask so if you're unsatisfied, or want more details in a specific area, feel free to ask.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

Gender is genetic.
Genetics plays a huge role in the sex development of people. That said not everyone is born with physical parts their genes suggest. For example I have "XX Male Syndrome" which means I am genetically female, but I was born male physically. Some women have XY chromosomes, more surprising is some people have more chromosomes for sex than others. Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome. But that doesn't define how we identify. We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example. While physical birth sex is often genetic, it doesn't control identity, or sexual preference for that matter.

Uhh, can you provide proof of this?
Because I'm quite sure that's not how genetics works.

Genetics Student here to help.

So geneticists have found the sex determining region of the Y chromosome (which we in the field like to call "the sex determining region of the Y chromosome" or SRY coz we're creative like that). However in some very rare cases the SRY can be moved to the X chromosome by nonhomologous recombination, where pieces of DNA are swapped unevenly between chromosomes, which means that there is the testis-determining factor (TDF) signal from an X chromosome rather than a Y chromosome like in most males. This means that the XX individuals can develop as males despite not having a Y chromosome. Likewise someone with XY could have lost the SRY and develop as female. I believe these individuals are infertile but I'm not 100% about that. As for whether we call male/female by chromosomes or by SRY, from what I've seen so far, people in the field tend to use the SRY to define because that gives you the anatomy/physiology.

As for other chromosome combinations, they do exist, but not quite how they said. Y0 and YY are lethal. An X chromosome is always needed. XO is Turner which people can live with. XXY is Klinefelter which is probably the most famous sex aneuploidy which people also live with and one of the X's becomes redundant and isn't really used as much. There are also XXX superfemales and XYY supermales and others but YY is not a thing last time I checked (would have to mean two Y's from dad and nothing from mum, meaning two simultaneous unrelated events and any embryo wouldn't have the necessary X genes and would die anyway).

Hope this helps. If you want to take my word for it sweetas, if you want me to cite literature then you can jog on.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Gender is genetic.
Genetics plays a huge role in the sex development of people. That said not everyone is born with physical parts their genes suggest. For example I have "XX Male Syndrome" which means I am genetically female, but I was born male physically. Some women have XY chromosomes, more surprising is some people have more chromosomes for sex than others. Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome. But that doesn't define how we identify. We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example. While physical birth sex is often genetic, it doesn't control identity, or sexual preference for that matter.

Uhh, can you provide proof of this?
Because I'm quite sure that's not how genetics works.

Genetics Student here to help.

So geneticists have found the sex determining region of the Y chromosome (which we in the field like to call "the sex determining region of the Y chromosome" or SRY coz we're creative like that). However in some very rare cases the SRY can be moved to the X chromosome by nonhomologous recombination, where pieces of DNA are swapped unevenly between chromosomes, which means that there is the testis-determining factor (TDF) signal from an X chromosome rather than a Y chromosome like in most males. This means that the XX individuals can develop as males despite not having a Y chromosome. Likewise someone with XY could have lost the SRY and develop as female. I believe these individuals are infertile but I'm not 100% about that. As for whether we call male/female by chromosomes or by SRY, from what I've seen so far, people in the field tend to use the SRY to define because that gives you the anatomy/physiology.

As for other chromosome combinations, they do exist, but not quite how they said. Y0 and YY are lethal. An X chromosome is always needed. XO is Turner which people can live with. XXY is Klinefelter which is probably the most famous sex aneuploidy which people also live with and one of the X's becomes redundant and isn't really used as much. There are also XXX superfemales and XYY supermales and others but YY is not a thing last time I checked (would have to mean two Y's from dad and nothing from mum, meaning two simultaneous unrelated events and any embryo wouldn't have the necessary X genes and would die anyway).

Hope this helps. If you want to take my word for it sweetas, if you want me to cite literature then you can jog on.

Well after research I'm willing to stand corrected and count this as about the most definitive. Some references would help for people who don't quite get it, or need more info.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

SNIP

Hi, thanks for making this thread, I really appreciate you trying to help others understand. It'd be great if you could help me with three things.

1. What does it mean/feel like when you identify as your gender?
2. Do you feel like you need to define your gender (To say I am male/female/third gender etc rather than just I am me)?
3. What would you like to say to those who believe that you, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't have to categorise their gender/no-one should care about genders in the first place and you should just be yourself?

Hey Kyuubi,

I know that you've been busy/maybe you just don't want to answer the questions I've asked, but if possible I would appreciate it if you could answer them.

Cheers

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

SNIP

Hi, thanks for making this thread, I really appreciate you trying to help others understand. It'd be great if you could help me with three things.

1. What does it mean/feel like when you identify as your gender?
2. Do you feel like you need to define your gender (To say I am male/female/third gender etc rather than just I am me)?
3. What would you like to say to those who believe that you, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't have to categorise their gender/no-one should care about genders in the first place and you should just be yourself?

Hey Kyuubi,

I know that you've been busy/maybe you just don't want to answer the questions I've asked, but if possible I would appreciate it if you could answer them.

Cheers

Oh I'm happy to answer, but going back to earlier pages for and trying to do long answer posts keeps giving me the worst head aches, so I apologize for missing your question the first time around.

1: To answer this I'll have to also explain what gender dysphoria feels like. That is to say you don't feel right in your birth assigned sex, it feels wrong, your mind constantly tells you this, you see the opposite sex and you know that is how you should be. Then comes transition, when I began to move my physical self, roles, dress code, behaviour to that of the gender that I identify with. That was actually the most liberating and fulfilling thing I've experienced. Suddenly everything wasn't wrong for me, everything felt more natural for me, it felt right, something that had been so wrong, was now correct.

2: Well that question is a bit leading in a way... I am me, but at the same being transgender, being myself in the context of being a woman, my journey are the unique life experiences that all make up my identity. I can't make that go away, it's there with me forever, and even if I could, and did I wouldn't be the same person. I wouldn't be me.

3: That would be a much different world than the one we live in if it were possible. Unfortunately it's not the world we live in we categorize gender, we need to identify it, it's how we humans work. To most cisgender people this isn't really that important, they are mentally and physically the same, they actively function in a way that's natural to them. But it's still also their identity. For transgender people gender becomes very important, because we aren't the same on the physical level as we are in our minds, that's gender dysphoria, it makes an impact, and it makes gender identity extremely important. Gender identity for transgender people becomes something that needs validation, because for a long time in our lives we couldn't get it.

Now on a side note: For everyone I've missed thus far, I'll try to go back and get to more questions I've missed as soon as I feel up to it; however, if you're impatient you can post a perma link to the post with your question, or the question again, and I'll answer it as soon as I see it.

 

[Erttheking]

Well this thread went...surprisingly well. Yeesh, usually if anything related to sexuality, race or gender comes up the internet has a tendency to turn it into a flame war. Glad to see that this thread was an exception to the rule. Hell I even learned a few things from it. That's always a nice plus.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

Snip

The role of the therapist seems pretty straightforward in theory, very easily abused or mishandled in practice. How's the actual record on the ground?

To the second part, I have a couple of trans friends, and that's easy because first and foremost we're friends. What I find more perplexing would be strangers and casual encounters, the pronoun issues, that kind of thing. With my friends, I know what pronouns to use, and it's automatic. With someone who is OBVIOUSLY trans in some way, again it's pretty easy I think. With the subtler cases though, when I've expected people to not to take offense... that can get a little tricky.

You could modify your use of pronouns across the board, but realistically that makes you sound incredibly stilted to a vast majority of people you interact with personally and professionally. It's a nice idea, but kind of like Jive, language can't lead unless a LOT of people are on board. As you say, it's a definite "none of my business" situation, but after a while it can get awkward. The fact is that while my experience has been pretty good, I've seen some "wrong guess" situations. Contrary to the usual phobic image of course it never goes horribly wrong, but you don't want to see that cringe either, you know?

With transgender specialists the track record is pretty good, at least as far as I know, I don't have any hard stats, I've even had a pretty easy time with non-transgender specialists through out my life. In the latter case my mom's therapist was fantastic. Mishandling happens, usually if a therapist isn't open to the person and how they identify, abuse is rare, a therapist can't force their patient to do anything. At least not in most of the world as far as I've been lead to believe. Being transgender and seeing a therapist isn't like being put in an asylum, or on a 72 hour watch, it's just a doctor you visit, one who specializes in psychology. Therapists are there ideally to help not harm, any therapist that tries to prevent transition, or enforce a strict definition on definition isn't a good one. You can always dump a therapist and go look up another. I had to deal with that a couple of times myself. I actually had to change therapists at one point, and the next one tried to convince me to halt transition, to which I responded to by standing up and walking out on the session.

The safest bet with pronouns and gender identifiers is to use the ones that match the way the person is presenting. If they're presenting as a woman, use female pronouns, if they're presenting as a man use male ones. It can get difficult though I agree, but using those rules I've really only ever irritated gay drag queens, which boggles my mind, but then again they seem to get irritated at me for being trans anyways. The only other time this could be a problem is with trans people who haven't started transition at all, or with genderfluid and gender queer people. It's generally not a huge deal, and if they correct you all that's really needed is a sincere apology for the mistake.

If you need clarification on presenting, here it is: It's the way that somebody dresses and behaves in terms of gender identity. If you see someone you can tell is biologically male, but is wearing women's clothing, make up, and trying to pass as female, it's a safe bet to use female pronouns and identifiers with them.

On the other hand transmen can be absurdly tricky, because you can confuse a tomboy, or a butch lesbian for a transman rather easily. It's a safe bet that you're far more likely to run into butch lesbians or tomboyish women and girls than transmen. It could be safer in that case to use female pronouns if they look like a woman to you. Luckily basically every transman I've ever met passes really well, even early in transition.

But at any rate, a mix-up isn't going to be the end of the world, if someone gets upset, or corrects you, a sincere apology and acceptance of their position will usually repair the damage.

Edit: I should add something rather important. I pass, and well. When someone misgenders me, it's intentional, and it's designed to be an insult, that's when you'll see a trans person go off. An honest mistake is forgivable.

 

[Kwak]

You may have answered these already, and some of these are sort of the same question, so sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself.



What are the actual numbers on trans percentage? The internet makes it seem like there's actually a fairly large portion of the population (large in terms of of what you'd think would only affect a fairly small percentage otherwise) that are trans, but is that just because it's easier to make voices heard disproportionately over it?

Also it seems like it's only really become a 'thing' in the last couple of years - so what was it like ten, twenty years ago? Were the numbers different and has recent visibility of the the issue resulted in more people deciding they are trans, or has it always been thus and it's just now that their voices are being heard?

Somewhat related, did 'otherkin' only become a thing in the last few years or has that always been part of the queer world (if it is part of the queer world that is)?

Is it a mainly western phenomenon?

If it's polite to refer to a person face-to-face as their preferred gender (I agree), does this also extend to when they're not around? If I were talking about them to someone who didn't know them wouldn't it be fine to refer to them by the sex they were born with/genitals they possess?
Can I 'explain' to that person that while the other may appear to be male/female, 'really' they're female/male? Is this considered some grave offence against their chosen identity?

Was the outrage over Whedon referring to good female character's just being strong/interesting people who also happen to have a vagina, as ridiculous as it appears to me? If it was 'transphobic', please explain how.
Does that mean men who consider themselves women don't care about being a 'full' woman in that sense or even desire it?

Why is 'transphobic' used when a person has made a statement that is actually just insensitive or ignorant entirely to trans people's issues, rather than them being actually 'afraid' of trans people?

There are people who just wish to offend, and will find your weak spot and then keep pushing until you crack. Are these people transphobes or just equal-opportunity arseholes?

Is a man who knows they are a man and is comfortable with that, who then decides to become a woman, different to a man who feels they are in the wrong body? (would they still be considered 'trans' if they didn't have the 'gender dysphoria' part)
Is a person who is content to be in the sex of their body, but who presents as the opposite sex, trans? (I think this is all the same question)

Is making the full genital/hormonal transition to the sex they wish to be the goal of all trans people, if there were no restrictions money-wise or there weren't any other considerations to stop them?

Are trans people offended that they may not be understood, or do they understand that it is weird (not in a bad way, just weird) to a lot of people? Are trans people patient with innocent ignorance or are they offended by it and assume the worst? (it seems that way a little sometimes, that there is an over-sensitivity that is not at all empathic to the fact that most people just don't know and aren't familiar with this stuff)

Was it you who said they ride a motorbike? If so, what type is it?

Would you consider yourself an effeminate male, or a tomboy-ish female?

Thanks.

 

[Dismal purple]

snip

>What are the actual numbers on trans percentage?
I've tried looking this up but everyone gives different numbers. It's somewhere between 1 in 10.000 or 1 in 30.000 maybe. I've never knowingly met another transsexual in real life so it's rare.

>Also it seems like it's only really become a 'thing' in the last couple of years
It's more of a hot-topic now that most people have gotten over gay people and treatment is actually available. Social acceptance means that more people are willing to seek treatment but in theory the condition has always existed.

>Is it a mainly western phenomenon?
No.

>Somewhat related, did 'otherkin' only become a thing in the last few years or has that always been part of the queer world (if it is part of the queer world that is)?
They are not part of the queer community. "Otherkin" is not classified as a psychiatric disorder and it probably never will.

>If it's polite to refer to a person face-to-face as their preferred gender (I agree), does this also extend to when they're not around? If I were talking about them to someone who didn't know them wouldn't it be fine to refer to them by the sex they were born with/genitals they possess?
I can't speak for queer people. But in case of transsexuals, if they are not in the closet you should use the preferred pronouns at all times.

>Can I 'explain' to that person that while the other may appear to be male/female, 'really' they're female/male? Is this considered some grave offence against their chosen identity?
Your choice of words is the clumsiest choice of words possible and generally considered offensive, yes. Personally I'm fine with other people revealing that I'm trans like "Dismal Purple is transsexual and used to be a boy". But so far no one has done this, my friends insist that if anyone needs to know they should come ask me directly.

>Was the outrage over Whedon referring to good female character's just being strong/interesting people who also happen to have a vagina, as ridiculous as it appears to me?
I'm fine with the statement "all women have vaginas". Transgenders are outlier cases and need not be counted into the norm. Same way people who lack opposable thumbs doesn't need to be accounted for in the Wikipedia article for homo sapiens.

>Why is 'transphobic' used when a person has made a statement that is actually just insensitive or ignorant entirely to trans people's issues, rather than them being actually 'afraid' of trans people?
The word is misused the same way as homophobia is. I was friends with a guy who admitted to be homophobic in the traditional sense. He was uncomfortable dealing with me at the beginning but still believed in lgbt rights.

>Is a man who knows they are a man and is comfortable with that, who then decides to become a woman, different to a man who feels they are in the wrong body? (would they still be considered 'trans' if they didn't have the 'gender dysphoria' part)
The diagnostic criteria specifically mentions that you can't be doing it for ulterior reasons. There is no mention of a person doing it for literally no reason, but if they had no reason they would not be doing it so your example is highly theoretical and silly and I feel a little stupid for answering to be honest.

>Is a person who is content to be in the sex of their body, but who presents as the opposite sex, trans? (I think this is all the same question)
Not transsexual. Maybe some variation of transgender.

>Is making the full genital/hormonal transition to the sex they wish to be the goal of all trans people, if there were no restrictions money-wise or there weren't any other considerations to stop them?
For all transsexuals, yes.

>Are trans people offended that they may not be understood, or do they understand that it is weird (not in a bad way, just weird) to a lot of people?
Depends on how much of an idiot they are. As with all minorities it's a given that not everyone is going to understand me so I just deal with it.

 

[Arkham]

Somewhat related, did 'otherkin' only become a thing in the last few years or has that always been part of the queer world (if it is part of the queer world that is)?

Otherkin have been around since at least the early 2000's as far as I can tell. The phenomenon has grown alongside furries and the internet in general. I hesitate to group them with furries though. Certainly wouldn't group them with LGBT.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

That's a stupid attempt to refute a study showing that it's a fad, if someone expresses it and then withdrawls, how the fuck could that be because of others? Oh, and the fact that such a large percentage just HAPPENED to cease having gender dysphoria at the same developmental period is just a coincidence right? Do you even know what you're talking about? Are you really trying to pin this on the families? I don't know if you got the memo, but pretty much %80 of people in the US are in support of LGBT, so you're wrong m78. It's a fad for most people.

Which 'study'? It's been about ... oh? 5 years since I last was studying behavioural sciences and applied psychology. But from all the studies I've read you're looking at a 25% retention of gender incongruence of children into adolescence. By adolescence a lot of stuff concerning gender identity is actually reinforced. Which is why the longer it goes without examination, or liberty in promotion, then it continues to become a source of mental and social anguish.

Which is why treatment for gender incongruence should precipitate from examinations of the period from puberty onwards. Modern treatment practices in the West follow this also. If children continue to display gender dyphoria or gender incongruence in families where a gender identity synonymous of diagnosis from birth is treated as the only true 'self', and this persists into adolescence ... then they are likely to seek a form of transition if given social and financial ability to do so at some time in their life.

You also have to remember that the gender dysphoria that adolescents bear can be easily treated, and medically reversible, with puberty blockers until proper diagnosis and psychological assessment. It's also shown to be an effective means to provide temporary aid and psychological and physiological benefits to the recipient of such treatment, resulting in reduced depression, greater cognitive functioning, and reduced suicide risk rating.

It's not a 'fad'. It's also something that shouldn't be taken lightly, and requires approval by various medical professional as well as therapy and psychological assessment. There is a shit ton of checks and balances. And the system is better than it has ever been at determining the best possible avenues for every person presenting with gender incongruence at young ages. Also, just because some people go through GI and it's a phase, does not invalidate persistent adolescent GI. Some people may get over cancer, many people will not ... it doesn't make cancer-targeted treatment bad.

(Edit) Also, why not try listening to the OP? If I were any more suspicious I might posit that you're trying to get a thread locked of which has proven to have many different happy posters remark how it's helped them understand a thing or two that once seemed so mysterious to them. Whilst putting that forwards I might end up besmirching my clean record, but given that Kyuubi has been infinitely patient with people I'm willing to risk that bringing this point to the fore given she's done a world of good in enlightening others.

 

[Jake Torrance]

Why not ignore the trans thing altogether and just refer to yourself as a female? Personal irritation here, but I don't really understand the need to group yourself into "trans". I kinda just wish everyone would see people such as yourself as "girl" rather than "trans-girl" (btw, i'm not sure whether trans-girl is the correct terminology i.e not sure whether trans-girl is M->F, so sorry if i'm wrong on that part). I guess it's a meaning of preference, although i really think it would be great if we stopped grouping ourselves like that. I once had a chat with a trans friend of mine on whether she likes to be understood as trans or just a female - her answer was female. She did say that she previously felt like she should group herself into a trans-bracket, but I always saw that as saying that you aren't really who you are - just say you're female, there's no reason to say you're trans.

If you've already answered a question like this, i am sorry - not the kinda guy to go through this whole thread, just wondering what you thought on it.

EDIT: just looked in an other thread - this is my kinda problem with this, attacking someone cause they dislike the term "cisgender". Generally, I somewhat agree with the guy, as whenever the term is used it is used in a "you have a much better life than me you bastard" sense, which in some cases just really isn't true. Other than that, I personally hate the grouping, but to me it looks like you're grouping yourself as "abnormal" on your own volition - why. I don't see the need to come out on a thread and say you're trans, if you get what i mean. You're female, right, so why take the point that you're trans? why not just say you're just female rather than grouping yourself?

 

[Notshauna]

No one actually knows the percentage of transpeople, as to my knowledge there has been no wide scale surveys on the subject matter and the general clumsiness of most surveys offering a option from transpeople leads to few people actually checking it (most of them say male, female, transgender and most transpeople will just fill in their gender). Beyond that the actual number is even harder ascertain due to the high suicide rate, low acceptance rate and high desire to not out yourself.

It's been a thing forever, numerous ancient and pre-modern civilizations have members who identify as a gender opposite their sex, it's only becoming far more well known now.

It's universal, with it being generally more accepted in eastern cultures.

Otherkins are well their own thing, as is they're not part of LGBTQ and I know nothing about the subject matter. It's only considered related due to Tumblr.

You should go with their preferred pronouns regardless, the only exception is when they're not ready for a widespread usage of their preferred pronouns and then you should use the one in accordance to their sex. Ask them.

I mean I don't really know when you'd have to explain this but, the terminology to use are either sex based (they have male parts but are a woman) or using the term assigned (FAAB means female assigned at birth, or a person with female sex organs). But stick to transman if they're female to male (FtM) or transwoman if their male to female (MtF) as your go to.

Honestly it's mostly bullshit. It's different to equate being a woman with having a vagina, but it's not a problem to acknowledge that most women have vaginas. Same thing with the Vagina Monologues, it's okay as long as they aren't saying vagina = woman.

See Hydrophobic. It's not literal.

Honestly you wouldn't transition if you're happy with your assigned gender. But hypothetically such a person would get to the Estrogen part and start being extremely depressed, suicidal, etc. That's where they'd stop, no cisgender person would actively choose to go through gender dysphoria just because they feel like it.

No. Some people want to keep their genitals, others don't. Some want to transition hormonally, other's don't (I don't get this one). Others want to transition socially, others don't. It's pick and choose not everyone wants to go "all the way" but, everyone needs at least one.

I'm not offend by it, no. I get annoyed when people are closeminded about it, but it's something I accept. I don't care if anyone finds it weird, just if someone thinks less of transpeople.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Why not ignore the trans thing altogether and just refer to yourself as a female? Personal irritation here, but I don't really understand the need to group yourself into "trans". I kinda just wish everyone would see people such as yourself as "girl" rather than "trans-girl" (btw, i'm not sure whether trans-girl is the correct terminology i.e not sure whether trans-girl is M->F, so sorry if i'm wrong on that part). I guess it's a meaning of preference, although i really think it would be great if we stopped grouping ourselves like that. I once had a chat with a trans friend of mine on whether she likes to be understood as trans or just a female - her answer was female. She did say that she previously felt like she should group herself into a trans-bracket, but I always saw that as saying that you aren't really who you are - just say you're female, there's no reason to say you're trans.

Well, surely that would only work once society as a whole has accepted trans people, which currently is not the case at all?

 

[Jake Torrance]

Why not ignore the trans thing altogether and just refer to yourself as a female? Personal irritation here, but I don't really understand the need to group yourself into "trans". I kinda just wish everyone would see people such as yourself as "girl" rather than "trans-girl" (btw, i'm not sure whether trans-girl is the correct terminology i.e not sure whether trans-girl is M->F, so sorry if i'm wrong on that part). I guess it's a meaning of preference, although i really think it would be great if we stopped grouping ourselves like that. I once had a chat with a trans friend of mine on whether she likes to be understood as trans or just a female - her answer was female. She did say that she previously felt like she should group herself into a trans-bracket, but I always saw that as saying that you aren't really who you are - just say you're female, there's no reason to say you're trans.

Well, surely that would only work once society as a whole has accepted trans people, which currently is not the case at all?

It's practically impossible to know if someone is trans or not, although branding yourself definitely makes it a lot easier. You kinda voided the whole point of my question anyway, there are trans people out there who don't sit there and say "i'm trans".

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

It's practically impossible to know if someone is trans or not, although branding yourself definitely makes it a lot easier. You kinda voided the whole point of my question anyway, there are trans people out there who don't sit there and say "i'm trans".

I don't. No many who are trans will, likely. That being said, I have transgender pride stuff on me. I have a transgender pride keyring, transgender pride sticker on my laptop. If trans people were treated with equality, then it wouldn't matter but given that trans people aren'tyou need a word to highlight the problems of trans people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. As per the quality of their self and the nature of their being, they are men and women as per how they present and declare affiliation, but they are trans in order to determine the problems that they may face.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Was it you who said they ride a motorbike? If so, what type is it?

Would you consider yourself an effeminate male, or a tomboy-ish female?

Thanks.

I ride a motorbike, so that might have been me? I talk about it a lot on the forums. XJ600, and I'm genderqueer. Sometimes I present as a boy, sometimes (mostly) present as a girl. Well, woman. 30 years old is not ma'am territory, but it's getting pretty close. Give it 10 more years.

But it's a fairly effete male, and a pretty girly female. Depends how I feel when I wake up, but I ride regardless.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

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That's a stupid attempt to refute a study showing that it's a fad, if someone expresses it and then withdrawls, how the fuck could that be because of others? Oh, and the fact that such a large percentage just HAPPENED to cease having gender dysphoria at the same developmental period is just a coincidence right? Do you even know what you're talking about? Are you really trying to pin this on the families? I don't know if you got the memo, but pretty much %80 of people in the US are in support of LGBT, so you're wrong m78. It's a fad for most people.

First off your last part was condescending and dismissive. I know a lot of trans people and I've never met one aside from my self so far that didn't have their parents at least try to put the kibosh on them expressing their gender identity that's opposite their birth sex. You say that there is a Lot of LGBT support in the US, which is true, it's too bad that essentially Transgender is excluded. I mean LGB part gets plenty of support, most people are at least openly tolerant of gay males, lesbian females, and Bisexuals, this means that most people on some level accept it. Most transgender people more often not get ridiculed or told they're wrong when they come out, if not out right abused, especially when they come out before the age of twenty. This can, more often than not, result in them going straight back into the closet, and staying there for a long time. Plus you factor in when a trans person does have parents that accept them, but either can't, or won't get them treatment. Can't is usually a financial thing. If you want to transition but can't it's torture, and presenting at a school ages will get you teased relentlessly, and bullied by people who really aren't bullies usually. As much as LGBT has moved foreword, the transgender community has been left behind. Plus what PaulH said is entirely true too. Also most transgender people aren't open about being trans, weather, or not they have transitioned, because it's dangerous as hell. Seriously trans murder and suicide rates are appallingly high even in enlightened countries in the west. So it can look like the gender dysphoria went away, but in actuality, they just went back into the closet because people don't understand yet, and treat us as walking jokes usually at best.

Now I have other posts to address so please kindly understand, it's not a "fad" that people go back into the closet after coming out, just because of people not understanding, and being treated like crap because few do understand being the norm. This happened to gay, lesbian, and bisexual people coming out all up into the ninties and 2000's even too. So it's not exclusive to the trans community, when you're met with hurtful attitudes for being yourself, then most people just try to act "normal," even though they're not.

 

[Jake Torrance]

It's practically impossible to know if someone is trans or not, although branding yourself definitely makes it a lot easier. You kinda voided the whole point of my question anyway, there are trans people out there who don't sit there and say "i'm trans".

I don't. No many who are trans will, likely. That being said, I have transgender pride stuff on me. I have a transgender pride keyring, transgender pride sticker on my laptop. If trans people were treated with equality, then it wouldn't matter but given that trans people aren'tyou need a word to highlight the problems of trans people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. As per the quality of their self and the nature of their being, they are men and women as per how they present and declare affiliation, but they are trans in order to determine the problems that they may face.

it's understandable, but i guess my main problem with this is i just simply disagree with grouping yourself in the first place, in any form. I guess my question is much better suited to societal groups at whole rather than just trans people.

No worries.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Oh this is gonna be a dozy of a post, and I apologize in advance if this ends up being a double post.

You may have answered these already, and some of these are sort of the same question, so sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself.

That's all right, I'm used to repeating myself, and I like to help others understand.

What are the actual numbers on trans percentage? The internet makes it seem like there's actually a fairly large portion of the population (large in terms of of what you'd think would only affect a fairly small percentage otherwise) that are trans, but is that just because it's easier to make voices heard disproportionately over it?

I've heard like less than 1% to 4-5%, but no one really knows, and there are no really good statistics on transgender subjects to be truthful. Along with that, a lot of people are more open about the subject on the internet than in person, because we are still victims of rampant abuse in the real world. Plus I'll admit that trans people are super vocal on the internet, it really is a safe outlet, and because of that it can make it look like there are more of us than there actually are.

Also it seems like it's only really become a 'thing' in the last couple of years - so what was it like ten, twenty years ago? Were the numbers different and has recent visibility of the the issue resulted in more people deciding they are trans, or has it always been thus and it's just now that their voices are being heard?

Well we've gained more acceptance over time and with the internet and such we've gained a much bigger voice than we had before. This means that yes we're more visible, and it also means that there is more support in the trans community, so more trans people are actually coming out, rather than living in misery. But we've always been here, it's just that understanding and acceptance has improved, and we have a safe place(the internet) to come out.

Somewhat related, did 'otherkin' only become a thing in the last few years or has that always been part of the queer world (if it is part of the queer world that is)?

I'm not the best person to answer this. I know a few otherkin but I don't know if they count, or count them selves as part of the larger grouping that homosexual and transgender people fall into.

Is it a mainly western phenomenon?

No it's world wide actually, lots of places in Asia for example are open to the concept of people living in non-gender conforming roles.

If it's polite to refer to a person face-to-face as their preferred gender (I agree), does this also extend to when they're not around? If I were talking about them to someone who didn't know them wouldn't it be fine to refer to them by the sex they were born with/genitals they possess?

When a trans person isn't around you refer to them the same as you would face to face, it's best to try to see us actually as the gender we are inside, not in body.

Can I 'explain' to that person that while the other may appear to be male/female, 'really' they're female/male? Is this considered some grave offence against their chosen identity?

It's a really bad thing to do actually, outing a trans person against their will is a massive violation of their trust. Most people don't get this and a lot of my "cishet" friends accidentally out me all the time. Then they see the look that puts on my face(almost about to cry) and realize what they did, and how much it hurt both to my self esteem and to my trust, then fall all over them selves to fix it. But if it's agreed before hand to let a friend know that another friend is trans with the trans person in question's permission, then do it. But make sure you ram home that the trans person is the gender that they feel they are. Transmen are men, transwomen are women, genderfluid are what ever they project at the time, just for example.

Was the outrage over Whedon referring to good female character's just being strong/interesting people who also happen to have a vagina, as ridiculous as it appears to me? If it was 'transphobic', please explain how.

At this point I'm not going to say it was transphobic, it was bad wording that really struck a sensitive nerve in the trans community, and being a sensitive community we got really mad about it. What it really was exclusionary of transwomen as women, and we absolutely hate that.

Does that mean men who consider themselves women don't care about being a 'full' woman in that sense or even desire it?

No we do care, quite a lot. All trans people are the gender we are in our minds, nature and fate just dropped the ball and gave us the wrong bodies. Well that's to put it in layman's terms. But it depends on the trans person. Like if tomorrow science and medicine could make people biologically the opposite sex, I don't know if I'd do it, but tons of transwomen and transmen would jump at the chance, others wouldn't. Some people are too used to their, or not too picky about the parts they have, or lack.

Why is 'transphobic' used when a person has made a statement that is actually just insensitive or ignorant entirely to trans people's issues, rather than them being actually 'afraid' of trans people?

Transphobic and transphobia apply to more than just irrational fear, it's also irrational hate, and irrational unwillingness to to drop ignorant, or bigoted views. Same with homophobia. But this is used way too often as an attack term, rather than a stern disapproval of someone's stance.

There are people who just wish to offend, and will find your weak spot and then keep pushing until you crack. Are these people transphobes or just equal-opportunity arseholes?

Both actually, and the two aren't mutually exclusive. But someone who is an areshole in general will be an arsehole to everyone, transphobes will just target arseholeishness at trans people.

Is a man who knows they are a man and is comfortable with that, who then decides to become a woman, different to a man who feels they are in the wrong body? (would they still be considered 'trans' if they didn't have the 'gender dysphoria' part)

If somebody goes to those lengths to change their body, you can bet they're uncomfortable with their body somehow. But yes they'd still be trans even if not gender dysphoric.

Is a person who is content to be in the sex of their body, but who presents as the opposite sex, trans? (I think this is all the same question)

Yes they are, there are many different kinds of trans people. Genderqueer, bigender, agender, genderfluid are all examples of transgender, look at the identities listed here for more [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender]

Is making the full genital/hormonal transition to the sex they wish to be the goal of all trans people, if there were no restrictions money-wise or there weren't any other considerations to stop them?

I have transitioned to the point I want but I still have my primary genital(penis), so no it's not the goal of all transgender people. There are many different kinds of trans and different goals for each trans person. Some never get hormones, some do, some get surgeries some eschew them all together. It depends on what is necessary in out transition to make us feel like the person we are.

Are trans people offended that they may not be understood, or do they understand that it is weird (not in a bad way, just weird) to a lot of people? Are trans people patient with innocent ignorance or are they offended by it and assume the worst? (it seems that way a little sometimes, that there is an over-sensitivity that is not at all empathic to the fact that most people just don't know and aren't familiar with this stuff)

We understand that we're different and not understanding can be offensive to us, but mostly it's just really upsetting. Most trans people will generally forgive innocent ignorant mistakes, and do tend to be patient in my experience with people who are willing to listen. Sometimes though we do assume the worst, but that's because of how many people in general mistreat us intentionally, sensitive group and all.

Was it you who said they ride a motorbike? If so, what type is it?

Would you consider yourself an effeminate male, or a tomboy-ish female?

That was PaulH, so look to the post PaulH made in response. As for me I'm a girly girl type.

Thanks.

You're very welcome.

Why not ignore the trans thing altogether and just refer to yourself as a female? Personal irritation here, but I don't really understand the need to group yourself into "trans". I kinda just wish everyone would see people such as yourself as "girl" rather than "trans-girl" (btw, i'm not sure whether trans-girl is the correct terminology i.e not sure whether trans-girl is M->F, so sorry if i'm wrong on that part). I guess it's a meaning of preference, although i really think it would be great if we stopped grouping ourselves like that. I once had a chat with a trans friend of mine on whether she likes to be understood as trans or just a female - her answer was female. She did say that she previously felt like she should group herself into a trans-bracket, but I always saw that as saying that you aren't really who you are - just say you're female, there's no reason to say you're trans.

If you've already answered a question like this, i am sorry - not the kinda guy to go through this whole thread, just wondering what you thought on it.

EDIT: just looked in an other thread - this is my kinda problem with this, attacking someone cause they dislike the term "cisgender". Generally, I somewhat agree with the guy, as whenever the term is used it is used in a "you have a much better life than me you bastard" sense, which in some cases just really isn't true. Other than that, I personally hate the grouping, but to me it looks like you're grouping yourself as "abnormal" on your own volition - why. I don't see the need to come out on a thread and say you're trans, if you get what i mean. You're female, right, so why take the point that you're trans? why not just say you're just female rather than grouping yourself?

It actually varries trans person to trans person. I'm a transwoman, but that also means I'm a woman, but being trans is part of my identity because of how major transitioning has affected my life in quality and experiences. I'm a trans pride type too, so there's that. Some people are more stealth, and would just rather be the gender they transitioned to. We;re all different like that. Also transgirl or transwoman are perfectly fine ways to refer to a MtF person, MtF and it's variants are starting to become seen as negative.

Also it's no problem, the more answers I give, even if I have to repeat my self, the more likely they are to be seen.

To your edit: Cisgender and cis are supposed to be ways to classify people who's gender identity match their birth sex, not attacks, or resentful terms. There is a bit of internal "other"ing in the trans community because we know we're not the same as most people. Also normal can be a loaded term for everyone, for example; saying I'm a normal man/woman rather than a cis/cisgender man/woman, is excluding to trans people. Remember that a lot of trans people have transgender as part of their identity, while a lot don't, and a lot just don't care that much. Usung trans and cis are not ment to make either group abnormal, it's supposed to be a way to clarify weather or not someone is suffering, or has suffered from gender dysphoria. But yeah it is often used out of bitterness and spite. Also like I said trans pride plays a large part in identifying one's self as trans.

I hope that helps.